782 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiemoth]

And almost all the high NPCs in the games in high position are females. Bioware themselves said that they made it up with the number of females we encounter in the game as well. It's not just romance. 

 

I don't care about either ME3 or DAI distribution, but don't complain about one but accept the other because I find it to be very hypocritical. I don't sugarcoat and make it seem more or less than what it is. I find problems in both games' distribution and hope they fix it in the next game. 

 

For the first part, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The romances are with the party members and advisors, where the gender balance of those two skews towards men. As a consequence there are more options for straight women romance options. To ignore that is to ignore the context of the decision. I'm not defending it, I'm not justifying it, I am simply pointing out that there it is a logical result of a party gender distribution which was not necessarily complained by the same people when it first came out than when they found out about the romance distribution.

[9TailsFox]

I mean she is bi but prefers women for now. I don't quite understand what you mean here, but I totally get the way I said that was confusing. I mean the opposite because she talks as if she is bi but not interested in girls right now from her dialogue. I meant she is bi but not interested in guys right now, so not actually a lesbian, but funcionally one gameplay wise

Jack is not bi. She just had sex with female.

[9TailsFox]

It will be a real improvement, i think. So far i love all the companions personality, but it should be more challenging and rewarding if it was not that easy to get access to their heart. Not all of them at least. But that also mean more investment, more time, more money. So i support the 2/2/2 (humans) + 1 (alliens). or 4 humans. 2 straight (male/female) 1 bi (female) 1 gay (male) and 3 alliens that are what they are.

 

If we push further 2/2/2 is not fair either but at least it will give options.

6 human companions. MAKER please no. No more human master race. please more alien companions and less human companions.

[daveliam]

I see that BSN is back to my favorite hypocritical argument:

 

"Bioware should pandering to fans and just create the content that they want to create.  Unless that content isn't what I want, in which case they should not create the content they want and should pander to me......"

 

The bottom line is this:  they will never make everyone happy with romance.  But who cares?  As Bioware fans, we should understand that, in some games, we'll be happy with our options and, in other games, we won't.  It's not an attack on a group if they have less options than another group. 

 

Bioware has stated that they want to give multiple options for the majority of players.  It's what they want to do.  If that isn't okay with people, then they should move on and play other games. 

 

And the whole, "See?  This is why they should cut out romances altogether..." argument is pretty weak.  That would just create a whole other set of arguments and would do nothing to reduce the amount of discussion/argument around romances. 

 

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it:  as long as I get two options for m/m romances, I'm happy.  Even if I don't like my options (looking at Anders and Ferris.....), I'm still happy because it gives me a choice.  I don't expect to always like my choices since that's subjective and there's no way (literally) for Bioware to meet every fans' subjective preferences.  If I don't like either choice, I'll either pick the one I dislike the least, pick the one that makes the most interesting story, or (shocker) not play a romance since it's optional content anyway.

 

Frankly, what I'd like to see in ME4 is a scaling back of romances, particularly if it's a new trilogy.  Let's just have 4 romances in this game:  2 bisexual humans (one man; one woman) and 2 bisexual aliens (one asari [I'm assuming] and one male alien).  Everyone gets two options.  If you like human only, you still have an option; If you like aliens, you still have an option.  Then, if they add in romances beyond this first game, they can start adding in other sexualities in small numbers.  That's what I'd like to see, frankly.

[Felya87]

Jack is not bi. She just had sex with female.

More precisely, she was in a threesome with an ethero couple. That doesn't make her BI.

I find curious how if a woman have a treesome with another woman and a man, she must be BI, but if are two man and a woman the man aren't considered BI...

 

By the way, I'd like to see the chance to different approaches to the same romance. Like, having the romance go "phisical" before becaming romantic, romantic and than ending in bed, or being only romantic without having sex. But this with the same character.

I still love the Alistair romance because you can basically have different approaches: my preferred one was having the friendship between my warden and him rise, and than a slightl flirt from my warden, and he would present himself to her later in camp. Or I could have my character make her advances obvious in a very direct way. It depended on the character I was playng, and I found that fun.

[daveliam]

@Felya  Because bisexual guys are viewed like myths from most people.  Especially if they don't immediately follow up any statements about attraction with ones that declare their attraction to the other gender as well.  Otherwise, they're either 'closeted gay guys' or (in Bioware games) 'pandering'.  Ammirite?

