782 réponses à ce sujet

[Brass_Buckles]

I'll add some more thoughts later.  I'm going to dig up my responses from your romance thread from last year, Brass.

 

Something that bothered me more than possibly zero romances in ME3 for the ladies.  More than Steve dying, which only happens if you don't get him to the Citadel and to the point where he's at the Memorial.  Do that, regardless of whether or not you romance him and he'll survive London.  

 

That's all one thing. How about the fact that if you're a single FemShep, and if you choose the wild party option, the game has you wake up next to Javik.  No other player agency allowed.  It's strongly implied that they slept together, judging from the dialogue.

 

"There is one things primitives are good at."
"Not another word."

 

Ha Ha.  Not funny developers.   Cute "joke," but I'm betting money that they would not have done that with a Sheploo and a female version of Javik.  That wasn't cool.  Oh and I wouldn't want them to ever do that to the male PC, for that matter.  Don't mistake me there.  It's something I never want to see any PC have happen without their input ever again.  Regardless of gender, the player should have a choice in such things.

 

I don't mean any disrespect towards the ME team.  If I didn't respect them and the game experiences they gave me, I wouldn't be here.  So I ask them, please, please, don't do that again.  That was pretty insulting to any FemShep that wanted to have no romance, or otherwise unknowingly blew their chances with any romance because they didn't have a guide.

 

Equally bad as Javik was how Femshep could deal with Vega, at the same party, also if single.  Because it's perfectly okay to ply someone with alcohol until their "no" becomes a "yes."  ... Except it isn't.  Even though he is a guy.  I know what they were trying to do--that they were trying to say he HAD agreed to it/wanted to do it, he just wanted to be drunk enough to claim otherwise.  But, I'm sorry, that's not how it works in real life and it was seriously skeevy in the game.  So let's not do that again, either, shall we?  Because getting people drunk so they'll have sex with you that they would not ordinarily agree to is all kinds of bad (and generally also illegal).

[Feybrad]

Which is as obvious as it could ever be. i state it again - equality doesn't mean your particular group should have benefits. And I don't mean neither 'female' or 'feminist' an insult, it's just a reality statement.

 

She's still not arguing for anyone to have benefits over others. It's still the first Thing she says in her Post. I will gladly continue to hammer that over your Head until you get it.

[Brass_Buckles]

I'm a woman and yes I'm a feminist

 

Which is as obvious as it could ever be. i state it again - equality doesn't mean your particular group should have benefits. And I don't mean neither 'female' or 'feminist' an insult, it's just a reality statement.

 

As for the rest - I'm fine with a fact that you have an opinion on complicated matters. I just don't like the very opinion.

 

And I never stated that I should get more benefits than men, or more romances, or more anything.  Where you're magically pulling these non-facts from, I don't know.  Perhaps before assuming someone has X opinion about Y, you should actually ask them.

 

As for whether or not you like my opinions, I frankly don't care.  It's not a reason to be rude, or to assume you know anything about me when you clearly don't.

 

Also you should know that on my screen your text is showing up as highlighted and is very difficult to read as a result.  I doubt I'm the only one.

[daveliam]

I am 99% sure that the game doesn't force a single male Shep into a sexual encounter with Javik or Vega.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have never seen nor heard of that happening.  I can't imagine that if the game forced single male Sheps into gay sexual encounters there wouldn't have been a massive backlash.  Remember the backlash against Kaidan simply flirting with male Shep?

[Linkenski]

Bioware games since ME2 always, and I mean ALWAYS, disappoint me with their culmination, whereas plenty of other games of implied romance, flirting or simple development and bonding between the player character and another main lead was always that much stronger to me, than pandering romance scenes and forced "I love you"s.

Half Life 2 has a little fun with Implying Alyx Vance and your silent protagonist Gordon, like each other a lot, Link and Midna in Twilight Princess develop a bond that made me feel pretty emotional towards the end.

In DAI I really liked early scenes where you're all just building the foundation for the Inquisition, and you have a lot of scenes where you just casually visit Cassandra, and some scenes where she stands by your side during main campaign moments. That raises the issue of having a seemingly first-place romance choice, but I felt the growing relationship early on, only to later find I'm the Skyhold section that Cassandra's development lost steam and felt less like part of the story and more like... Well, a player pandering romance choice.

I think there is a problem with Bioware's formula for creating romances that they need to break more, decrease the total number of romances and make each one feel more meaningful and tie in better to the plot. In KOTOR, Bastilla is used in a great way as a romance and within the main plot. More of that please.

