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[Ulv Elskeren]

I'm hoping to find someone who can confirm an encounter in the Last Court that was mentioned in another thread- unfortunately, the poster can't recall the criteria that prompted it, and I've had no luck tracking down the relevant event card on the wiki.

 

Can anyone else confirm or give details about the world state that led to the attack?  (Twilight?  Being in the Horned Lord's debt?  History of driving bandits into the woods?)

 

Given that the Tirashan seems to occupy a prehistoric impact crater with a suggestive relationship to Dalish tales of the Sun's defeat, encountering elves branded with unknown (red lyrium) vallaslin there seems... pretty significant.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think elves attacking is just one of the things that can happen at any time in the game. But the most notable thing about them is that they are heretical Dalish clans that worship the Forgotten Ones.

[Ulv Elskeren]

I think elves attacking is just one of the things that can happen at any time in the game. But the most notable thing about them is that they are heretical Dalish clans that worship the Forgotten Ones.

 

Thank you!   Do you remember whether they attack Serault itself, or is this a random encounter during hunting trips?  I can't seem to track down any text for the encounter in walkthroughs or wikis, so playing until it randomly happens might be my only option.  

 

Can anyone confirm/deny the red lyrium vallaslin connection?  Are they just described as unknown patterns?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Thank you!   Do you remember whether they attack Serault itself, or is this a random encounter during hunting trips?  I can't seem to track down any text for the encounter in walkthroughs or wikis, so playing until it randomly happens might be my only option.  

 

Can anyone confirm/deny the red lyrium vallaslin connection?  Are they just described as unknown patterns?

 

No I think it's just that they've attacked the people in the road that go too near the woods or something to that effect. I think the options are to either go after the bandits or reviving the old laws against going near their territory in the woods. I don't remember all the things that was said about them, but I don't remember anything about red Vallaslin. Unless there is a completely separate elf attack event, it's the names of the gods they cry out to that the Serault soldiers say they don't recognize. And the title of that the slide is "The Forgotten Ones."

[dragondreamer]

Yeah, I really hope we can visit the Tirashan some time, so much fascinating stuff over there.

 

I found the screen:

 

 

But the Sun's defeat is actually associated with the Pools of the Sun at Emprise du Lion.  I don't have a screen of that, but I have the text you can get from the landmark on one of the coliseums:

 

Pools of the Sun

According to our legends, what remains of the sun's heat--left in the earth when Elgar'nan threw the sun from the sky and buried it in the abyss--heats the hot springs in the Dales. The waters of the spring have healing qualities; we have always treated them as sacred. Then, of course, Orlesians moved in, scarring them with their garish statuary. But fate is just. Last I heard, dragons had claimed the territory. Let's hope the beasts made a meal of fat nobles who couldn't escape in time.

-Penned by an unknown Dalish elf

 

 

It's interesting that Solas mentions that the Veil is particularly old in the area, and there are very few spirits there.

[Ulv Elskeren]

Yeah, I really hope we can visit the Tirashan some time, so much fascinating stuff over there.

 

I found the screen:

 

 

But the Sun's defeat is actually associated with the Pools of the Sun at Emprise du Lion.  I don't have a screen of that, but I have the text you can get from the landmark on one of the coliseums:

 

 

Thank you both!   That's definitely... interesting.

 

Scars from the Sun's defeat blanket the whole region, if you're willing to attribute the desolation of the Wastes to the heat of his fall-  which is far from certain, I'll admit.  Still, If the Tirashan is an impact crater, it's an incredibly massive one- and its effects are correspondingly widespread.

 

It's interesting that Solas mentions that the Veil is particularly old in the area, and there are very few spirits there.

 

In the Pools of the Sun area, you mean?  Or am I misunderstanding?

[dragondreamer]

Thank you both!   That's definitely... interesting.

 

Scars from the Sun's defeat blanket the whole region, if you're willing to attribute the desolation of the Wastes to the heat of his fall-  which is far from certain, I'll admit.  Still, If the Tirashan is an impact crater, it's an incredibly massive one- and its effects are correspondingly widespread.

 

 

In the Pools of the Sun area, you mean?  Or am I misunderstanding?

 

The Tirashan is a ways up north from the Wastes.  I've certainly considered that *something* happened down there even before the Blight to cause that big rift, and it could certainly be related to the Forgotten Ones and all the ancient elven warring.  But I'm not so sure anymore it has to do with the Sun, whatever that is.

 

I'm more suspicious of the Avvar legends about Korth's old mountain blowing up, since there's an almost undeniable relation between the origins of their gods and the ancient elves.  Although legends place that on the current location of Lake Calenhad, that's still relatively close to the Frostbacks and the Emprise region.  It's also interesting that according the DAI artbook, Skyhold was originally the location of a tree that was meant to be a place of truce between two warring factions.  The original Skyhold was built after the tree was cut down, ending the truce.  The wartable is built from the remains of the tree.

