Questa discussione ha avuto 17 risposte

[Sinophile]

1.) Shepherd, Ashley, and Kaidan are not Soldiers- If They are in the alliance Navy, They are either called Marines or Sailors. If you call a real life Marine a "soldier", you are going to have a bad day. There have been several times during the course of the series that soldier has been grossly misused.

 

2.) Officers don't do 90% of the fighting- A Commander in the Navy would most likely hang around in the boat all day, and never wield anything more than a pistol. Granted, the Normandy is like some super-secret Special Ops ship. The only enlisted member to set foot on the ground was Jenkins, who promptly died within the first ten minutes of the first game.

 

There are more, but these are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

[X Equestris]

Bioware's grasp of military matters has never been perfect, either in Mass Effect or in Dragon Age.

Minor correction on point 2: Ashley was enlisted in the first game.

[Arisugawa]

To be fair, this isn't restricted to Mass Effect.

 

You're not going to include the Captain (Kirk) or the Executive Officer (Riker) in most away teams: Star Trek.

 

You're not going to have your pilots (Kara) and your CAG (Lee) serving as security when you have marines: Battlestar Galatica.

 

You're not going to have your Generals as part of an infiltration team (Solo) or flying frontline (Calrissian) in the attack: Star Wars.

 

For that matter, almost all science fiction gets the role of the Executive Officer wrong and the definition of the ship class Dreadnought wrong.

 

Specifically to Mass Effect, however, it doesn't appear as though the Alliance actually has anything similar to a standing army in today's world. It's very possible that the word "soldier" has been co-opted to mean non-flight crew in a military where almost everything is based partially or fully on spacecraft. Especially in a military that clearly defines their roles in six neat categories (Soldier, Infiltrator, Engineer, Sentinel, Adept, Vanguard) based on their tech and biotic prowess. Which doesn't explain why an Engineer Shepard would refer to herself as a Soldier, but the true definitions of words rarely retain strict adherence.

 

This isn't the first time this kind of thing happened.

 

For example, ultimate does not mean "the best," or "non above," or "will never be topped," or any of the other colorful misuses that have been commonplace. It means "final" or "the last." The ultimate match of a tournament is the final match, the penultimate match of a tournament is the one prior to the final, etc.

 

Or, more recently, impact. Impact is a noun. It described the event of things colliding into each other. It is not a verb. An event can have great impact, but an event doesn't impact the status quo. We never have things that are impacting.

 

But through common misuse and adoption, these words have taken on alternate meanings beyond the scope of their original usage.

[Sinophile]

You're not going to include the Captain (Kirk) or the Executive Officer (Riker) in most away teams: Star Trek.

In The original series, there were the redshirts. In Later series, there were anonymous crewmembers that you knew would end up dead by the end of the episode because they hadn't been introduced earlier in the series.

 

 

You're not going to have your Generals as part of an infiltration team (Solo) or flying frontline (Calrissian) in the attack: Star Wars.

 

Han Solo and Lando Calirissian were leaders of an insurgency, as opposed to a formal fighting force. Notice how Vader decided to fight ship to ship just when the Death Star was about to blow. You don't even see Palpatine in Episode IV, A glimspe of him in Episode V, and in VI he hides in his death star.

 

 

Which doesn't explain why an Engineer Shepard would refer to herself as a Soldier, but the true definitions of words rarely retain strict adherence.

http://www.usace.army.mil/

 

There are mechanics, fuelers,plumbers, supply clerks, computer programmers, Chaplains, doctors, and many other non-combat professions in the Army who refer to themselves as "soldiers". Then again I am speaking of the American Army (not familiar with other armies), the definition isn't limited to the specialties more likely to see combat(E.G. Cav scouts, tankers, artillery, infantry). In the context of shepherd, her being a soldier should have more to do with what branch she is serving under than what her actual role is. 

http://www.goarmy.co...t-engineer.html

 

Specifically to Mass Effect, however, it doesn't appear as though the Alliance actually has anything similar to a standing army in today's world.

Except there is lots of ground combat, they even use projectile weapons. The only difference is they get to the front in Spaceships instead of Airplanes or boats.

