22 réponses à ce sujet

[Snowdog65]

I have always thought the NWN2 OC and MOTB crafting systems were ridiculous.

 

I have played a couple of mods recently and find it just as ridiculous again to include them.

 

Most recently I built a party of character equipped them by spending only level appropriate money on each member (mostly just +2 gear and maybe a special item) and coming into Black Scourge of Candle Cove with almost no money (~1500gp total) so I was scrounging just meet some fee I needed to pay.  When I noticed the crafting.

 

Problem #1:

 

With full crafting was in place, and unlimited supplies of Duskwood and Adamantine, I could essentially print money in the thousands per item with just basic crafting.

 

When this happens, I wonder, intentional or slip up? Because now I could easily buy anything/everything in any shop just by crafting and selling Duskwood bows, Adamantine Armor.

 

Something should be changed here. Perhaps the resale value of Duskwood Bows and Adamantine Armor should be negligibly more than the cost of components used to build them.  Because everyone would flood the market with them until prices drop until the easy money is gone.

 

Problem #2: (Different module)

 

This module not only included unlimited Duskwood/Adamantine, but also Kings Tears, Diamonds etc... So essentially you could just park and craft Uber weapons.

 

IMO this devalues items/rewards you get from question when you can just build anything. Not to mention uber everything will likely unbalance things.

 

IMO it would be much better to just script a few special reward items crafted by the NPC smith (If you bring me x, I can build you one +3 weapon..). It keeps things from getting out of hand and is a lot more satisfying.

 

Just unleashing a silly crafting system leads to a mess of (unintended?) consequences.

 

 

[Tchos]

A logical solution: Make crafting advance a timer to as far forward as it's supposed to take to craft these items according to the rule books, and once enough time has passed, you lose the game, because the bad guys won while you were working a crafting trade.

 

I prefer not to put restrictions like that in place, though.  It's up to the player to roleplay.  I'll give rewards for roleplaying on occasion, but I don't enforce it.

[kamal_]

That's not a problem of the crafting system per se, that's a problem of the resources availability in the module and the zero time required for crafting. Most likely something overlooked by the author (we try to think of everything, but we are only human).

[Tchos]

Nope, not overlooked in one of the cited examples.

 

And in fact, the solution I suggested was actually implemented in the game Darklands.

[Snowdog65]

A logical solution: Make crafting advance a timer to as far forward as it's supposed to take to craft these items according to the rule books, and once enough time has passed, you lose the game, because the bad guys won while you were working a crafting trade.

 

I prefer not to put restrictions like that in place, though.  It's up to the player to roleplay.  I'll give rewards for roleplaying on occasion, but I don't enforce it.

 

So enable crafting, but lose the game if you use it. That is a terrible "solution".

 

Either restrict resources (which the NWN OC does) or remove the profit from selling the items.

[Tchos]

It doesn't make any sense to remove the profit from crafting.  That's one of the reasons it exists.

 

Taking the example I mentioned before -- In Darklands, money is tight.  You have the option at any time to do normal work in town for normal wages.  If you keep doing this for as long as it takes to save up enough to outfit yourself with high level gear, you will find that you have gotten old, and can no longer go adventuring.  It's a pretty reasonable idea.  And, if crafting time were implemented into NWN2 as per the D&D rules, that would happen here, too.  It takes longer and longer to craft more expensive gear, and the game could conceivably be lost if you crafted even one piece of high-level gear according to those time rules, assuming the villains are actually taking action and not waiting for the PC to act.

 

We discussed the matter of restrictions and player agency in detail when I was working on the campaign, in my development diary, and for numerous reasons I will not restrict players from enjoying the game however they like.  People play these games for different reasons, and some want to make it easy for themselves.  If they want to exploit the mechanics and make things easy, and they enjoy it, let them.  Even if I wanted to, I couldn't stop people from buying up everything in the shops, because they can simply use the console to give themselves as much gold as they want.  If you think something shouldn't be done, then don't do it.  That's all there is to it.