 

When you take Solas to Emprise, he'll occasionally mention that the veil is very old and there aren't many spirits there, it's an ambient dialogue he has.  He says it reminds him of Skyhold.

 

Of course, Dalish legends are flawed, but the landmark about the Pools of the Sun is the only mention of a location related to where the Elgarnan/Sun battle went down.  That Solas considers the area unusual adds a little more weight.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Tirashan is a completely different type of place to the Hissing Wastes, it's an extremely spooky and unexplored dense haunted forest. I can't imagined anything that caused it would be the same thing that caused the Hissing Wastes to be the way they are. I assumed the Dalish elves mentioned above were actually the very type of people that Solas was referring to when he mentioned that some clans have disappeared entirely into the forests.

 

I'm more suspicious of the Avvar legends about Korth's old mountain blowing up, since there's an almost undeniable relation between the origins of their gods and the ancient elves.  Although legends place that on the current location of Lake Calenhad, that's still relatively close to the Frostbacks and the Emprise region.  It's also interesting that according the DAI artbook, Skyhold was originally the location of a tree that was meant to be a place of truce between two warring factions.  The original Skyhold was built after the tree was cut down, ending the truce.  The wartable is built from the remains of the tree.

 

Why? Their religions are totally different. 

[dragondreamer]

Why? Their religions are totally different. 

 

It isn't the religions, it's what lies behind them.  Tyrdda Bright-Ax's leaf-eared lover was a dreamer elf, and Thane Sun-Hair implies that Tyrdda's lover and the Lady of the Skies are the same being.  Considering that it's very likely that Tyrdda's lover was Mythal, that puts things in a different light when you look at the rest of the Avvar mythology.  The Avvar also have a relationship with spirits that seems to echo the ancient elves from what we know of Solas more than the Dalish.  The Avvar ritual of "singing" gods back to life was reminiscent of Solas' imagery of old Elvhenan's "endless symphonies" (and his explanation of spirit death and rebirth), not to mention the Chantry's belief that the Maker will return if enough people sing the Chant...which may have been something adapted from Andraste's own Alamarri background, since the Alamarri and the Avvar had the same gods, they probably also had similar beliefs.  Depending on what theory you subscribe to where Andraste is concerned, it might have more meaning.

[Beomer]

It isn't the religions, it's what lies behind them.  Tyrdda Bright-Ax's leaf-eared lover was a dreamer elf, and Thane Sun-Hair implies that Tyrdda's lover and the Lady of the Skies are the same being.  Considering that it's very likely that Tyrdda's lover was Mythal, that puts things in a different light when you look at the rest of the Avvar mythology.  The Avvar also have a relationship with spirits that seems to echo the ancient elves from what we know of Solas more than the Dalish.  The Avvar ritual of "singing" gods back to life was reminiscent of Solas' imagery of old Elvhenan's "endless symphonies" (and his explanation of spirit death and rebirth), not to mention the Chantry's belief that the Maker will return if enough people sing the Chant...which may have been something adapted from Andraste's own Alamarri background, since the Alamarri and the Avvar had the same gods, they probably also had similar beliefs.  Depending on what theory you subscribe to where Andraste is concerned, it might have more meaning.

 

 

This theory makes so much sense. It also makes you wonder if the 'song' the Wardens and Darkspawn hear is also somehow related to this. (if you subscribe to the Tainted Arlathan=Black City theory).

[Ulv Elskeren]

The Tirashan is a ways up north from the Wastes.  I've certainly considered that *something* happened down there even before the Blight to cause that big rift, and it could certainly be related to the Forgotten Ones and all the ancient elven warring.  But I'm not so sure anymore it has to do with the Sun, whatever that is.

 

It's definitely debateable.   There are, I think, some dropped hints in DA:Asunder that something that had been buried beneath the earth escaped and created the Abyssal Chasm- something bigger and darker than the darkspawn that used it as a convenient path to the surface during the later blight.    "...the chasm […] was a wound in the side of the world.  Long ago, something had split the ground apart and let out something dark, something that lingered like the smoke after a fire.”  

 

The description of the surrounding wastes is similarly leading:  "It was a cold desert, mottled purple like an unhealed bruise.  Rocky pillars jutted out of the sand like brittle, twisted bones; there was a sense that the howling winds had long covered everything else.  Even so, it didn’t seem forbidding and horrible…. Just stark, and perhaps even a little sad.  It was as if the world mourned a mortal injury inflicted long ago.”    

