782 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

I think they could go with more stable relationships, for example someone on the crew or in squad is in one. Also give it more time, I know why they do it but so far it seems its like talk to someone a couple of times, flirt a couple of times and they are jumping into bed with you. Why not add steps to the whole thing? 

[Panda]

The Bioware forums are hardly representative for the average Mass effect player, tens of thousands of people who played the games have never even visited these boards, I think it's safe to say the regular posters of the Bioware forums account for less than 10% of people who played the Mass Effect 3. A good portion of people who picked up Mass Effect have moved on allready. Mass Effect 3 was especially streamlined in order to attaract more mainstream gamers.

 

That said, Mass Effect was never marketed with romances as primary feature as demonstrated by the fact that romances have always been optional. Once again people here are being way too optimistic on this matter, but people should recgonize it for what it is. Romances are a fun little side thing but it is hardly worth sinking resources into especially when the Devs have to account very every minor demografic.

 

 

Once again, what you may find on the interwebs is not very representative of what the mainstream gamer wants, or even the people who are intrested in the narrative like myself. And with your statements on gay romances, do you also believe it is wrong that the overwhelming majority of advertisments are aimed at and feature straight relationships? Of course it's not. ME's goal was never to be all inclusive, when you have to prepare emergency meals for 999 atheists and 1 muslim, it would absurd to devout disproportionate additional effort in preparing a single halal meal.

 

ME forums and fandom from tumblr and devianart that contribute construct from loyal players and fans. Casual ME gamer (mainstream gamer, not fan of series), who picks up the game only seeing trailer of it and often won't even finish the game, might be quite different from those who are fan of the series and company behind it- but really unreliable players like that are risky to devote game on. They don't like it first place to devote their time to it so they might or might buy it again when fans of series will very likely buy the game. Casual ME gamers will buy BW's game if enough hype is build, if reviews are good and if game wins rewards and they like trailer. Bioware can do that by making good game, one that loyal fans and reviewers like. That's my take on it anyways.

 

And I guess if we are going what casual ME gamer likes statistically there is no need for female PC, other classes than Soldier, character customisation, renegade and so on. But then, would ME games be reviewed so high and would they have such fandom that contributes lot of fanart if Bioware simply went what average ME gamer wants and cut "minority" stuff out?

[daveliam]

Food analogies are always a little tricky, but it's curious that this one is framed around an emergency, which is a circumstance that basically makes it irrelevant. If this was just a restaurant, then it's simply a matter of whether or not the restaurant offers certain types of food for certain types of people. BioWare already serves this "halal", even if it's a shorter list at the end of the menu, and if people are still eating it, then, well, that's kind of the end of it.

 

Correct.  The food analogy fails on many levels.  Here's my attempt to make it try to make it relevant:

 

A restaurant offers many types of "specialized" meals (halal, kosher, vegetarian, vegan, etc.) in addition to offering a selection of other meals that are more "mainstream" and widely ordered.  The restaurant has stated many times in the press and advertising that they do so because they genuinely are interested in offering selections for as many people as possible.  In the comments section of the restaurant's website, someone asks how to improve the meal selection, to which some other people respond saying that they should stop serving the "specialized" meals or serve less of them in order to increase the "mainstream" meal selections because more people choose the latter over the former.

 

And that opinion is fine (although I fully disagree with it), but not really something that would be well-received overall (despite the fact that "most" players won't play those romances) and goes against Bioware's stance on it. 

[BabyPuncher]

The restaurant has stated many times in the press and advertising that they do so because they genuinely are interested in offering selections for as many people as possible.

 

BioWare isn't interested in that at all.

 

There are plenty of demographics they don't make any effort to include and aren't going to start making any effort.

 

The 'we make games for everyone' is just PR nonsense. The truth is far more along the lines of "We make games for groups which are convenient for the story we wish to tell and which make us look nice and progressive."

[Panda]

BioWare isn't interested in that at all.

 

There are plenty of demographics they don't make any effort to include and aren't going to start making any effort.