[Snowdog65]

IMO, there is a huge difference between someone using a debug console to override the module, and the author providing an in game mechanic for easy cash on purpose. One is obvious not the intent, the other seems like it is.

 

I don't like having to guess that the author provided something, but didn't really intend for it to be used??

[Tchos]

I do intend it to be used, but only as far as the player thinks it is fair, convenient, and/or challenging to do so.  I explained a bit about this philosophy in the introduction to the module in the book in the beginning room.  I may not have specifically mentioned crafting, but I did explain that I encourage players to play it according to their own preferences, and suggested some ways of making the experience easier or harder, as they prefer.

 

This is the same reason I have the temple charging the pen & paper price for raising the dead (5000 gp), which buys you the raising framed by a little RP vignette, and yet you can alternatively simply purchase cheap scrolls of Raise Dead, which do not incur the pen & paper material cost.  I'm catering to multiple play styles.  If some players don't like the mechanic of having to raise gold through side quests (which is how I prefer to do it, personally), then I want them to be able to get to the parts of the game that they do like.  Just understand that as long as you began the game with the expected amount of gold/gear for your level according to the pen & paper rules (given automatically if you choose to level up a new character), you should be able to raise the money without crafting.

 

The funny thing is, the same day as this thread, where I'm defending mechanics that make things voluntarily easy for players, I was also defending something that made things voluntarily harder for the players.  I was defending the concept of perma-death (which is not something I have in my campaign) against someone who questioned why a certain game even made it possible to recruit new companions to replace ones that had been "chunked" (damaged so far beyond 0 HP that they could no longer be raised from the dead, as in Baldur's Gate), since "everyone" would obviously just reload the game if that happened.  And that's not the case.  Not everyone would.  It is expected that those who want the challenge of playing through setbacks like that will use the guild hall to recruit a new companion, and voluntarily not reload the game, even though reloading is an in-game mechanic provided without restriction, just as crafting is here.

 

Have you ever played a module where resting was restricted so that it was not possible to rest after every fight?  Many argue that unrestricted resting removes the challenge of dungeon crawls, since you can heal up and refresh your spells each time, which is clearly exploiting game mechanics that are provided without restriction.  But I've seen a lot of complaints against modules that try to remedy this by putting a time limit on resting, so that for instance you can only rest once every 30 realtime minutes of play, and I think those complaints are justified.  But anything less than that relies on the players voluntarily exercising as much restraint as they feel is proper, because even when some areas are set not to allow resting, there's usually nothing to stop the player from going back to a safe area and resting there.

 

All this is to say that when in doubt, I err on the side of player freedom.  It's one of my foundational design principles, and a lot of thought and discussion went into it.

[Arkalezth]

Just make resources limited in shops? It makes sense, and that way you can make a bit of money or craft an uber piece of gear or two, but nothing past that. The crafter needs to spend feats on it after all, so it's a fair trade IMO.

Merchants in some modules have a money cap, and won't buy anything past that point (unless you buy something from them, of course). I find this mechanic annoying if the game also throws at you tons of useless loot you can't sell, but I suppose it's another solution.

Then again, I just played Tchos' module and I didn't craft anything.

[Snowdog65]

Just make resources limited in shops? It makes sense, and that way you can make a bit of money or craft an uber piece of gear or two, but nothing past that. The crafter needs to spend feats on it after all, so it's a fair trade IMO.
 

 

You don't need feats to craft a fortune. Just skill points in one crafting skill. A single Duskwood bow nets several thousand GP. No enchantment necessary, and a Wizard has little else to spend them on anyway. Just building a default wizard means you have the skills.

 

IIRC the OC got around this by actually requiring you to Find Duskwood/Mitrhal etc, in your adventuring, not simply stocking stores with the ingredients.

 

IMO a setup like this, that just sells all the ingredients, is just another Monty Hall variation, that devalues whatever treasure you do find.

 

It also potentially undermines any story line of economic hardship, when shops brimming with magic items, money and crafting components to build a fortune.

 

The crafting system was bad enough in the OC, but the Monty Hall variation is even worse...

