782 réponses à ce sujet

[karushna5]

In practical terms, they are. This isn't a textbook.

 

If BioWare put in a transgender "female" character for straight male protagonists to romance, I can guarantee you that male players would largely not be including "her" as a straight option.
 

Likewise, if you have a character that's asexual, players are going to be unhappy and conclude they've had one of their options taken away from them.

 

Can you not put quotes like that around the pronouns? There are several Trans people part of this board, and there is no need to cause additional stress to real people when talking about fictional ones.

 

Many people disliked Josephine for the chasteness of her romance, but many people also enjoyed her. While she is not asexual, her romance could be considered that way. It goes all around.

[BabyPuncher]

First of all, I didn't argue that BioWare shouldn't include such romances.

 

Secondly, players 'liking' the options is a variable we have to consider. Romance is more about a checkmark being put in a box. If BioWare consistently made straight romances with beautiful, intelligent, elegant characters and gay romances with ugly, obese imbeciles, somehow I don't think you'd be very quick to advocate that things are fair because despite players 'feeling' that gay romances aren't as good, the box has been checked. That things are fair because you've been 'given options.'

[avenging_teabag]

The best way for Bioware to handle the romances in ME: A would be not to include any romances at all.

 

Bam! Problem solved. No squabbling about who is gay for whom and which love interest is superior, no whining about any particular "***sexuals* not being "represented" or represented enough, tons of resources freed to be used on something that is actually worthwhile, and hopefully a few sad nerds going out and maybe getting a real love interest instead of a digital one.

 

I say that would be a net positive for humanity.

[daveliam]

Those are two different criteria. Both are important aspects. Quality v quantity. You can make an argument that one is more important than the other, but that's subjective.

[BabyPuncher]

Can you not put quotes like that around the pronouns? There are several Trans people part of this board, and there is no need to cause additional stress to real people when talking about fictional ones.

 

Well, you've asked that a lot more politely that most people concerned about that sort of thing on the internet...I do appreciate that.

 

But when I'm writing these posts about transgender characters, I'm at minimum questioning and often outright rejecting their validity as their chosen gender in certain roles. I mean, that's what these posts are. That's what I'm doing. To use that sort of language when I'm arguing such things comes across as...kind of a two-faced facade. Smiling, and then turning right around and badmouthing them. Wouldn't it be better to just be honest? Not pretend to be inclusive and immediately take it away?

 

I wish there was a politer way of doing this to oblige you. But...I don't really see any other options.

[Pee Jae]

I've said for a while now that I think all romance-able characters should be bisexual. That may not make sense realistically, but it would make sure that no one is left out. This is a video game, not a real life simulator. Removing options or not including them takes away player agency.

 

As far as nudity goes, I think DAI got it pretty spot on. I never want to see another character taking a shower in their underwear. As far as the actual bed/after sex scenes go, that's fine. But, I'd prefer scenes like Sera/Quizzy. Or Dorian/Quizzy or Bull/Quizzy.

 

Also, I agree about the option to not have sex without necessarily making your partner angry or sad, as though you turned them away. Just a "Let's not, just yet" option. They could kiss, the scene would fade to black and that's that.

[KaiserShep]

The best way for Bioware to handle the romances in ME: A would be not to include any romances at all.

 

Bam! Problem solved. No squabbling about who is gay for whom and which love interest is superior, no whining about any particular "***sexuals* not being "represented" or represented enough, tons of resources freed to be used on something that is actually worthwhile, and hopefully a few sad nerds going out and maybe getting a real love interest instead of a digital one.

 

I say that would be a net positive for humanity.

 

Yeah, but who really truly cares about the squabbling anyway? When I buy these games, I'll come online to amuse myself and be amused by a lot of what people are typing, but it generally has no real effect on how I feel about the actual product. I can say this with some level of certainty, though: if the games were to be pared down to just their combat, the forum would probably be much less active overall (and frankly the game would probably be less interesting too). Whether or not that's a good thing is a matter of personal preference, but me, I rather like watching everyone get twisted up about optional content, be it the diehard romance enthusiasts, or the people that argue against it. Maybe I just enjoy arguing in general. The more reasons to do so, the better XD

[9TailsFox]

I've said for a while now that I think all romance-able characters should be bisexual. That may not make sense realistically, but it would make sure that no one is left out. This is a video game, not a real life simulator. Removing options or not including them takes away player agency.