[Felya87]

@Felya  Because bisexual guys are viewed like myths from most people.  Especially if they don't immediately follow up any statements about attraction with ones that declare their attraction to the other gender as well.  Otherwise, they're either 'closeted gay guys' or (in Bioware games) 'pandering'.  Ammirite?

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot. 

Still, having fun in a threesome doesn't automatically make the partecipant of the same sex BI. And Jack's case was quite particular, so I have a hard time seeing her as a "bisexual LI that BioWare didn't let be with women". But it may be just me. Probably because I have friends that had been with people of the same sex, and than they decided it wasn't their thing, and a friend that instead find that he was only into man this way.

So I have this convinction that one time doesn't make the sexuality. Sometime people need to try different things to find their own sexual identity.

 

By the way, I know it can be strange, but I would like the BI characters to be the aliens this time, hoping the LI will be 2/2/2, approach that I prefer.

[Pasquale1234]

Frankly, what I'd like to see in ME4 is a scaling back of romances, particularly if it's a new trilogy.  Let's just have 4 romances in this game:  2 bisexual humans (one man; one woman) and 2 bisexual aliens (one asari [I'm assuming] and one male alien).  Everyone gets two options.  If you like human only, you still have an option; If you like aliens, you still have an option.  Then, if they add in romances beyond this first game, they can start adding in other sexualities in small numbers.  That's what I'd like to see, frankly.

Me, too. I really liked the 2/2, all-bi mix in DA2. It meant that nobody was excluded from romancing the LI they liked best (with the character / gender of their choice). If representation of different orientations is a goal, it can be achieved with other, non-LI NPCs (Wade/Herren, Branka/Hespith, plenty of o/s couples). Of course, I also know better than to make any assumptions about someone's orientation based on their current, public partner.

I also prefer smaller numbers because it can mean more content, and perhaps more plot relevance, for each one.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Frankly, what I'd like to see in ME4 is a scaling back of romances, particularly if it's a new trilogy.  Let's just have 4 romances in this game:  2 bisexual humans (one man; one woman) and 2 bisexual aliens (one asari [I'm assuming] and one male alien).  Everyone gets two options.  If you like human only, you still have an option; If you like aliens, you still have an option.  Then, if they add in romances beyond this first game, they can start adding in other sexualities in small numbers.  That's what I'd like to see, frankly.

I highly doubt they'll do the all bi thing again after what they said about it with DA2.

[Battlebloodmage]

For the first part, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The romances are with the party members and advisors, where the gender balance of those two skews towards men. As a consequence there are more options for straight women romance options. To ignore that is to ignore the context of the decision. I'm not defending it, I'm not justifying it, I am simply pointing out that there it is a logical result of a party gender distribution which was not necessarily complained by the same people when it first came out than when they found out about the romance distribution.

Your point regarding why they have more straight female romances are not very valid when there are several NPC that could be romanced as well just like with Cullen and Josephine. Someone like Harding would have been very good choice as well, even Vivienne would have been written as one. It's not like it's the first time they have LIs with dead spouse. Moreover, why couldn't they have been gay or bi as well? As you said, there's nothing to defend or justify because that's what they decide on just like with ME3. It is what it is. Both games have their target audience. I hope the next game would learn from it just give a far distribution. It would avoid any resentment that could arise from it. 2/2/2 seems like the best option. I hope the ME would be the first game to have an even distribution. 

[Para-Cord43]

You and me think alike friend.

[Hiemoth]

Your point regarding why they have more straight female romances are not very valid when there are several NPC that could be romanced as well just like with Cullen and Josephine. Someone like Harding would have been very good choice as well, even Vivienne would have been written as one. It's not like it's the first time they have LIs with dead spouse. Moreover, why couldn't they have been gay or bi as well? As you said, there's nothing to defend or justify because that's what they decide on just like with ME3. It is what it is. Both games have their target audience. I hope the next game would learn from it just give a far distribution. It would avoid any resentment that could arise from it. 2/2/2 seems like the best option. I hope the ME would be the first game to have an even distribution. 

 

Vivienne's spouse died during the story, which would have made one morbid romance. As for Harding, maybe?