 

Given what little we know of prehistory, I think it might be accurate to substitute the primordial entity "Earth" here for "the world".   There's also the point that, given the relative apparent size and angle of impact the Tirashan crater suggests, the Pools could well be directly above where the Sun was theoretically imprisoned.  

 

Spoiler

 

Add this to various theories about the Earth, the Stone, and the first Dark Ritual as well as Cole's cryptic allusions to The Prophecy II, and things start looking... kind of suspicious.

 

I'm more suspicious of the Avvar legends about Korth's old mountain blowing up, since there's an almost undeniable relation between the origins of their gods and the ancient elves.  Although legends place that on the current location of Lake Calenhad, that's still relatively close to the Frostbacks and the Emprise region.  It's also interesting that according the DAI artbook, Skyhold was originally the location of a tree that was meant to be a place of truce between two warring factions.  The original Skyhold was built after the tree was cut down, ending the truce.  The wartable is built from the remains of the tree.

 

I could be wrong (I don't have the art book!) but I didn't think it directly states that the Tree of Peace was planted where Skyhold now stands, does it?  Only that it was cut down to make the War Table before Skyhold's foundations were laid.   There's actually a post about the Tree of Peace, the Avvar/Norse Yggdrasil, and the enormous cut elm in Frostback Basin over here that (to me!) makes a fairly convincing counter-argument.

 

I'd also be surprised if the Avvar had legends that touched on the Earth or the Sun, since I believe we're talking about primordial entities that even the Dalish can barely recall.  In light of Andruil's ToM codex entry, I suspect the myth of Belanas relates to later Pantheon- specifically her red lyrium showdown here.  From this perspective, the Lady of the Skies is more likely Ghilan'nain, mourning Andruil when she falls to dragon-form Mythal.  (Which also fits a bit better with the Lady's direct connection to birds of the sky: in Dalish myth, those are the creations Ghilan'nain presents as a special gift to Andruil when she's elevated to Pantheon.)

 

Anyway, just some thoughts. Thank you again for the screenshot!  The potential for a direct Sun connection seems much less likely with a title like "The Forgotten Ones", but the color of their vallaslin is still really interesting.  Or worrying.   

[dragondreamer]

 

This theory makes so much sense. It also makes you wonder if the 'song' the Wardens and Darkspawn hear is also somehow related to this. (if you subscribe to the Tainted Arlathan=Black City theory).

 

Everything sings, it's very eerie!  I do think there's some relation there, especially if the origin of the Archdemons and Darkspawn is ancient elven, which seems very likely post-DAI.  (I don't think the elves created the Blight, but I think they certainly weaponized it.)  I don't really subscribe to Arlathan/Black City theory, but I have some thoughts on that below.

 

It's definitely debateable.   There are, I think, some dropped hints in DA:Asunder that something that had been buried beneath the earth escaped and created the Abyssal Chasm- something bigger and darker than the darkspawn that used it as a convenient path to the surface during the later blight.    "...the chasm […] was a wound in the side of the world.  Long ago, something had split the ground apart and let out something dark, something that lingered like the smoke after a fire.”  

 

The description of the surrounding wastes is similarly leading:  "It was a cold desert, mottled purple like an unhealed bruise.  Rocky pillars jutted out of the sand like brittle, twisted bones; there was a sense that the howling winds had long covered everything else.  Even so, it didn’t seem forbidding and horrible…. Just stark, and perhaps even a little sad.  It was as if the world mourned a mortal injury inflicted long ago.”    

 

Given what little we know of prehistory, I think it might be accurate to substitute the primordial entity "Earth" here for "the world".   There's also the point that, given the relative apparent size and angle of impact the Tirashan crater suggests, the Pools could well be directly above where the Sun was theoretically imprisoned.  

 

Spoiler

 

Add this to various theories about the Earth, the Stone, and the first Dark Ritual as well as Cole's cryptic allusions to The Prophecy II, and things start looking... kind of suspicious.

 

 

I could be wrong (I don't have the art book!) but I didn't think it directly states that the Tree of Peace was planted where Skyhold now stands, does it?  Only that it was cut down to make the War Table before Skyhold's foundations were laid.   There's actually a post about the Tree of Peace, the Avvar/Norse Yggdrasil, and the enormous cut elm in Frostback Basin over here that (to me!) makes a fairly convincing counter-argument.

 

I'd also be surprised if the Avvar had legends that touched on the Earth or the Sun, since I believe we're talking about primordial entities that even the Dalish can barely recall.  In light of Andruil's ToM codex entry, I suspect the myth of Belanas relates to later Pantheon- specifically her red lyrium showdown here.  From this perspective, the Lady of the Skies is more likely Ghilan'nain, mourning Andruil when she falls to dragon-form Mythal.  (Which also fits a bit better with the Lady's direct connection to birds of the sky: in Dalish myth, those are the creations Ghilan'nain presents as a special gift to Andruil when she's elevated to Pantheon.)