 

As far as nudity goes, I think DAI got it pretty spot on. I never want to see another character taking a shower in their underwear. As far as the actual bed/after sex scenes go, that's fine. But, I'd prefer scenes like Sera/Quizzy. Or Dorian/Quizzy or Bull/Quizzy.

 

Also, I agree about the option to not have sex without necessarily making your partner angry or sad, as though you turned them away. Just a "Let's not, just yet" option. They could kiss, the scene would fade to black and that's that.

I don't know if you see but Cass and Inquisitor scene was done good. after sex they just lying on ground naked and talking.

Spoiler

 

And "Let's not, just yet" works for some character but try say this to Isabela.

Spoiler

[Gramorla]

I think the small details are important to make a ig romance fell more realistic.

 

Let's other ppl of the ship crew chat about it when you walk on by.

Let the NPC, the main character is involved with, act more familiar with the protagonist.

Distribute small message in the dialog that he (or she) habe some kind of intimate everyday life routine.

Let specifically the alien LI express her (or his) confusion with the human sleeping pattern, eating habits etc. Some hints that the characters have some involvement with the main charakter beyond the time the player experienced ig.

Let the LI "forgott" some things in the MC cabin.

 

I liked it as the LI responded differently to the Leviathan (DLC) mission. By comparison that Shep was all alone on Omega (DLC) and no one on the normandy say something about it.

 

 

I hope my abba english is somehow understandable

[Grieving Natashina]

I think the small details are important to make a ig romance fell more realistic.

 

Let's other ppl of the ship crew chat about it when you walk on by.

Let the NPC, the main character is involved with, act more familiar with the protagonist.

Distribute small message in the dialog that he (or she) habe some kind of intimate everyday life routine.

Let specifically the alien LI express her (or his) confusion with the human sleeping pattern, eating habits etc. Some hints that the characters have some involvement with the main charakter beyond the time the player experienced ig.

Let the LI "forgott" some things in the MC cabin.

 

I liked it as the LI responded differently to the Leviathan (DLC) mission. By comparison that Shep was all alone on Omega (DLC) and no one on the normandy say something about it.

 

 

I hope my abba english is somehow understandable

You're just fine.  I've seen native speakers do a lot worse.  

 

I like your suggestions.  I love the idea of having those kinds of conversations within the friendship arcs of the game.  I also think it would do a lot of flesh out some of the romances.  It's those tiny details that can really make all of the difference.  

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

They should all be player sexual, or at the start of the game lets the player choose what sex they are attracted to.

[Sartoz]

First of all, I didn't argue that BioWare shouldn't include such romances.

 

Secondly, players 'liking' the options is a variable we have to consider. Romance is more about a checkmark being put in a box. If BioWare consistently made straight romances with beautiful, intelligent, elegant characters and gay romances with ugly, obese imbeciles, somehow I don't think you'd be very quick to advocate that things are fair because despite players 'feeling' that gay romances aren't as good, the box has been checked. That things are fair because you've been 'given options.'

 

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A good reason why including romance is a mine field.

[daveliam]

I think the small details are important to make a ig romance fell more realistic.

 

Let's other ppl of the ship crew chat about it when you walk on by.

Let the NPC, the main character is involved with, act more familiar with the protagonist.

Distribute small message in the dialog that he (or she) habe some kind of intimate everyday life routine.

Let specifically the alien LI express her (or his) confusion with the human sleeping pattern, eating habits etc. Some hints that the characters have some involvement with the main charakter beyond the time the player experienced ig.

Let the LI "forgott" some things in the MC cabin.

 

I liked it as the LI responded differently to the Leviathan (DLC) mission. By comparison that Shep was all alone on Omega (DLC) and no one on the normandy say something about it.