 

Also, who are these mythical NPCs that could have been romanced by straight men? These prominant female NPCs include: Empress Celene, who is involved with another romantic subplot and doesn't actually hang around the fortress to be romanced. Fiona, who is literally the mother of a major character in the canon and actually only there if you choose the mages at the initial division point. The Chantry representative, who is an elderly woman who has also made vows of abstinence. Morrigan and Leliana, who were both romantic interests in a prior game and Bioware understandable didn't want to get that mess going by making them romantic interests here.

 

I also completely baffled what is it that you are arguing against me here? My point was that they made the party composition what it was, which lead to more possibilities for straight women as Bioware doesn't want to go the random stranger romances as pacing in those are difficult. Thus the argument shouldn't be about the unfairness of it all from the romantic perspective, but rather about the original party/advisor gender composition. Saying that having much more men there is great and up to the writers, but how dare they make more romantic options for straight women is just inexplicably contradictory as the second part is due to the first part. There is no buts here, that is how it is.

 

Besides, your argument is also ignoring something other quite fundamental about DAI in that it was originally this ideal you keep pushing with every gender/orientation having two choices. With the additional development time they decided to put resources in to adding two new romances, which came to be Cullen and Solas as there were basically only male options that could work as romantic options at that point. Why? Because of the party gender composition.

[Battlebloodmage]

Vivienne's spouse died during the story, which would have made one morbid romance. As for Harding, maybe?

 

Also, who are these mythical NPCs that could have been romanced by straight men? These prominant female NPCs include: Empress Celene, who is involved with another romantic subplot and doesn't actually hang around the fortress to be romanced. Fiona, who is literally the mother of a major character in the canon and actually only there if you choose the mages at the initial division point. The Chantry representative, who is an elderly woman who has also made vows of abstinence. Morrigan and Leliana, who were both romantic interests in a prior game and Bioware understandable didn't want to get that mess going by making them romantic interests here.

 

I also completely baffled what is it that you are arguing against me here? My point was that they made the party composition what it was, which lead to more possibilities for straight women as Bioware doesn't want to go the random stranger romances as pacing in those are difficult. Thus the argument shouldn't be about the unfairness of it all from the romantic perspective, but rather about the original party/advisor gender composition. Saying that having much more men there is great and up to the writers, but how dare they make more romantic options for straight women is just inexplicably contradictory as the second part is due to the first part. There is no buts here, that is how it is.

 

Besides, your argument is also ignoring something other quite fundamental about DAI in that it was originally this ideal you keep pushing with every gender/orientation having two choices. With the additional development time they decided to put resources in to adding two new romances, which came to be Cullen and Solas as there were basically only male options that could work as romantic options at that point. Why? Because of the party gender composition.

And those options can't be gay or bi because? As I said, Vivienne and Harding could have been options, but if they could add 2 more options. It doesn't have to be Cullen and Solas, but one from Cullen or Solas and one from either Vivienne or Harding. If they want to be adventurous, they could even adding Krem, which would have been even more diversity and representation for the trans community. It's not as if they're gonna add 2 for males and 2 for females. They choose to add 2 more options specifically for straight females only. The game is geared toward straight females while ME3 is leaning to straight males. Don't try to find an excuse for it, just call it what it is. 

[Panda]

All bisexual LI's are fine to me, but I'd rather have more than 4 romances. With 4 romances changes are larger that there isn't romance you'd like or less romances you'd like. Quite often my fav romances seem to be extra options and not "main romances" so I think those would be first one's missing if LI's were cut to 4.

[Panda]

And those options can't be gay or bi because? As I said, Vivienne and Harding could have been options, but if they could add 2 more options. It doesn't have to be Cullen and Solas, but one from Cullen or Solas and one from either Vivienne or Harding. If they want to be adventurous, they could even adding Krem, which would have been even more diversity for the trans community. It's not as if they're gonna add 2 for males and 2 for females They choose to add 2 more options specifically for straight females only. The game is geared toward straight females while ME3 is leaning to straight males. 