 

Anyway, just some thoughts. Thank you again for the screenshot!  The potential for a direct Sun connection seems much less likely with a title like "The Forgotten Ones", but the color of their vallaslin is still really interesting.  Or worrying.   

 

The Pools of the Sun are over in Emprise du Lion, in the Frostbacks, they're hot springs.  That's on the opposite side of Orlais from the Tirashan and the Nashin Marshes.

 

The description of the wastes in Asunder as unhealing is mostly referring to the lingering Blight, although as I said before, I suspect the rift in the landscape may have been the result of ancient elven warring.  I'm still not convinced it's directly linked to the Sun battle though.  Large scale warfare between the elves seems to have not been uncommon.  I'm more suspicious of it being related to the Forgotten Ones, especially being out west, where we see more evidence of them (such as their worshippers in the Tirashan).  The Forgotten Ones are also stated to dwell in the Void, which is equated to the abyss, which is typically used to describe the deep underground...which is also where the Darkspawn come from.  There's also a particularly creepy place in Emprise that's hidden beneath Suledin Keep, which is ancient elven, like the coliseums nearby.  The place down the hidden passage, a long stairwell that leads to a big black nothingness.  Suledin Keep is also just across the way from the Pools of the Sun.

 

The part in the artbook about the Peace Tree:

 

Peace Tree and War Table

 

As a living tree, it was a symbol of peace between two forgotten factions.  Before the first stones of Skyhold's foundations were laid, the tree was cut down, slabbed, and polished to serve as a massive war table.

 

 

It isn't explicit about the tree's location, but still seems implicit to me.  There's also a picture of the tree before it was cut down, and it doesn't resemble the ultra huge trees in the Frostback Basin.  Kinda looks like an oak.

 

I'll give you that Belenas probably isn't directly connected to the Sun business, though I still believe proximity to the Frostbacks and the former Peace Tree isn't an accident.  The Pools of the Sun and the creepy abyss under the immediate area remains my prime suspect. 

 

To ramble a bit about Belenas, as related to the previous post:  Belenas, being Korth's old mountain, was according to the story in that codex, lifted into the skies, the Lady's realm. Yet in another older codex, there's also a story that it was destroyed, leaving only the crater that became Lake Calenhad.  So which is it?  Maybe both?  To quote Cole about the rocks floating in the Fade, "they still remember when they were higher, before it woke up, and everything fell."  What if Belenas was originally the mountain home to some elven god, and although it was physically destroyed, it still remains in the Fade, even if most of it is in pieces.  Except for the city at the top, still floating up there...

 

This would have been well before Arlathan, since that fell long after the elven gods were locked away, presumably the Creators in the Eternal City (which may have gone boom), and the Forgotten Ones in the abyss (which may explain the sleeping Old God dragons deep underground).

 

(My other theory about the Black City is that it's actually deep in the planet, likely at the center by the means of the ancient elves' technology that allowed them to create pocket realms via eluvians.  Because if the Fade reflects reality, if skewed, then something that could be seen from anywhere in the Fade would have to exist at some central point.  Rocks in the sky might also suggest the Fade is presenting reality in an inverted fashion.  The location would mean that it's impossible to reach in any conventional way aside from an eluvian that was specifically designed to access it (and if Masked Empire is any indication, would require a password), or directly hacking through the Fade, which was how the magisters did it, and Corypheus attempted to do again. In this theory, the Black City is actually the bastion of the Forgotten Ones, and considering that they dwelled in the Void with the Blight, and the Blight is what the magisters unleashed there, it adds up.)

 

When it comes to the Sun myth, the major question that muddles things is: Who and what exactly was the "Sun"?  I'm doubtful it was literally the Sun, but I think something happened there.  Whether it was simply an overthrowing of a power older than the elves (dragons? more elves?) or something more lost and obscure.  If we really wanted to go out on a limb, maybe that was the Maker.  Whatever he is.  Back to the same question.

 

It feels good to ramble theories again.    The red vallaslin elves in the Tirashan are *very* interesting, since red is very *Blight* related now, and that just adds fuel to the fire that the Forgotten Ones were dabbling in the Blight to fuel their power...

[Ulv Elskeren]

 

The Pools of the Sun are over in Emprise du Lion, in the Frostbacks, they're hot springs.  That's on the opposite side of Orlais from the Tirashan and the Nashin Marshes.