 

 

I hope my abba english is somehow understandable

 

ME3 did this with Kaidan a bit.  I remember one of his banter lines on the Normandy saying something like "You were so peaceful this morning that I didn't want to wake you."  It was a nice touch to show that Shep and Kaidan were actually having a relationship beyond the 3-4 romance-based cut scenes.  I loved it and would love to see it more.

 

                                                                           <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

A good reason why including romance is a mine field.

 

it's really not, though.  As much as people grumble and complain about it.  Very few people stop buying the games because of romances.  The "minefield" is really just superfans arguing on the message boards.  The reality is that romances don't hurt their bottom line in any way.  In fact, they've developed a unique, loyal audience because of them.  As much as people want to paint romances as these highly divisive things, they are really not.

[Panda]

The best way for Bioware to handle the romances in ME: A would be not to include any romances at all.

 

Bam! Problem solved. No squabbling about who is gay for whom and which love interest is superior, no whining about any particular "***sexuals* not being "represented" or represented enough, tons of resources freed to be used on something that is actually worthwhile, and hopefully a few sad nerds going out and maybe getting a real love interest instead of a digital one.

 

I say that would be a net positive for humanity.

 

I would not think that people would be any happier without romances, quite much opposite. There would be tons of threads people asking romances back. Also romances are my main reason to replay Bioware's games and one reason why I rank them above other games I have played so without that part Bioware would lose big part of what people like in their games.

 

I've said for a while now that I think all romance-able characters should be bisexual. That may not make sense realistically, but it would make sure that no one is left out. This is a video game, not a real life simulator. Removing options or not including them takes away player agency.

 

As far as nudity goes, I think DAI got it pretty spot on. I never want to see another character taking a shower in their underwear. As far as the actual bed/after sex scenes go, that's fine. But, I'd prefer scenes like Sera/Quizzy. Or Dorian/Quizzy or Bull/Quizzy.

 

Also, I agree about the option to not have sex without necessarily making your partner angry or sad, as though you turned them away. Just a "Let's not, just yet" option. They could kiss, the scene would fade to black and that's that.

 

 I think both all bisexual or playersexual and all different sexualities both have their pro's and con's, but I just don't think Bioware is going to go with all bisexual anymore.

[Sartoz]

Can you not put quotes like that around the pronouns? There are several Trans people part of this board, and there is no need to cause additional stress to real people when talking about fictional ones.

 

Many people disliked Josephine for the chasteness of her romance, but many people also enjoyed her. While she is not asexual, her romance could be considered that way. It goes all around.

 

                                                                             <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Hmm...

First, the word female is a noun and an adjective.

For example:

(1) a female lion. = adjective and

(2)  It was determined that the hand print was that of a female = noun.

 

So, what's wrong with using quotes?  For example:

In a story there is the case of a woman dressed up as a man to hide from the authorities. This "man", unfortunately, showed a certain odd walking style... perfectly legitimate characterization in describing the walk. and the use of quotes.

 

Edit: for clarity

[Chealec]

We're talking hundreds if not thousands of years in the future... why would any modern-day standard of "romance" be applicable? It's not like you can transport current "western" social trends, with regards to relationships or much else really, back 2000-3000 years and apply them in the same way.

 

The original trilogy was only about 150 years in the future - it's quite possible that hang-ups from now are still around but ME:A is set an undisclosed amount further into the future, in another galaxy.

 

If there was a generation ship or colony fleet it's quite possible that attitudes to sex and relationships may have changed dramatically in that time... might be more like the Quarian outlook where only one child is allowed per family so as not to further strain the resources of the Migrant Fleet. Could be some kind of VI / artificial solution has presented itself so that sex is no longer considered clean or healthy and instead stem cells are simply implanted into eggs which are grown in vats or something; all relationships have become basically platonic.

 

Or maybe a population crash at some point during the migration made it so that no couple was allowed to remain together for more than a few years to help maintain genetic diversity; every relationship is polyamorous.