 

Actually this is not quite what happened. Devs were looking at extra romance options to do during extra year of development and looking at characters which would fit story-wise and those ended up being Solas and Cullen. Gaider also mentioned in forums (on thread that has been deleted so this is from my memory) that numbers aren't first concern to them: writing good stories are. Not sure about Solas, but Cullen wasn't first designed as female only romance, he has dialogue recorded for romance with male Inquisitor as well (Dorian has also dialogue recorded for male Inquisitor's romance with Cullen). That was cut later on either because there wasn't enough resources to animate romance scenes or because it didn't fit to the character, maybe bit of both.

 

It seems like equal numbers were what devs were going for from the start (though Iron Bull at that point was gated from some races), but after extra year Bioware decided that romance would fit to Cullen's and Solases story. I think Solas romance was also something that Weekes was very passionate to write (I think he did it over the weekend, but can't find now quote, maybe I have to keep looking) so there is also aspect of writers wanting to write something over importance of equal numbers- I'm not saying that one is more important than other here, but that was some reasons why numbers didn't end up being equal in the end.

[Battlebloodmage]

Actually this is not quite what happened. Devs were looking at extra romance options to do during extra year of development and looking at characters which would fit story-wise and those ended up being Solas and Cullen. Gaider also mentioned in forums (on thread that has been deleted so this is from my memory) that numbers aren't first concern to them: writing good stories are. Not sure about Solas, but Cullen wasn't first designed as female only romance, he has dialogue recorded for romance with male Inquisitor as well (Dorian has also dialogue recorded for male Inquisitor's romance with Cullen). That was cut later on either because there wasn't enough resources to animate romance scenes or because it didn't fit to the character, maybe bit of both.

 

It seems like equal numbers were what devs were going for from the start (though Iron Bull at that point was gated from some races), but after extra year Bioware decided that romance would fit to Cullen's and Solases story. I think Solas romance was also something that Weekes was very passionate to write (I think he did it over the weekend, but can't find now quote, maybe I have to keep looking) so there is also aspect of writers wanting to write something over importance of equal numbers- I'm not saying that one is more important than other here, but that was some reasons why numbers didn't end up being equal in the end.

Solas as a new character is someone who could have easier to write as gay or bi. The worst offense is how much information you can only get from Solas and a feature that's not available for male inquisitor like the history behind the slave brand or the ability to remove the tattoo. Cullen was shy around females, for a lot of bi people react to males and females very differently. Like with Anders, just because he doesn't mention it doesn't mean he's straight. These characters could have offered to more variety of orientations. These kinds of arguments that the writers want to write what they want could have very well justify the situation we have with ME3. I find both games to be flawed in how they handle things. 

[Jaquio]

I wish we worried less about the sexuality of potential romances and cared more about the actual emotional content of what romances are.

 

In pretty much every BW game, you can successfully romance someone if you choose the right path, regardless of what you have done in the course of your adventure.  That's a pretty messed up mindset, in my opinion.  Romancing Fenris as a practicing blood mage, for example, is ridiculous.  Successfully romancing Tali after siding with Legion in ME2 also strains credulity.

 

I'd rather focus less on what bits and bobs various characters want to canoodle, and instead focus on branching conversation paths that are affected by major choices, and the reflection of those choices on the possibility of intimacy.  First and foremost, that requires getting rid of "insert token for sex" heart icon dialogue choices.

[Panda]

Solas as a new character is someone who could have easier to write as gay or bi. The worst offense is how much information you can only get from Solas and a feature that's not available for male inquisitor like the history behind the slave brand or the ability to remove the tattoo. Cullen was shy around females, for a lot of bi people react to males and females very differently. Like with Anders, just because he doesn't mention it doesn't mean he's straight. These characters could have offered to more variety of orientations. These kinds of arguments that the writers want to write what they want could have very well justify the situation we have with ME3. I find both games to be flawed in how they handle things. 

 

They could have been both written as bisexual I agree on that. Though I don't think devs did this simply to cater female players, I think at least Cullen was clearly intended to be bisexual at some point. Like I said reasons why it was cut were likely lack of resources to animate his romance for both genders (almost twice the work) or it didn't fit to his character in devs point of view or both. There was lot of questioning why his m/m romance wasn't in the game when his dialogue romance files were found out by players (they still exist in the actual game files).