 

The 'we make games for everyone' is just PR nonsense. The truth is far more along the lines of "We make games for groups which are convenient for the story we wish to tell and which make us look nice and progressive."

 

What are these demographics?

[daveliam]

BioWare isn't interested in that at all.

 

There are plenty of demographics they don't make any effort to include and aren't going to start making any effort.

 

The 'we make games for everyone' is just PR nonsense. The truth is far more along the lines of "We make games for groups which are convenient for the story we wish to tell and which make us look nice and progressive."

 

Spin it however you want.  I'm not interested in debating semantics. Especially since I didn't say that their stance is to make games for "everyone", which would be literally impossible to do.

[BabyPuncher]

Overweight and obese people for one. That's certainly an immensely larger (ha ha) demographic than, say, transgender people. Yet they aren't represented at all.

 

Ugly people. And don't say you can make your character ugly with the CC. BioWare protagonists are assumed to be attractive by the characters in the story.

 

Stupid people, to put it bluntly. People who can't preform serious physical tasks for one reason or another. People who have difficulties speaking to strangers or making speeches or whatever.

 

On a fundamental level, the entire concept of the 'hero' is built upon exclusion. Not inclusion. The one in a million. Not the 999,999. They're excluded. The story is never about them. It's always about the one. The 'hero' is as exclusive as it's possible to be.

[BabyPuncher]

Spin it however you want.  I'm not interested in debating semantics. Especially since I didn't say that their stance is to make games for "everyone", which would be literally impossible to do.

 

This isn't some minor technicality. These are massive, massive chunks of the population being excluded. Well over the majority of the population. That's not a concern to you?

[daveliam]

This isn't some minor technicality. These are massive, massive chunks of the population being excluded. Well over the majority of the population. That's not a concern to you?

 

I'm not engaging in this argument with you.  If you genuinely think that "obese" is comparable to "lesbian" in terms of representation in romance options, that's on you, bud.  But I'm not engaging.  Sorry.

[FKA_Servo]

Overweight and obese people for one. That's certainly an immensely larger (ha ha) demographic than, say, transgender people. Yet they aren't represented at all.

 

Ugly people. And don't say you can make your character ugly with the CC. BioWare protagonists are assumed to be attractive by the characters in the story.

 

Stupid people, to put it bluntly. People who can't preform serious physical tasks for one reason or another. People who have difficulties speaking to strangers or making speeches or whatever.

 

On a fundamental level, the entire concept of the 'hero' is built upon exclusion. Not inclusion. The one in a million. Not the 999,999. They're excluded. The story is never about them. It's always about the one. The 'hero' is as exclusive as it's possible to be.

 

This is one of the most inane comments I've ever seen on this topic.

[ZombiePopper]

Please please please (did I say please?)
Ditch the damn DAI romance layout and go back to ME3's,
Please.
My straight male Quizzy has 2 options?!
Of which,
I dislike both equally, to a point that I literally romance no one.
In ME3 one of my hardest decisions was who to romance in a PT.
(Though Tali is my fav) they were all interesting and moving.

[rapscallioness]

*snip*

 

Frankly, what I'd like to see in ME4 is a scaling back of romances, particularly if it's a new trilogy.  Let's just have 4 romances in this game:  2 bisexual humans (one man; one woman) and 2 bisexual aliens (one asari [I'm assuming] and one male alien).  Everyone gets two options.  If you like human only, you still have an option; If you like aliens, you still have an option.  Then, if they add in romances beyond this first game, they can start adding in other sexualities in small numbers.  That's what I'd like to see, frankly.

 

Yes. I'd prefer this as well. And maybe of there are only 4, their romance story arcs could tie in to the main narrative more.

[BabyPuncher]

I'm not engaging in this argument with you.  If you genuinely think that "obese" is comparable to "lesbian" in terms of representation in romance options, that's on you, bud.  But I'm not engaging.  Sorry.