 

Want to make relationships "better" in a sci-fi setting? Put some thought into the society as a whole that's evolved and fit the social norm for relationships to that new society.

[The Heretic of Time]

Can you not put quotes like that around the pronouns? There are several Trans people part of this board, and there is no need to cause additional stress to real people when talking about fictional ones.

 

 

 

In the era where people think gender is a choice or a social construct, it's completely normal to be wary of "transgender" people. It's perfectly normal and acceptable to put "female" in quotation marks when talking about a transgender "woman".

 

It's also perfectly acceptable for a straight guy not wanting to romance a transgender "woman" and many straight men would feel tricked or duped if they're not warned beforehand that they're dating someone with a Y chromosome.

[Sartoz]

ME3 did this with Kaidan a bit.  I remember one of his banter lines on the Normandy saying something like "You were so peaceful this morning that I didn't want to wake you."  It was a nice touch to show that Shep and Kaidan were actually having a relationship beyond the 3-4 romance-based cut scenes.  I loved it and would love to see it more.

 

 

it's really not, though.  As much as people grumble and complain about it.  Very few people stop buying the games because of romances.  The "minefield" is really just superfans arguing on the message boards.  The reality is that romances don't hurt their bottom line in any way.  In fact, they've developed a unique, loyal audience because of them.  As much as people want to paint romances as these highly divisive things, they are really not.

 

                                                                           <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

I was referring to the generated dissonance in the boards. Romances are subjective by nature and thus seen/perceived  from a personal view.  My response was a reaction to another poster who objected to another's writing the word female in quotes as in "female".  I also replied to the objector, which may generated more "dissonance"... oh well...

 

But, I do agree with your sentiment, which implies that Bio can't allow themselves to be dictated by the message boards.

[themikefest]

I think the small details are important to make a ig romance fell more realistic.

 

Let's other ppl of the ship crew chat about it when you walk on by.

Let the NPC, the main character is involved with, act more familiar with the protagonist.

Distribute small message in the dialog that he (or she) habe some kind of intimate everyday life routine.

Let specifically the alien LI express her (or his) confusion with the human sleeping pattern, eating habits etc. Some hints that the characters have some involvement with the main charakter beyond the time the player experienced ig.

Let the LI "forgott" some things in the MC cabin.

 

I liked it as the LI responded differently to the Leviathan (DLC) mission. By comparison that Shep was all alone on Omega (DLC) and no one on the normandy say something about it.

 

 

I hope my abba english is somehow understandable

The one thing that would've made Sam's romance really good is to give her a hug after sanctuary. Remember she was on Horizon when the collectors attack and there's a good possibility that her parents are dead after the events on Sanctuary.  If anybody deserved a hug it was her. 

[daveliam]

It's also perfectly acceptable for a straight guy not wanting to romance a transgender "woman" and many straight men would feel tricked or duped if they're not warned beforehand that they're dating someone with a Y chromosome.

 

Who said anything about a transwoman "tricking" a straight guy into a romance?  I do agree that it's perfectly fine for someone not to want to romance a transwoman.  To each his/her own, I say.  No one should tell you who you should or shouldn't be attracted to.

[avenging_teabag]

I would not think that people would be any happier without romances, quite much opposite. There would be tons of threads people asking romances back. Also romances are my main reason to replay Bioware's games and one reason why I rank them above other games I have played so without that part Bioware would lose big part of what people like in their games.

 

Those people will only be unhappy at first, not unlike drug addicts left without their poison of choice, then most of them would realize what a load of unchewable pap they were fed in the form of "romances" (believe me, I used to enjoy them as well, the time that I can't now think about without to hide under my deck in embarrassment). Soon those people will feel liberated that they are no longer bound by choosing which one of equally cringeworthy pick up lines to click and which embarrassingly bad quality digital movie to watch. They shall be free. Those that won't, well, nothing of value would be lost with them anyway.

 

Besides, that could possibly attract quite a bit of new fans to the franchise, which are now scared of Bioware fandom's reputation as the colon cancer of the gaming world. And let's face it, the primary culprits responsible for that are romance nutjobs.