[Hiemoth]

Solas as a new character is someone who could have easier to write as gay or bi. The worst offense is how much information you can only get from Solas and a feature that's not available for male inquisitor like the history behind the slave brand or the ability to remove the tattoo. Cullen was shy around females, for a lot of bi people react to males and females very differently. Like with Anders, just because he doesn't mention it doesn't mean he's straight. These characters could have offered to more variety of orientations. These kinds of arguments that the writers want to write what they want could have very well justify the situation we have with ME3. I find both games to be flawed in how they handle things. 

 

But this argument ignores the fact that it isn't just writing, they also have to animate the scenes between the two, which is a lot of work. The only reason Iron Bull wasn't racegated was because one of the head of animation put in a lot personal time to make him available for everyone. Thus it is more efficient to them, especially when adding new options at the end of the production, to limit the amount of animation needed.

 

Also, on the Vivienne thing, again, the love of her life literally dies in the middle of the game. That is a crucial part of her story. Yet your argument, as much as I can get it concerning her, is that the story should have been "Viv, your love just died. Want to hook up?"

 

 

Actually this is not quite what happened. Devs were looking at extra romance options to do during extra year of development and looking at characters which would fit story-wise and those ended up being Solas and Cullen. Gaider also mentioned in forums (on thread that has been deleted so this is from my memory) that numbers aren't first concern to them: writing good stories are. Not sure about Solas, but Cullen wasn't first designed as female only romance, he has dialogue recorded for romance with male Inquisitor as well (Dorian has also dialogue recorded for male Inquisitor's romance with Cullen). That was cut later on either because there wasn't enough resources to animate romance scenes or because it didn't fit to the character, maybe bit of both.

 

It seems like equal numbers were what devs were going for from the start (though Iron Bull at that point was gated from some races), but after extra year Bioware decided that romance would fit to Cullen's and Solases story. I think Solas romance was also something that Weekes was very passionate to write (I think he did it over the weekend, but can't find now quote, maybe I have to keep looking) so there is also aspect of writers wanting to write something over importance of equal numbers- I'm not saying that one is more important than other here, but that was some reasons why numbers didn't end up being equal in the end.

 

But this still ties back in to the gender distribution of the party. They were looking at what options to do and all the available options were male because there were twice as many male characters than female characters and each of the remaining female character had story reasons why they weren't an option.

 

This is my main point here, in the case DAI and inbalance between romantic options, you can't examine independent of the party composition because when they wanted to expand the romantic possibilities, there were only possible male characters left.

[Battlebloodmage]

But this argument ignores the fact that it isn't just writing, they also have to animate the scenes between the two, which is a lot of work. The only reason Iron Bull wasn't racegated was because one of the head of animation put in a lot personal time to make him available for everyone. Thus it is more efficient to them, especially when adding new options at the end of the production, to limit the amount of animation needed.

 

Also, on the Vivienne thing, again, the love of her life literally dies in the middle of the game. That is a crucial part of her story. Yet your argument, as much as I can get it concerning her, is that the story should have been "Viv, your love just died. Want to hook up?"

 

 

 

But this still ties back in to the gender distribution of the party. They were looking at what options to do and all the available options were male because there were twice as many male characters than female characters and each of the remaining female character had story reasons why they weren't an option.

 

This is my main point here, in the case DAI and inbalance between romantic options, you can't examine independent of the party composition because when they wanted to expand the romantic possibilities, there were only possible male characters left.

It's no difference than Steve whose husband also just died recently. The romance doesn't always have to be the same, like a build up, slowly developing into a romance. It's not like these kinds of stories haven't been done before or never happened in real life. If they could only add one option, as I said, one could be Harding, or to a certain extend Vivienne and the other is a male. 

 

Your main point isn't valid when there are available romances like Harding or Vivienne. The same argument could be applied for males. The only available ones are Solas and Cullen. It's not like you could or should romance someone with a child mentality like Cole. Varric is still in love with Bianca, and she's still alive to boost. Meaning the number of available romance are almost equal. It would be valid if there are actually a large bachelor pools to select from, but the number is more or less equal, so 2-2 or 2-1, depending on whether you count Vivienne. They basically used all the possible males for the extra romance while none from the female.

[Battlebloodmage]

They could have been both written as bisexual I agree on that. Though I don't think devs did this simply to cater female players, I think at least Cullen was clearly intended to be bisexual at some point. Like I said reasons why it was cut were likely lack of resources to animate his romance for both genders (almost twice the work) or it didn't fit to his character in devs point of view or both. There was lot of questioning why his m/m romance wasn't in the game when his dialogue romance files were found out by players (they still exist in the actual game files).