[Arisugawa]

In The original series, there were the redshirts. In Later series, there were anonymous crewmembers that you knew would end up dead by the end of the episode because they hadn't been introduced earlier in the series.

 

Which doesn't explain the presence of the Commanding Officer or the Executive Officer participating in away missions when they would clearly have crew aboard specifically training and on staff to handle away missions.

 

Han Solo and Lando Calirissian were leaders of an insurgency, as opposed to a formal fighting force. Notice how Vader decided to fight ship to ship just when the Death Star was about to blow. You don't even see Palpatine in Episode IV, A glimspe of him in Episode V, and in VI he hides in his death star.

 

An insurgency well-organized enough to have formal ranks, a formal military structure, and a clear chain of command. Again,  there's no reason that Solo (a pilot and a smuggler) should be leading a ground infiltration team, nor Calrissian (a gambler and administrator, and apparently a pilot) leading a tactical assault.

 

U.S. Army, etc...

 

And as I said, you're applying current definitions to a military that doesn't necessary follow current standards, and current biases towards words that may not have the same biases nearly 100 years from now.

[Monica21]

 

Which doesn't explain the presence of the Commanding Officer or the Executive Officer participating in away missions when they would clearly have crew aboard specifically training and on staff to handle away missions.

 

The reason Kirk and Spock (and Shepard et al.) went on "away" missions is because it's a story and not real life. What a boring game it would have been if all Shepard did was stand at the Galaxy Map or sit in quarters and finish paperwork while waiting for people to get back from missions. What a boring show it would have been if all Kirk and Spock did was wait for Sulu and Chekov to get back from missions.

 

I don't think anyone playing Mass Effect believes it bears any kind of real life resemblance to the military.

[Laughing_Man]

Personally, I think that the Normandy should have been under the command of someone else, not Shepard.

As a marine, Shepard probably knows very little about the intricacies of commanding a space vessel.

 

Shaperd can still have final say on big issues as a spectre, but direct command? Seems dumb to me.

 

Regarding the rest:

 

1) Ranks, and calling sailors "soldiers": I don't think it's necessary to assume that the alliance is a copy of the US military,

things could be slightly different when it comes to rank or culture, calling astronauts "sailors" is strange in itself...

 

2) Officers fighting: Again, you are assuming US rules apply here.

Shepard's rank is Commander, but all of his service is that of a spec-ops soldier.

 

 

But in general - yes, Bioware really needs some people with more understanding of Military history and tactics,

because usually they are not very good at portraying believable Military actions or people.

[Heimerdinger]

It's been said a bajillion times:

 

Alliance military = not US military (or any other current day army for that matter)

 

It's a fictional military in a fictional universe 200 years in the future, so current facts about army regulations and ranks don't necessarily need to apply here.

 

Though Bioware could use a military/history consultant, some of their plots involving large battles and strategy (in both ME and DA) sure need the improvement.

[Monica21]

Though Bioware could use a military/history consultant, some of their plots involving large battles and strategy (in both ME and DA) sure need the improvement.

Absolutely 100% agree. Ostagar is one of the most egregious examples of, "... the **** are you doing? "

[Phalanx]

1.) Shepherd, Ashley, and Kaidan are not Soldiers- If They are in the alliance Navy, They are either called Marines or Sailors. If you call a real life Marine a "soldier", you are going to have a bad day. There have been several times during the course of the series that soldier has been grossly misused.

 

One thing I've noticed is that people very often seem to assume that the conventions of the United States military are universal. They're not and there is no reason to assume that the Systems Alliance would follow them in a vastly different environment.

 

Marines are soldiers, regardless of if that's the terms preferred by the USMC.

[Arisugawa]

The reason Kirk and Spock (and Shepard et al.) went on "away" missions is because it's a story and not real life. What a boring game it would have been if all Shepard did was stand at the Galaxy Map or sit in quarters and finish paperwork while waiting for people to get back from missions. What a boring show it would have been if all Kirk and Spock did was wait for Sulu and Chekov to get back from missions.