 

I don't think it's comparative to lesbian content. I do think it's more or less comparative to transgender content. In that I don't want to see it in fiction. Not in central roles by good characters in heroic fiction, anyway. And not because I take sadistic glee in being a big meany to obese or transgender people, but because I don't wish to spend my limited time and money with content I find...unappealing, to say the least. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Please please please (did I say please?)
Ditch the damn DAI romance layout and go back to ME3's,
Please.
My straight male Quizzy has 2 options?!
Of which,
I dislike both equally, to a point that I literally romance no one.
In ME3 one of my hardest decisions was who to romance in a PT.
(Though Tali is my fav) they were all interesting and moving.

[ZombiePopper]

Please please please (did I say please?)
Ditch the damn DAI romance layout and go back to ME3's,
Please.
My straight male Quizzy has 2 options?!
Of which,
I dislike both equally, to a point that I literally romance no one.
In ME3 one of my hardest decisions was who to romance in a PT.
(Though Tali is my fav) they were all interesting and moving.

I'll clarify,
More options and more importantly interesting options.
To me,
The DAI cast is the most boring and hollow cast to date.

[Fixers0]

Correct.  The food analogy fails on many levels.  Here's my attempt to make it try to make it relevant:

 

A restaurant offers many types of "specialized" meals (halal, kosher, vegetarian, vegan, etc.) in addition to offering a selection of other meals that are more "mainstream" and widely ordered.  The restaurant has stated many times in the press and advertising that they do so because they genuinely are interested in offering selections for as many people as possible.  In the comments section of the restaurant's website, someone asks how to improve the meal selection, to which some other people respond saying that they should stop serving the "specialized" meals or serve less of them in order to increase the "mainstream" meal selections because more people choose the latter over the former.

 

And that opinion is fine (although I fully disagree with it), but not really something that would be well-received overall (despite the fact that "most" players won't play those romances) and goes against Bioware's stance on it. 

 

 

Hardly, ME1 and ME2 had no designated gay romances and both games performed extremly well, I'm not fundamentally arguing against such content though. Rather I'd want Bioware to proportionally allocate it's resources and priortize content. If that means sacrifcing some the less popular sidedishes (certain romances) in order to provide a better main course (plot) then I do not believe many people are going to have an issue with that, in fact they'd most likely welcome it.

[KaiserShep]

Overweight and obese people for one. That's certainly an immensely larger (ha ha) demographic than, say, transgender people. Yet they aren't represented at all.
 
Ugly people. And don't say you can make your character ugly with the CC. BioWare protagonists are assumed to be attractive by the characters in the story.
 
Stupid people, to put it bluntly. People who can't preform serious physical tasks for one reason or another. People who have difficulties speaking to strangers or making speeches or whatever.
 
On a fundamental level, the entire concept of the 'hero' is built upon exclusion. Not inclusion. The one in a million. Not the 999,999. They're excluded. The story is never about them. It's always about the one. The 'hero' is as exclusive as it's possible to be.

This is just like the time Biff drove his convertible into the rear end of the manure truck.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes. I'd prefer this as well. And maybe of there are only 4, their romance story arcs could tie in to the main narrative more.

After how vehemently they were against the DA2 system, I doubt they'll do all bisexual romances again.

Unless they decide to make each one a separate orientation that just happens to involve both genders. Like have one be bi, one be pan, one be demi, and an Asari one since gender has no meaning to them.

 

How would the romance arcs tie more into the main plot? 

[themikefest]

This is just like the time Biff drove his convertible into the rear end of the manure truck.

I like that movie, Back to the Future

[KaiserShep]

Hardly, ME1 and ME2 had no designated gay romances and both games performed extremly well, I'm not fundamentally arguing against such content though. Rather I'd want Bioware to proportionally allocate it's resources and priortize content. If that means sacrifcing some the less popular sidedishes (certain romances) in order to provide a better main course (plot) then I do not believe many people are going to have an issue with that, in fact they'd most likely welcome it.