Regardless of intention, it's still turned out that way. My point is that both games have, intentionally or not, shown a leaning in distribution. This is something they need to look into in the future to avoid resentment. The less controversy, the better, IMO.

[Felya87]

It's no difference than Steve whose husband also just died recently. The romance doesn't always have to be the same, like a build up, slowly developing into a romance. It's not like these kinds of stories haven't been done before or never happened in real life.

 

Your main point isn't valid when there are available romances like Harding or Vivienne. The same argument could be applied for males. The only available ones are Solas and Cullen. Varric is still in love with Bianca, and she's still alive to boost. Meaning the number of available romance are almost equal. 

 

Errr...Steve's husband had died something like six months prior ME3. Is quite different from "your lover's body is still warm after you tried to save him, let's bang". Still early, but with the world ending and people dieng like flies, well, I can stretch my imagination, and give Shep and Cortez the benefit of months of fighting together and falling in love in dire times. But frankly, I'd like BioWare take a pause from the "dead husband/wife" thrope for male LI.

 

Harding would have been cute, but she is a really marginal character. She have very little content, I'm sure her flirts are a way to see if a dwarf LI can be of interest, since BioWare seemed to really dislike the idea of a dwarf LI. (yep. still mourning a certain hairy chest romance for my dwarfettes)

[Battlebloodmage]

Errr...Steve's husband had died something like six months prior ME3. Is quite different from "your lover's body is still warm after you tried to save him, let's bang". Still early, but with the world ending and people dieng like flies, well, I can stretch my imagination, and give Shep and Cortez the benefit of moths of fighting together and falling in love in dire times. But frankly, I'd like BioWare take a pause from the "dead husband/wife" thrope for male LI.

 

Harding would have been cute, but she is a really marginal character. She have very little content, I'm sure her flirts are a way to see if a dwarf LI can be of interest, since BioWare seemed to really dislike the idea of a dwarf LI. (yep. still mourning a certain hairy chest romance for my dwarfettes)

Those without romances always seem to have less content. If she were a LI, she would have more scenes for herself. I would love to see a dwarf romance in the future. I think with popular characters like Varric and Harding, we could have a dwarf romance in the next game.

[Panda]

But this still ties back in to the gender distribution of the party. They were looking at what options to do and all the available options were male because there were twice as many male characters than female characters and each of the remaining female character had story reasons why they weren't an option.

 

This is my main point here, in the case DAI and inbalance between romantic options, you can't examine independent of the party composition because when they wanted to expand the romantic possibilities, there were only possible male characters left.

 

Well I agree. Vivienne was pretty much off-limits unless devs wanted to change her story. Leliana was pretty focused elsewhere and might have romance ongoing with Warden. Scout Harding would have been easiest option to expand as I romance I guess, but she wasn't really inner circle as much as advisors and companions so that's probably reason you can only flirt with her. Not sure though.

 

It simply was easier to expand stories of Solas and Cullen than do romance with female character. Though if Bioware really wanted they could have changed story of characters a bit to make one more female LI if they wanted.

[Felya87]

Those without romances always seem to have less content. If she were a LI, she would have more scenes for herself. I would love to see a dwarf romance in the future. I think with popular characters like Varric and Harding, we could have a dwarf romance in the next game.

 

I think Harding isn't a romance because she have few scenes. If she had more, and had a more prominent role story wise, probably she would have ended up as a LI. But implementing a romance with her character at the same point Solas and Cullen were, probably it would have meant creating more content non-romance related for her, to not make her only (apparent) role as a romance. Much work, for something that BioWare didn't felt the risks were woth it (at least, since she was a dwarf. Again, BioWare allergy at romancable dwarfs   even if they create such lovable dwarf characters)

I really hope for future dwarfes romances, expecially if they keep the race selection. Dwarf+Dwarf is the only romance pairing I miss in DA, and I'd really love to make it one day  expecially because I adore play as a dwarf (my first male Warden, and first male character created in a game with chances to play both sexes was a male dwarf who romanced Morrigan. And is my second canon world state for DA.)

 

I believe Harding will be a prominent character in future DA games.