 

*shakes herself*  Whoa, yes!   I have no idea how I confused those two- though looking at the correct hotsprings, they seem... awfully small to be the result of a Sun entity "buried in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow".  Dalish transposition, possibly?  Given that the natural laws of our world generally have a literal theological basis in Thedas, the geothermal activity involved (as well as the lava that powered the ancient Thaigs) does seem to require a historic source- whether or not that source remains buried in the modern day is another matter.

 

The description of the wastes in Asunder as unhealing is mostly referring to the lingering Blight, although as I said before, I suspect the rift in the landscape may have been the result of ancient elven warring.  I'm still not convinced it's directly linked to the Sun battle though.  Large scale warfare between the elves seems to have not been uncommon.  I'm more suspicious of it being related to the Forgotten Ones, especially being out west, where we see more evidence of them (such as their worshippers in the Tirashan).  The Forgotten Ones are also stated to dwell in the Void, which is equated to the abyss, which is typically used to describe the deep underground...which is also where the Darkspawn come from.  There's also a particularly creepy place in Emprise that's hidden beneath Suledin Keep, which is ancient elven, like the coliseums nearby.  The place down the hidden passage, a long stairwell that leads to a big black nothingness.  Suledin Keep is also just across the way from the Pools of the Sun.

 

Yeah.  The blight is the lampshade explanation- and like you, I'm not entirely convinced.  (Same goes for the Silent Plains, for that matter.)  I'm not sure I'd equate the Void with the Abyss, however.  They're used interchangeably in the modern day, but I believe they're conceptually quite different- and which is depicted as "Hell" seems to depend on which faction had the upper hand at the time the mythology was established.  Looking at the crazy tone change within Transfigurations actually suggests two Makers: one in the Void, and one in the Abyss.  

 

If we start with the assumption that Dalish myth isn't entirely wrong, then it seems clear the Abyss refers to a domain deep beneath the earth. Not coincidentally, this is also the default location for "Hell" in Judeo-Christian terms.  Consider how that perspective maps to the Maker as the "fire at the heart of the world" in Transfigurations 12, and note how his faithful will be "made to rest in the warmest places".  (The fact that this is a Maker of "endless pride" who demands complete obedience is another significant distinction.)

 

In contrast to the heat of the Abyss, the Void is most often associated with cold and Silence.  The reference is, I believe, to the literal void of space.  If matter can be conceived of as music- which is not much of a stretch, given string theory / the wave nature of all energy and matter- then the vacuum of space is Silence.  It's not the sundered Song, it's no Song at all- Void.  This, of course, is where the Sun (at the very least its body, if not its OGS) obviously currently is, and has been since time immemorial, long before humanity came on the scene.

 

And, of course, other parts of the Chant present this as the true seat of the Maker.  "Cross the Veil and the Fade and all the stars in the sky, rest at the Maker's right hand, and be forgiven."  Note how this Void also maps in the most general respects to early Judeo-Christian Heaven (an unreachable place in the sky, up above the clouds).  The Chant of Light describes the magisters' first impressions of the Golden City as including "a river of Light" above them (the Milky Way), while "all around them echoed a vast Silence", and they're later described as "burning across the sky like falling stars" after being cast from the Maker's domain- which again suggests the void of space.

 

So where, exactly, are the Forgotten Ones?  On the one hand, knowing how brightly some spirits seem to shine, it's hard to shake the idea of Forgotten Ones' OGSes as being planetary bodies trapped in the Void, their bodies stored behind eluvians located in the physical Black City deep beneath the earth.  (In the "heart of the world".)  On the other, Ghilan'nain's creatures of the Abyss- the ones Pride prevented her from destroying- seem to map better to our understanding of punishment during the time of Arlathan, as well as Solas' personal connection to the monstrous form of the Dread Wolf. 

 

So obviously, I'm still wrestling with the whole thing.      If there's a way to way to reconcile the two, I'm open to suggestions.  The crazier, the better.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It isn't the religions, it's what lies behind them.  Tyrdda Bright-Ax's leaf-eared lover was a dreamer elf, and Thane Sun-Hair implies that Tyrdda's lover and the Lady of the Skies are the same being.  Considering that it's very likely that Tyrdda's lover was Mythal, that puts things in a different light when you look at the rest of the Avvar mythology.  The Avvar also have a relationship with spirits that seems to echo the ancient elves from what we know of Solas more than the Dalish.  The Avvar ritual of "singing" gods back to life was reminiscent of Solas' imagery of old Elvhenan's "endless symphonies" (and his explanation of spirit death and rebirth), not to mention the Chantry's belief that the Maker will return if enough people sing the Chant...which may have been something adapted from Andraste's own Alamarri background, since the Alamarri and the Avvar had the same gods, they probably also had similar beliefs.  Depending on what theory you subscribe to where Andraste is concerned, it might have more meaning.