 

I don't think anyone playing Mass Effect believes it bears any kind of real life resemblance to the military.

 

Chekov (Astrogation / Ship's Weapons) and Sulu (Helmsman) also shouldn't be going on away missions.

 

But yes, we agree that Science Fiction in general and Space Opera in specific tends to error on the side of story rather than authenticity.

[ExoGeniVI]

Kara? She's the best bad-girl fighter of all time!

[Brayton]

Mass Effect is a Space Opera first so I'm not surprised that they let Shepard go onto the ground. Really cinematic but stupid combat scenes are expected.

 

If you wanted military specificity; you'd have to go into Military Sci-fi such as Starship Troopers(The Gran'daddy) and Battletech; which I kinda wish they did pull more from those.

 

Its probably one of the more annoying things because if you listen to the dialogue and read the lines, they have a command structure. None of the soldiers are identified by their powers or abilities but by their rank. And while someone said, 'doesn't equal American military' they specifically use the US Army's chevron system if you look at the Alliance shoulder pads. You can even find them in the texture files.

 

They have ranks and they most likely follow a NATO system since the biggest sponsors would've been the United American States(chevron), the European Union(chevron), India(chevron), China(Army uses Chevrons and is compliant to US military standards), Russia(Uses bar system, but is mostly equivalent to NATO system), Brazil(Chevron) et al.

 

There might be a few ranks outside of what we would consider NATO equivalent but it just makes sense to use an already existing system that's being used by the biggest players in Earth Politics. 

 

The only really confusing thing, sorry for cursing, ass backwards letter system they have going because it doesn't make sense. What does M stand for? Mechanized, I can see that; but most of your military is going to be mechanized meaning the letter system isn't needed. N? Nondisclosure? Does that mean I stands for Intelligence and the number signifies how deep you are in the system?

 

Its that kind of thing. I bet it makes sense in the original core documents but we're left peering in from the outside.

 

Its why I did some research for my own Military Sci-fi I've been writing and reading entries/books from veterans.

[Undead Han]

1.) Shepherd, Ashley, and Kaidan are not Soldiers- If They are in the alliance Navy, They are either called Marines or Sailors. If you call a real life Marine a "soldier", you are going to have a bad day. There have been several times during the course of the series that soldier has been grossly misused.

 

2.) Officers don't do 90% of the fighting- A Commander in the Navy would most likely hang around in the boat all day, and never wield anything more than a pistol. Granted, the Normandy is like some super-secret Special Ops ship. The only enlisted member to set foot on the ground was Jenkins, who promptly died within the first ten minutes of the first game.

 

There are more, but these are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

 

Bioware doesn't necessarily need to hire writers who are military veterans. Plenty of people who weren't veterans themselves have made careers out of writing plausible military fiction. Tom Clancy for example had a very long and successful career of doing just that. The Red Badge of Courage, probably the best work of fiction about the American Civil War, was written by a man who was born 11 years after that war had ended.

 

I do wish however that Bioware at times paid more attention to detail with the military fiction aspects of their stories. While it isn't entirely necessary, it would aid with suspension of disbelief and create a more interesting atmosphere in the game by having more portions of the story being plausible. Real world experience isn't needed to do that, and all the information a writer would need to write plausible military fiction is easily accessed on the internet. 

 

That being said, I disagree with the two points listed as being issues. While you are correct that a person with the equivalent of Shepard's rank wouldn't be leading fire teams into combat in the real world, particularly the captain of a ship, that is one of those elements of realism that has to be sacrificed in order to tell a good story. Also if Shepard were to be reduced in rank to a Corporal to make the gameplay more plausible, in order to be realistic he or she also wouldn't be in command of the Normandy. That would transform Mass Effect from an RPG to a pure FPS, as the game would be entirely on rails and Shepard would neither be responsible for where the Normandy traveled or get to make major decisions that affect the galaxy's fate.