[The Heretic of Time]

Who said anything about a transwoman "tricking" a straight guy into a romance?  I do agree that it's perfectly fine for someone not to want to romance a transwoman.  To each his/her own, I say.  No one should tell you who you should or shouldn't be attracted to.

 

I'm glad we agree on that. 

 

As for tricking someone into romance: Well, if the trans-person doesn't tell beforehand that he/she is trans then that would be tricking someone into romance.

 

As for the 2/2/2 quota that some people are talking about (including you I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong):

 

I think it's nonsense to hold BioWare to such quotas. Even if they would make 2 straight, 2 gay and 2 bisexual romance options then it still wouldn't be "fair" or please everyone.
For example some people aren't attracted to aliens, so making some of the romance options aliens would already strike out some of the options for some people.
Other people aren't attracted to black people. So if the only human romance option is a black person then the people who are neither attracted to aliens nor black people would be shit out of luck (point in case: femShep's romance options in ME2, which made a lot of people unhappy).

Basically my point is: you're never going to make all people happy, so if I was BioWare, I'd just not give a damn about quotas or representation or any such thing. I'd just write cool, well-written and believable characters and make some of them romance options but only if it fits their personality and character arc.

Tough luck for the people who don't have their perfect waifu or manfu as a romance option. Maybe those people should just play different games (e.g. dating sims or something along those lines) instead of trying to get their romance fix in an action-RPG.

[PhroXenGold]

I'm not a huge fan of evenly balanced quotas or such. I'd much prefer BW went in the the mindset of "we're going to write the characters we want, and just see how it falls". I can possibly support a degree of predefining the characters in order to ensure that each of the four "base" alignments are catered to with at least one option, but making the rest of them evenly balanced always feels a little forced. It's possible, but it certainly seems a little artificial, and thus less immersive, if your companions are perfectly balanced with their sexual preferences.

 

Just to add, I wouldn't object if it just happens that the writers end up writing characters with an even balance of sexualities and preferences. But it should be a matter of the characters they want to write turning out that way as a result of their personalities and character, not a matter of them deliberately balancing things and writing the characters on that basis.

[Lumix19]

I'm not a huge fan of evenly balanced quotas or such. I'd much prefer BW went in the the mindset of "we're going to write the characters we want, and just see how it falls". I can possibly support a degree of predefining the characters in order to ensure that each of the four "base" alignments are catered to with at least one option, but making the rest of them evenly balanced always feels a little forced. It's possible, but it certainly seems a little artificial, and thus less immersive, if your companions are perfectly balanced with their sexual preferences.

It's a bit of a toss-up isn't it? Are we looking for diversification of roles and possible story arcs (hence RPG) or realism?

[Panda]

Those people will only be unhappy at first, not unlike drug addicts left without their poison of choice, then most of them would realize what a load of unchewable pap they were fed in the form of "romances" (believe me, I used to enjoy them as well, the time that I can't now think about without to hide under my deck in embarrassment). Soon those people will feel liberated that they are no longer bound by choosing which one of equally cringeworthy pick up lines to click and which embarrassingly bad quality digital movie to watch. They shall be free. Those that won't, well, nothing of value would be lost with them anyway.

 

Besides, that could possibly attract quite a bit of new fans to the franchise, which are now scared of Bioware fandom's reputation as the colon cancer of the gaming world. And let's face it, the primary culprits responsible for that are romance nutjobs.

 

I don't really agree with this, lol. Surely some things I have thought as cool younger don't feel like that anymore, but that's just changing intrests that people have. Taking accord how many different kinds of people, from different genders, age groups, countries and so on like Bioware's romance content I don't really think there will some kind of "wake-up" how it was silly or bad.

 

Also I think Bioware's fandom is not that notorious and if it is I'd say that some people might see it infested with SJW's, just based on how lot of gamers are against of female players and other minorities saying anything in terms of they don't like in games and gaming culture.. but that's talk for different kind of threads.