 

Why is it very likely that Tyrdda's lover is Mythal? What hint has there ever been that the Lady of the Skies is the same as Mythal? Near as I can understand, the Avvar Gods are spirits from the fade that have taken on the identity of the ideas of gods that the Avvar worship. Why wouldn't the Lady of the Skies be that? The Creators are almost certainly something else.

[dragondreamer]

*shakes herself*  Whoa, yes!   I have no idea how I confused those two- though looking at the correct hotsprings, they seem... awfully small to be the result of a Sun entity "buried in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow".  Dalish transposition, possibly?  Given that the natural laws of our world generally have a literal theological basis in Thedas, the geothermal activity involved (as well as the lava that powered the ancient Thaigs) does seem to require a historic source- whether or not that source remains buried in the modern day is another matter.

 

 

Yeah.  The blight is the lampshade explanation- and like you, I'm not entirely convinced.  (Same goes for the Silent Plains, for that matter.)  I'm not sure I'd equate the Void with the Abyss, however.  They're used interchangeably in the modern day, but I believe they're conceptually quite different- and which is depicted as "Hell" seems to depend on which faction had the upper hand at the time the mythology was established.  Looking at the crazy tone change within Transfigurations actually suggests two Makers: one in the Void, and one in the Abyss.  

 

If we start with the assumption that Dalish myth isn't entirely wrong, then it seems clear the Abyss refers to a domain deep beneath the earth. Not coincidentally, this is also the default location for "Hell" in Judeo-Christian terms.  Consider how that perspective maps to the Maker as the "fire at the heart of the world" in Transfigurations 12, and note how his faithful will be "made to rest in the warmest places".  (The fact that this is a Maker of "endless pride" who demands complete obedience is another significant distinction.)

 

In contrast to the heat of the Abyss, the Void is most often associated with cold and Silence.  The reference is, I believe, to the literal void of space.  If matter can be conceived of as music- which is not much of a stretch, given string theory / the wave nature of all energy and matter- then the vacuum of space is Silence.  It's not the sundered Song, it's no Song at all- Void.  This, of course, is where the Sun (at the very least its body, if not its OGS) obviously currently is, and has been since time immemorial, long before humanity came on the scene.

 

And, of course, other parts of the Chant present this as the true seat of the Maker.  "Cross the Veil and the Fade and all the stars in the sky, rest at the Maker's right hand, and be forgiven."  Note how this Void also maps in the most general respects to early Judeo-Christian Heaven (an unreachable place in the sky, up above the clouds).  The Chant of Light describes the magisters' first impressions of the Golden City as including "a river of Light" above them (the Milky Way), while "all around them echoed a vast Silence", and they're later described as "burning across the sky like falling stars" after being cast from the Maker's domain- which again suggests the void of space.

 

So where, exactly, are the Forgotten Ones?  On the one hand, knowing how brightly some spirits seem to shine, it's hard to shake the idea of Forgotten Ones' OGSes as being planetary bodies trapped in the Void, their bodies stored behind eluvians located in the physical Black City deep beneath the earth.  (In the "heart of the world".)  On the other, Ghilan'nain's creatures of the Abyss- the ones Pride prevented her from destroying- seem to map better to our understanding of punishment during the time of Arlathan, as well as Solas' personal connection to the monstrous form of the Dread Wolf. 

 

So obviously, I'm still wrestling with the whole thing.      If there's a way to way to reconcile the two, I'm open to suggestions.  The crazier, the better.

 

One of the most direct references to the Void being in the abyss (or the same thing possibly) comes from one of the new DAI codexes, which is stated to be a translation of ancient elven rather than Dalish myth.  It's among the "corrected elven legend" codexes we get at the temple of Mythal.

http://dragonage.wik...ven_God_Andruil

 

 

I'm really dubious about the Chantry being anymore accurate than the Dalish on what's really going on, but the Maker is often associated with fire (hay dragons), whether literal or more metaphysical when it comes to the implied associations with magic and the Fade/creation.  So the Maker would be the source of any warmth, not the location of his seat.  And if the Maker doesn't currently exist, then it's no wonder Cory and friends found nothing in the Black City.  Maybe the Void exists because the Maker isn't there. 

 

Maybe Andraste unwittingly sang him back to life for the first time since Elgar'nan smited him to bits in prehistory (if that's how it actually went down), and he ended up being an Avvar-style abomination with Andraste.  Then he died with her, and her followers have been absolute failures at rezzing him because the Chantry teachings unknowingly created psychological road-blocks that have made it impossible:  Scary spirits!  Magic bad!  FearFearFear...  We can see how much things changed from Ameridan's time, and that was already long removed from Andraste's time, during which even more intention was undoubtedly lost.

 

Or maybe Andraste was an OGB of Mythal or Dumat, and the Maker and the Sun had nothing to do with it.  Or she had someone else whispering in her head.