[Arkalezth]

Well, I was referring to those uber weapons, which you do need feats to craft, but feats or skills, the point is that the crafter may have sacrificed other things in order to have those abilities. However, the -main- point of my post was about limited resources.

 

I don't know how much "several thousands of GP" is exactly, but it may not be THAT much at level 10+. If you make and sell a hundred of those bows, then that's a lot, but if it's just one or two, it may not be very significant. I finished the module with well over 100k at least, and I don't even remember if I bothered selling all the loot from the last dungeon.

 

And needles to say that, in the end, if something feels like cheating, there's always the option of not exploiting it.

[Arkalezth]

Double post. If anyone can delete this, feel free.

[Shallina]

You can adjust the value of items, you can limit the crafting ressources, you can alter the recipe. there is many option, the crafting in NWN2 isn' t hard coded. It 's a script which fetch 2da. You only need to edit it.

[Tchos]

To be exact, it's called Monty Haul when you're talking about an RPG, as a pun on the name Monty Hall and the idea of a large treasure being a "haul".

 

I'm sorry you find the unrestricted crafting to turn it into a Monty Haul, despite Monty Haul campaigns giving players excessive treasure without the players having to voluntarily exploit systems beyond what they consider fair.  Nothing in the module suggests that sort of enforced free loot (I took care to choose treasure and XP rewards according to the 3.5 rules).  If it bothers you that much, and you insist on dismissing my self-restraint rationale, then perhaps you can use Shallina's information to edit the 2DA to your own preferences, as I would encourage.

 

I also wrote on the idea of shops in a wealthy port town still having stocks of valuable items despite no one being able to buy them due to blocked trade, somewhere in the development diary.

 

Ark: I don't think the actual value of the crafted items matters at all in this case, as long as it is at least 1 GP higher than the materials used to craft it, and as long as the materials are unlimited.

 

Also, for reference, the expected average amount of wealth (gold and gear combined) for a single character at level 11 (assuming level 11 at the end of my campaign) to have accumulated through adventuring under the 3.5 rules is 66000 gp.  Multiply that by 5 if you have a 5-member party.  Or, if you ended at level 12, it would be 88000 gp each.

[Dann-J]

In the module I'm currently working on there are no 'infinite' crafting materials for sale, and there are far fewer of the more exotic resources to be had. Any particular merchant may have lots of ordinary iron ingots or planks of wood, but you'll be lucky to find more than one adamantine ingot for sale by them. You'll have to shop around to find enough adamantine to craft even one item that requires more than one ingot - although you might just find the occasional ingot if you go exploring dangerous places.

 

I did place a few duskwood branches in a particularly dangerous section of forest, but if you can get past its denizens then you certainly deserve the reward. You'll still not have enough to craft more than a couple of items.

 

I've also added some even rarer exotic materials that can be crafted into a limited number of items, like dragon bone (for dragonbone bows) and ankheg mandibles (for weapons with curved edges; kama, scimitar, katana or scythe). The weapons craftable from those materials (if you have enough crafting skills to make them) come with pre-existing item properties.

[Snowdog65]

Well, I was referring to those uber weapons, which you do need feats to craft, but feats or skills, the point is that the crafter may have sacrificed other things in order to have those abilities. However, the -main- point of my post was about limited resources.

 

I don't know how much "several thousands of GP" is exactly, but it may not be THAT much at level 10+. If you make and sell a hundred of those bows, then that's a lot, but if it's just one or two, it may not be very significant. I finished the module with well over 100k at least, and I don't even remember if I bothered selling all the loot from the last dungeon.

 

And needles to say that, in the end, if something feels like cheating, there's always the option of not exploiting it.

 

You make over 10 000 GP crafting a single suite of Mithril Plate. 

 

Though after one side quest I found a single magic item, that I didn't have any use for, that sold for 100 000, so cash seems to be free flowing anyway. So there is no need to take advantage of the crafting bounty.

[Snowdog65]

In the module I'm currently working on there are no 'infinite' crafting materials for sale, and there are far fewer of the more exotic resources to be had. Any particular merchant may have lots of ordinary iron ingots or planks of wood, but you'll be lucky to find more than one adamantine ingot for sale by them. You'll have to shop around to find enough adamantine to craft even one item that requires more than one ingot - although you might just find the occasional ingot if you go exploring dangerous places.