The last point is really what the argument comes down to. We just don't know if BioWare sacrificed anything for this side content, or if the main objective of the game would remain the same if it was shaved off.

[KaiserShep]

I like that movie, Back to the Future

Why don't you make like a tree, and get outta here.

[daveliam]

Hardly, ME1 and ME2 had no designated gay romances and both games performed extremly well, I'm not fundamentally arguing against such content though. Rather I'd want Bioware to proportionally allocate it's resources and priortize content. If that means sacrifcing some the less popular sidedishes (certain romances) in order to provide a better main course (plot) then I do not believe many people are going to have an issue with that, in fact they'd most likely welcome it.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that a game can't be successful without gay romances.  But if they already have implemented them in the series, it would be a gut punch to those fans if they removed them going forward.  Again, all I want to see is choice in LI.  ME1 and ME2 offered 1 option each for lesbians (with Kelly really barely counting in ME2 anyway) and zero for gay guys.  That's just not cool coming from Bioware.  I don't care if straight guys have a billion options as long as I get two so that I can have a choice.  Just know that the more and more options for one demographic, the less quality options for everyone will likely be. 

 

Again, after how vehemently they were against the DA2 system, I doubt they'll do all bisexual romances again.

Unless they decide to make each one a separate orientation that just happens to involve both genders. Like have one be bi, one be pan, one be demi, and an Asari one since gender has no meaning to them.

 

How would the romance arcs tie more into the main plot? 

 

But Dragon Age is a totally separate beast than ME.  In DA, each game is a stand-alone.  In ME, each game is part of a larger trilogy.  People were overwhelmingly unhappy with the ME romances in ME3.  And a large part of that was because they kept adding in so many options each game that they needed to short-change some of them by the end (pretty much all of the ME2 romances minus Garrus and Tali plus Steve and Samantha). 

 

If ME: A is the beginning of a new trilogy, I think it's better for them to start small and add in a few (1-2 max) per game, otherwise they'll end up with the same mess as before.  It seems to me that the best way to do that is to start with 4 bisexual options in ME: A so that everyone gets two options.  Then add in 1-2 more each of the rest of the games.  This way, it won't be such an overinflated cast by the third game.  And you can have a variety of sexualities by the end.  Add a straight guy and a lesbian in ME:A2.  Add a straight lady and a gay guy in ME:A3.  For example.

 

Another option could be to have 4 LIs in ME: A (one straight guy, one straight gal, one gay guy, one lesbian) and then add in a few going forward.  This way no one has multiple options to start, but everyone has at least one.  Or, they could add in a cast of 6 LI's now and then just keep those ones without adding any/many going forward (maybe 1 or 2 total).  That's another approach they could take.  I just don't want to see a cast of 12 full romances (plus 2-3 'quasi-romances') with very few of them getting appropriate attention.

[ZombiePopper]

Why don't you make like a tree, and get outta here.

That's as funny as a screen door on a submarine.

[Fixers0]

The last point is really what the argument comes down to. We just don't know if BioWare sacrificed anything for this side content, or if the main objective of the game would remain the same if it was shaved off.

 

Romances were hardly integral to the story of Mass Effect considering they were all optional. And personally Mass Effect 3 could have gone perfectly well without Traynor, Cortez and Allers, three less voice actors, and a lot less animating to do. EDI could fill most of Traynor's role and Cortez can simple be replaced by  squadmate or generic pilot voiced by a stock actor. with these three characters gone the writing and development team could have devoted their time and effort into other matters.

[katamuro]

After how vehemently they were against the DA2 system, I doubt they'll do all bisexual romances again.

Unless they decide to make each one a separate orientation that just happens to involve both genders. Like have one be bi, one be pan, one be demi, and an Asari one since gender has no meaning to them.

 

How would the romance arcs tie more into the main plot? 

 

Yeah making everyone swing both ways was weird. They could expand the field of possible romancable characters by involving characters who are not your squaddies. Kinda like what they did in ME3 but not as awkwardly.