 

Modern U.S. Marines don't refer to themselves as soldiers, and Army personnel usually don't call them soldiers either, but that is more a reflection of modern interservice rivalry than an accurate description of what they do. Technically they are soldiers, its just that they are the Navy's soldiers. Many other countries don't make a distinction between marines and soldiers in terminology, and the U.S. Marines didn't throughout most of their history either. Take these recruiting posters for example, the first from the Civil War and the second from World War One...

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Both refer to Marines as soldiers. I never really had a problem with the Alliance referring to its Marines as soldiers for that reason, as well as the Alliance being formed from all nations on Earth and not just the United States.

 

Where I'd like to see more attention to detail is with things like realistic rank progression, people saluting with the correct hand, officers being college educated, all military characters wearing the same uniforms, and more accuracy with unit organization and operational roles. (i.e. Don't tell me Shepard assaulted the planet Torfan with his 'squad')

[themikefest]

Where I'd like to see more attention to detail is with things like realistic rank progression, people saluting with the correct hand, officers being college educated, all military characters wearing the same uniforms, and more accuracy with unit organization and operational roles. (i.e. Don't tell me Shepard assaulted the planet Torfan with his 'squad')

The other thing is if a character is a sergeant in the game, than keep referring to him/her as a sergeant and not any other rank. With Traynor, she's a Specialist, but is referred as an officer in the game at one point. I would've just made her a Lieutenant  since Specialist isn't even listed in the Alliance ranks. 

[Undead Han]

The other thing is if a character is a sergeant in the game, than keep referring to him/her as a sergeant and not any other rank. With Traynor, she's a Specialist, but is referred as an officer in the game at one point. I would've just made her a Lieutenant  since Specialist isn't even listed in the Alliance ranks. 

 

I kind of liked that Traynor was a specialist because it made her the only named enlisted character of any significance. The series had a tendency to make all the named characters officers, probably because the writers aren't as familiar with the role NCOs or Staff NCOs play within real world militaries. Ashley used to be enlisted, but by ME3 they had made her a Lt. Commander.

 

If it were up to me Vega would have been enlisted as well. I think his personality better matches a young Corporal than it does a Lieutenant anyway.

[Linkenski]

I think ever since Drew AND Chris L'Etoile left Bioware's been in desperate need of a lore consultant or science fact checker. I thought L'Etoile was very good at making the lore sound plausible, and judging by ME3 stuff started to get pretty romantizized or vague everytime there needed to be hard science.

[Sinophile]

Modern U.S. Marines don't refer to themselves as soldiers, and Army personnel usually don't call them soldiers either, but that is more a reflection of modern interservice rivalry than an accurate description of what they do. Technically they are soldiers, its just that they are the Navy's soldiers. Ma

Both refer to Marines as soldiers. I never really had a problem with the Alliance referring to its Marines as soldiers for that reason, as well as the Alliance being formed from all nations on Earth and not just the United States.

 

Where I'd like to see more attention to detail is with things like realistic rank progression, people saluting with the correct hand, officers being college educated, all military characters wearing the same uniforms, and more accuracy with unit organization and operational roles. (i.e. Don't tell me Shepard assaulted the planet Torfan with his 'squad')

The first pic has no mention of "soldier" in it. The second pic refers to Marines as "soldiers of the sea", the same way Jessica Simpson refers to tuna as "chicken of the sea". edit: NVM, I saw soldier in fine print, which makes me curious as to when Marines stopped being referred to as "soldiers" and started being called "marines". Every modern day Marines I've met would be quick to correct you if you caled them a soldier.

 

Also if Shepard were to be reduced in rank to a Corporal to make the gameplay more plausible, in order to be realistic he or she also wouldn't be in command of the Normandy. That would transform Mass Effect from an RPG to a pure FPS, as the game would be entirely on rails and Shepard would neither be responsible for where the Normandy traveled or get to make major decisions that affect the galaxy's fate.

He could have been a mercenary like Roland the Thompson Gunner, like almost all RPG characters in Bioware. In Neverwinter Nights the protagonist worked with the military, but wasn't neccesarily a part of it.  Come to think of it, Allowing Mordin to be in combat was also kinda dumb with him being the science officer. Jack is more expendable since(from my knowledge) she has few skills outside of combat.