[Grieving Natashina]

Equally bad as Javik was how Femshep could deal with Vega, at the same party, also if single.  Because it's perfectly okay to ply someone with alcohol until their "no" becomes a "yes."  ... Except it isn't.  Even though he is a guy.  I know what they were trying to do--that they were trying to say he HAD agreed to it/wanted to do it, he just wanted to be drunk enough to claim otherwise.  But, I'm sorry, that's not how it works in real life and it was seriously skeevy in the game.  So let's not do that again, either, shall we?  Because getting people drunk so they'll have sex with you that they would not ordinarily agree to is all kinds of bad (and generally also illegal).

I'm not defending that skeezy move, nor am I saying that was the right thing to do. I don't think that's as bad, for one reason: The player has a choice.  

 

It wasn't right to shoehorn a one-night-stand complete with alcohol and a difference in rank.  They shouldn't have scrapped Vega's romance if they wanted FemSheps to have some sort of other option.  As someone that has been on the other side of that (drunk and with a guy friend trying to get down my pants,) that's another crap move that I don't want see again.  Please don't get me wrong here.

 

What I am saying that at least the player can choose whether or not their FemShep sleeps with Vega.  For Javik, the player has zero say in it.

[HuldraDancer]

Sorry for the off topic post but I'm curious about something with the Javik thing, does it only happen to female Shepards who have not romanced anyone in all of the games or just in the third one? I ask because I had a Thane run Shepard and was quite worried about the game forcing her with Javik in the Citdel DLC but despite having a wild party she woke up by herself.  I don't recall ever being able to 'lock in' a romance with Thane since he does get killed off which is why I'm curious on the matter. 

 

Sorry again for the off topic post.

[Brass_Buckles]

I'm not defending that skeezy move, nor am I saying that was the right thing to do. I don't think that's as bad, for one reason: The player has a choice.  

 

It wasn't right to shoehorn a one-night-stand complete with alcohol and a different in rank.  They shouldn't have scrapped Vega's romance if they wanted FemShep's to have some sort of other option.  As someone that has been on the other side of that (drunk and with a guy friend trying to get down my pants,) that's another crap move that I don't want see again.  Please don't get me wrong.

 

What I am saying that at least the player can choose whether or not their FemShep sleeps with Vega.  For Javik, the player has zero say in it.  

 

I see what you're saying, and in fact I made a post about it long ago how it could actually be seen as (and I know people are going to get jumpy about this when I say it) rape.  Because there's absolutely no lead-up scene to Javik being in bed with you, and basically Shepard doesn't seem to remember it either.  People laughed it off and claimed that "Oh well he probably just climbed in bed to troll her," but the fact that it can even be remotely interpreted as "Shepard was passing-out drunk enough not to remember what happened and Javik decided to have his way with her anyway and was conscious enough to remember what happened" is... problematic, and yes, having your way with (it's not sex if the other person can't or doesn't consent) someone who is passed out IS rape.  Even though we're probably meant to interpret it as the two of them just having a hot drunken hook-up that Javik particularly enjoyed.  And I think it was meant to be a bonus for the group of people who actually did want to romance Javik but couldn't.  There were such people around; I remember them.

 

And you're right of course.  I don't want another Javik or Vega situation, either.

[Brass_Buckles]

Sorry for the off topic post but I'm curious about something with the Javik thing, does it only happen to female Shepards who have not romanced anyone in all of the games or just in the third one? I ask because I had a Thane run Shepard and was quite worried about the game forcing her with Javik in the Citdel DLC but despite having a wild party she woke up by herself.  I don't recall ever being able to 'lock in' a romance with Thane since he does get killed off which is why I'm curious on the matter. 

 

Sorry again for the off topic post.

 

I'm not sure about that.  I did too much Garrusmancing to ever have it happen to me, but seeing videos/hearing about it was... well.  It was different.

[Grieving Natashina]

Sorry for the off topic post but I'm curious about something with the Javik thing, does it only happen to female Shepards who have not romanced anyone in all of the games or just in the third one? I ask because I had a Thane run Shepard and was quite worried about the game forcing her with Javik in the Citdel DLC but despite having a wild party she woke up by herself.  I don't recall ever being able to 'lock in' a romance with Thane since he does get killed off which is why I'm curious on the matter. 

 

Sorry again for the off topic post.

If you stay loyal to Thane in ME3 and get to the funeral scene (and don't hook up with Vega at the party,) the romanced is considered locked in.  So that's why you didn't see a Javik hookup. 