 

Clearly I can't quite decide on things either, so I'm really not going to be much help sorting things out, lol.

 

When it comes to the "where are they now" question, I still default to "Old Gods are Forgotten Ones imprisoned in the earth" and "Creators are stuck in the Black City and/or behind eluvians"...  There's obviously issues, but the general ideas are straightforward, and I think those are probably sound, even without all the details.  It's at odds with the Black City being in the Void, for example.  But if the City is something more along the lines of the Belenas theory, the explanation for the Blight unlocking from there is still missing.  If the Golden City and the Black City were actually two different states of a place occupying the same space, it might be similar to your theory.  But even trying to figure out how that would work makes my head hurt in brand new ways. 

 

Some of the Constellation codexes in DAI made me consider that the Creators might be the Old Gods, but after JoH, that seems much less likely.  The idea that the Forgotten Ones were trying to supplant the Creators is what I've been going with.  Especially if they were spiteful enough to get the Tevinters to finish off the last remaining city of their rivals.  A mere 20 years after Arlathan is crushed, the Old Gods get the Tevinters to do their dirty work one last time, before going silent (or maybe only silent to the Tevinters, those dragons apparently sing very loudly).  The rest is history.

 

Why is it very likely that Tyrdda's lover is Mythal? What hint has there ever been that the Lady of the Skies is the same as Mythal? Near as I can understand, the Avvar Gods are spirits from the fade that have taken on the identity of the ideas of gods that the Avvar worship. Why wouldn't the Lady of the Skies be that? The Creators are almost certainly something else.

 

The Avvar Gods aren't commonly identified as dreamer elves.  That's what's really strange about Tyrdda's lover being identified as the Lady of the Skies.  What the Avvar are currently manifesting as their gods isn't necessarily relevant to Tyrdda's experience, and how it essentially was the foundation of their culture.  We still don't really know what the Creators are either.  The Hakkon dragon god was stated to be the same type of being as an Archdemon, just without all the Blight issues.  Mythal is/was currently a wisp manifested through a woman who resonated strongly enough to essentially reincarnate her will.  That's not really that different from what the Avvar were doing manifesting their gods, or what the Jaws of Hakkon did when they placed Hakkon into a dragon.  It also lines up with what Solas tells us about how spirits can be "reborn".  Even some people, according to the Avvar.  The line from Tyrdda's codex, "One day child of Tyrdda's blood,  Morrighan'nan, in strength must shine" is also an eyebrow raiser.

 

It's also a bit suspicious that the power behind Hakkon is linked to an ancient elven tomb with an inscription left by someone identifying themself by the name of one of the Forgotten Ones. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Avvar Gods aren't commonly identified as dreamer elves.  That's what's really strange about Tyrdda's lover being identified as the Lady of the Skies.  What the Avvar are currently manifesting as their gods isn't necessarily relevant to Tyrdda's experience, and how it essentially was the foundation of their culture.  We still don't really know what the Creators are either.  The Hakkon dragon god was stated to be the same type of being as an Archdemon, just without all the Blight issues.  Mythal is/was currently a wisp manifested through a woman who resonated strongly enough to essentially reincarnate her will.  That's not really that different from what the Avvar were doing manifesting their gods, or what the Jaws of Hakkon did when they placed Hakkon into a dragon.  It also lines up with what Solas tells us about how spirits can be "reborn".  Even some people, according to the Avvar.  The line from Tyrdda's codex, "One day child of Tyrdda's blood,  Morrighan'nan, in strength must shine" is also an eyebrow raiser.

 

It's also a bit suspicious that the power behind Hakkon is linked to an ancient elven tomb with an inscription left by someone identifying themself by the name of one of the Forgotten Ones. 

 

I still am not following you. Why is the Avvar Gods not being elven dreamers strange? I also don't see why the Avvar conception of their gods would be any different now than when it used to be in Tyrdda's time.

 

The Haakon Dragon is similar to an Archdemon but he's not quite the same thing, besides the general idea of being "a dragon-god." We still don't know what the Old Gods are exactly, but they have some sort of connection to the darkspawn. The dragon in Jaws of Haakon was a fade (specifically the one that took on the identity of Haakon) spirit bound to a High Dragon. There are a couple differences: Most notably, the Avvar dragon-god could talk. 

 

Mythal is different from a spirit I think, because what Solas describes is that eventually a similar but not quite the same idea may form in the Fade. And it would likely not remember him. Mythal, by contrast appears to be exactly the same being that was "killed" in ancient times. She has the same exact feelings, motives and memories of Mythal. She still remembers Fen'Harel, and she wants revenge for being betrayed. That's much more specific than the general reincarnation of spirits that Solas and the Avvar describe.