 

I did place a few duskwood branches in a particularly dangerous section of forest, but if you can get past its denizens then you certainly deserve the reward. You'll still not have enough to craft more than a couple of items.

 

I've also added some even rarer exotic materials that can be crafted into a limited number of items, like dragon bone (for dragonbone bows) and ankheg mandibles (for weapons with curved edges; kama, scimitar, katana or scythe). The weapons craftable from those materials (if you have enough crafting skills to make them) come with pre-existing item properties.

 

If the author want to take the time, to include a few rare crafting materials as rewards, that seems quite reasonable. Actually feels like a reward.  Then the price reflects the in game rarity.

 

When they just dump in the crafting system with unlimited materials: Ugh! That just seems broken to me.

[Tchos]

Though after one side quest I found a single magic item, that I didn't have any use for, that sold for 100 000, so cash seems to be free flowing anyway. So there is no need to take advantage of the crafting bounty.

 

I daresay the only quest reward you could possibly be talking about is the Staff of the Woodlands.  Don't get used to that kind of reward.

[Dann-J]

I daresay the only quest reward you could possibly be talking about is the Staff of the Woodlands.  Don't get used to that kind of reward.

 

I found BSoCC to be a bit heavy on the expensive equipment drops. A certain group of sharkish enemies were dropping armour that I would have expected in a level 20 campaign, but seemed out of place in a level 10 campaign. Some of their weapons were also of near-epic quality.

 

One way to stop players from becoming millionaires is to restrict the upper buying price of merchants. Then players have the choice of making use of a found item that would cost hundreds of thousands of gold pieces to buy, or sell it for a fraction of that price. Or you can restrict the amount of gold merchants have to make it impossible for any of them to be able to buy the really expensive stuff, or to only be able to buy one such item unless the player decides to buy most of the rest of their merchandise.

[Tchos]

I found BSoCC to be a bit heavy on the expensive equipment drops. A certain group of sharkish enemies were dropping armour that I would have expected in a level 20 campaign, but seemed out of place in a level 10 campaign. Some of their weapons were also of near-epic quality.

 

One way to stop players from becoming millionaires is to restrict the upper buying price of merchants.

 

It's +4 leather armour with a -1 DEX penalty and 10% fire/acid resistance, dropped by scouts and trackers only, with a 5% drop rate for scouts and a 3% drop rate for trackers, so it shouldn't have been dropping very often.

 

The weapons are dropped by bodyguards, scouts, and trackers, 25% drop rate for the bodyguards (trident only), same drop rates as the armour for scouts and trackers. 

 

There are 3 bodyguards, 3 trackers, and 3 scouts in the game.  How many drops of this special equipment were you getting?  And was this in the released version, or the beta?  I adjusted the probabilities downward between the beta and the release, but I can adjust them further if necessary.  In my most recent test, of the special gear drops, I ended up with 3 +4 weapons and 1 piece of the +4 armour.  It is of course possible to get more or less depending on luck.

 

I admit the rarer +6 crossbows are very powerful, but they also have very low drop rates, and the creatures are tough to beat.

 

Restricting the upper buying price isn't too bad.  (My shops do have an upper buying price restriction, but it's pretty high.)

[Dann-J]

I was playing the final version of the campaign. I must have got lucky, because I had several suits of the +4 leather armour and a couple of +6 crossbows!

 

By the time I got to the end of the game, the gold reward for the main quest was only a tiny fraction of what selling the loot had given me.

[Tchos]

I've made some revisions based on your report, and posted them in the release thread. 

[Snowdog65]

I was playing the final version of the campaign. I must have got lucky, because I had several suits of the +4 leather armour and a couple of +6 crossbows!

 

By the time I got to the end of the game, the gold reward for the main quest was only a tiny fraction of what selling the loot had given me.

 

 

Randomness in action. I didn't get any +6 crossbows, and only one suit of the +4 armor.