[Mystlock]

Your list looks good. And is so long, you put a lot of thought and passion. Anything that makes romances committed and close, makes you smile or laugh or FEEL ALIVE - BEAUTIFUL. All the romances in mass effect I did, they were fun and exciting, made you want to visit your love even though she/he kept telling you to go away until later, right? Loved it. I guess what could make romances better for me is when you and your love get up to some trouble, something meaningful and something to tease about, that just shows how much you and her/him are willing to give up to be committed, expressing how important it is to keep the other close to you

[Grieving Natashina]

Your list looks good. And is so long, you put a lot of thought and passion. Anything that makes romances committed and close, makes you smile or laugh or FEEL ALIVE - BEAUTIFUL. All the romances in mass effect I did, they were fun and exciting, made you want to visit your love even though she/he kept telling you to go away until later, right? Loved it. I guess what could make romances better for me is when you and your love get up to some trouble, something meaningful and something to tease about, that just shows how much you and her/him are willing to give up to be committed, expressing how important it is to keep the other close to you

Wow, what a first post!  May I sincerely say welcome to the forums.  

 

[Han Shot First]

I'm not saying the game is raping my character, but I am saying it puts you into a really uncomfortable position if you want the relationship in the game but not the sex.  You should be able to say "No, I don't want sex," and then there's no sex.  If there is some other word for that other than granting or denying consent, then feel free to provide that proper language.  If you weren't too busy calling me stupid to pay attention to what I am actually writing, perhaps you would understand that.

 

The only issue with that however is that it may not be in character for that character to still be interested in a relationship, if the main character rejects an advance. 

 

Take Isabela from Dragon Age as an example. I don't think it would be in character for her to stick around if Hawke was the, "I prefer to wait until marriage" type. 

 

Sex is a big deal for some people involved in relationships in the real world, and so should it be with some of the fictional ones in Bioware's games.

[Brass_Buckles]

The only issue with that however is that it may not be in character for that character to still be interested in a relationship, if the main character rejects an advance. 

 

Take Isabela from Dragon Age as an example. I don't think it would be in character for her to stick around if Hawke was the, "I prefer to wait until marriage" type. 

 

Sex is a big deal for some people involved in relationships in the real world, and so should it be with some of the fictional ones in Bioware's games.

 

That's true and fair, and I think I mentioned that in another post that, in the real world, it often is important.  In games, it doesn't have to be, though--at least not for everyone.

But it's not about waiting until marriage (sure I might play a character who does that on a rare occasion), sometimes it's just the wrong time.  "My mother just died."  "Have sex with me. Now."  Yeah... not the best time for Hawke...  Or, with this being Mass Effect, you might be romancing an alien.  You might need a little more time to get comfortable with the idea of dealing with unfamiliar anatomy.  Though saying you needed more time to Garrus?  In all fairness, as nervous as he was, he probably would have bailed if you asked him to wait.  And it was kind of your last chance, too.

 

For someone who actually cares about you, waiting a while for sex shouldn't be a dealbreaker.  Never having sex might be, for some, but if they don't care enough about you to take any concerns you personally have into account, then the relationship probably isn't going to work out anyway.  Or it's going to be an unhealthy relationship--which can be interesting in a game for the sake of story as long as you do understand it is unhealthy, but is best avoided in real life.

[Akrabra]

Either tie the romance to the mainplot or to the protagonists character arc, seeing how they will change because of a romance. When writing the romance they should know how many games they are gonna do with this protagonist and the crew, build for future games. Make your LI question your actions, and consequenses.

 

Also a companion should never be written with romance in mind, if it comes to the writer then they add it. So don't make it even or fair, the 2/2/2 system in great on paper, but you can't cater to everyone all the time. DA:I had some problems because of this. I rather they make the product they want to and include romances they believe actually works and will give the us the players something satisfying. 

[Linkenski]

Part of what annoys me is, that if there's a gay character in the game, he's part of the romance buffet, and even vice versa. Why can't there be characters that say no to you, like Samara, more? I just wish there was more purpose to the characters than "pick between gay, lesbian, bisexual or straight between these 5 companions".

It's sort of weird to pick about when there's player choice and agency, but I just feel there's a silliness to the whole "buffet" aspect of Bioware games.

I liked in Witcher 3 half the romance scenes outside of Triss and Yennefer are actually just about sex and player want, no bullshit in between, and not 8 characters unrelated to Geralt that he becomes near and dear with in the blink of an eye.

If we have 8 romance options, they still need to be developed properly, and that won't feel right after 4 simple conversations and a forced sex scene.