 

The line about Morrighan'nan is not a reference to Morrigan. It's a reference to an Avvar legend that the Ash Warriors can tell the Warden in Ostagar. 

[Ulv Elskeren]

I still am not following you. Why is the Avvar Gods not being elven dreamers strange? I also don't see why the Avvar conception of their gods would be any different now than when it used to be in Tyrdda's time.

 

Not to jump in before dragondreamer can reply, but you're assuming quite a bit in all this.  First, the assumption that the Avvar religion is a binary scenario: that their Gods are either entirely Pantheon, or entirely spirit.   This, I believe, is not the case.  

 

Avvar lore that dates back to the founding of their people (critically, before the fall of Arlathan and the sealing of the Pantheon) describe the Lady of the Skies as Tyrrda's "leaf-eared lover"- a direct reference to the Lady's apparently elvhen features.  The saga also makes it clear Tyrrda is not interacting with the Lady in dreams, but as a companion in the physical world.  This doesn't preclude the original Lady from being a Cole-like entity of course, but that's a somewhat unnecessarily complex explanation when the simpler one- the Lady being a member of the elvhen Pantheon - fits just as well.

 

That said, it seems clear that whatever the origin of the Avvar gods may have been originally- and again, there's a fair amount of correlative evidence that suggests their most prominent Gods map to members of the Pantheon- the Avvar had no problem accepting new spirits to fill those roles when they became vacant.

 

Mythal is different from a spirit I think, because what Solas describes is that eventually a similar but not quite the same idea may form in the Fade. And it would likely not remember him. Mythal, by contrast appears to be exactly the same being that was "killed" in ancient times. She has the same exact feelings, motives and memories of Mythal. She still remembers Fen'Harel, and she wants revenge for being betrayed. That's much more specific than the general reincarnation of spirits that Solas and the Avvar describe.

 

I have to disagree here.   I think there's a significant difference between a sentient entity dying and a spirit being destroyed on this side of the veil.  In the first case, the being's "soul" is released back into the fade- it continues to exist in some fashion.  In the latter, the spirit is actually destroyed and may -or may not- reform.  And while there does seem to be a memory-wiping element in passing through the veil, beings that are bound to the reincarnation cycle (entities with "Old God Souls") seem to retain certain fundamental traits throughout.  Mythal, of course, is the ultimate exception.  It's possible that her domain, (the Fade itself, realm of emotion and memory) preserves her connection to all the lives that have come before.  It's also possible that Mythal's practice of being passed from daughter to daughter sidesteps passing through the veil, (as we suppose the Dark Ritual does in preserving Urthemiel's OGS) which hardly makes it a surprise that she retains her memories from one life to the next.  

 

So while Mythal is different, she's not necessarily fundamentally so.  At least, not in any way that would make it unlikely for her to be the original Lady of the Skies.  

 

That she is not, I think, rests on other data: namely the strong correlation between Avvar tales of Korth and the Lady and Dalish myths involving Andruil and Ghilan'nain.  That said, it's also entirely possible that over time Avvar myth has fused elements of more than one being into one, creating a hybrid deity out of the actions of several historic entities.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"Leaf Eared Lover" never struck me as a reference to elven features. Avvar  presumably know what elves look like, elves lived everywhere. It sounded like more the features that would exist in a spirit, like the Lady of the Forest. 

 

Second, we don't know exactly what happened to the Elven Pantheon, or when.

[Dai Grepher]

It isn't the religions, it's what lies behind them.  Tyrdda Bright-Ax's leaf-eared lover was a dreamer elf, and Thane Sun-Hair implies that Tyrdda's lover and the Lady of the Skies are the same being.  Considering that it's very likely that Tyrdda's lover was Mythal, that puts things in a different light when you look at the rest of the Avvar mythology.  The Avvar also have a relationship with spirits that seems to echo the ancient elves from what we know of Solas more than the Dalish.  The Avvar ritual of "singing" gods back to life was reminiscent of Solas' imagery of old Elvhenan's "endless symphonies" (and his explanation of spirit death and rebirth), not to mention the Chantry's belief that the Maker will return if enough people sing the Chant...which may have been something adapted from Andraste's own Alamarri background, since the Alamarri and the Avvar had the same gods, they probably also had similar beliefs.  Depending on what theory you subscribe to where Andraste is concerned, it might have more meaning.

 

Yeah but the Maker is said to have only turned to Andraste because her singing was beautiful. She was actually singing to false gods. The Maker didn't care about that though. So I don't see how the singing can correlate to the Maker in the same way Avvar singing correlates to spirits. Also, the Chant of Light isn't a song that is sung in the literal sense. It's a book of passages that are chanted or proclaimed.