[Il Divo]

She's still not arguing for anyone to have benefits over others. It's still the first Thing she says in her Post. I will gladly continue to hammer that over your Head until you get it.

 

The only explanation is she must be on Bioware's payroll. 

[Feybrad]

The only explanation is she must be on Bioware's payroll. 

 

... I don't get it.

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't want half of the romance scenes to be about sex, even if the relationship has been stated as sexually active.  It isn't crap to want more dialogue and less sex scenes.  Good for those that enjoy it, but BioWare shouldn't go that route.  It would feel silly and forced, since BioWare hasn't really built the romance scenes with that intention thus far.  I prefer fade-to-black myself, although I don't mind some mild nudity (Liara, Cassandra, the female Inquisitor, Dorian and Kaidan all come to mind.)  There is also other reasons why I would never want BioWare to be like TW's romance structure, and some of it goes directly into the TW lore.  So no to that at all.

 

Four conversations and a forced sex scene?  Don't you mean 4 flirts and then a sex scene with some characters (note that Josie and Solas in DA:I do not have a sex scene, and that's intentional. I can see ME:A having the same options)  after they make it clear they are interested in sex.  The friendship conversations count just as much for building trust and a relationship than the flirt options.  I'd dare say that's far more important.

 

Part of the reason why this thread exists to address the sad fact that too many BioWare romances has ended with, "And your reward is sex!"  That's something I've seen several posters say that they think is dumb and should go away.  I'm a much bigger fan of all romances having the options to just cuddle or talk or have sex versus having sex mandatory as some sort of player "reward." 

 

Having more than two options isn't a "buffet."  It's called options for everyone.  BioWare has stated that this is matters to them.  That the choice of sexuality for the players matters to them and they are glad they include it.  It's a bad idea for a company that, time and time and time again, has stated that they want to give at least two straight, gay and bisexual options for their players.  Having only two options regardless of gender or sexuality would be an excellent way to alienate the LGB+ playerbase that has seen BioWare make these statements since 2011.  

 

You're suggesting that they be like the Witcher 3 and give two options.  Two choices in a series with a set protagonist (based upon a graphic novel) works for CDPR.   This isn't CDPR, this is BioWare and if there is anything that BioWare should never ever copy, it's the romance style. 

 

 I'd rather focus on what BioWare can improve on for themselves based upon their established style, not based upon another company did instead.  That's all I have to say about TW in this thread. 

 

Edit: I did want to mention that I agreed with one part of your post.  It would be nice to see a LGB+ squad mate and/or major NPC (someone like Samantha, Cullen, ect) that wasn't a romance option.  It is a little tiresome that any LGB+ party members are available.  Since there is always a couple of squad mates that aren't available in BW games, why not make one of them gay?  Keep at least two options for everyone, but as far as the "unavailable" squad mates, I think it's a great idea to make one of them non-hetero.  So thanks for suggesting that.  

[Il Divo]

... I don't get it.

 

Sorry, I should probably put that in context. I've spent a bit of time on the DA:I forums so I've seen a few of Tevos' posts. She has a habit of accusing people who defend Bioware games that they enjoy as "being on their payroll" so I thought it was interesting to see a bit of a reversal here. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Sorry, I should probably put that in context. I've spent a bit of time on the DA:I forums so I've seen a few of Tevos' posts. She has a habit of accusing people who defend Bioware games that they enjoy as "being on their payroll" so I thought it was interesting to see a bit of a reversal here. 

If that's the case, then they owe me a big check.

[Il Divo]

If that's the case, then they owe me a big check.

 

Likewise. I would do it in a heartbeat if offered, but my blunt hatred of ME3's endings might have booted me as a candidate. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Likewise. I would do it in a heartbeat if offered, but my blunt hatred of ME3's endings might have booted me as a candidate. 

Words cannot express how thankful I am that I didn't get into the series until last year. <hug>

[Panda]

I actually don't have problem with LI unavoidable dying or leaving you. It can make great story and great tragedy and I liked Thane's romance a lot and was okay the way it ended (though I'd like to have game recognize more that your character is heartbroken after it). However LI dying or leaving you is something that needs to be written with lot of care in my opinion, more so than romance continuing, since it's easy to fail and make player feel horrible and like they chose wrong romance, because of it. Like Jacob's case who left your for anyone woman.. I don't think that made good story and most likely made you recret romancing him in the first place.

[Panda]

Likewise. I would do it in a heartbeat if offered, but my blunt hatred of ME3's endings might have booted me as a candidate. 

 

I'm quite sure I'm booted after DAI's release ^^;