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#126
Tim van Beek

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Heh, I don't really understand what this English literature professor example has to do with what I said, sorry.

And while I have never read Dan Brown (but assume it's terrible since you mock it ;)), we all have our guilty pleasures. Hell, I could never understand why someone would like Twilight, but plenty people do. So they just have fun with it.

Nothing really, but you got my point anyway: It is just an example of someone who could have a low opinion of you for liking certain things that he considers to be bad, like dime novels, or - in my example - would get such a reaction from his own social network. I don't think this way, neither do you, it would seem. This applies to the ME:3 ending as well. And this is one of the most postmodern statements that both ME:3 and this thread contain.  :lol:

 

 

Which is misrepresenting the motives of the Catalyst. We start forest fires to prevent worse forest fires you know.

 

 

Why can't the Catalyst create a new solution all by itself? 

 

It needs Shepard to enact synthesis due to him being both organic and synthetic at this point. It won't destroy itself and it already controls the Reapers. So, by itself it cannot use the Crucible.

 

Why doesn't' the Catalyst foil all plans for the next cycle?

 

That would have to be making massive changes to the cycle. Never mind the fact that he wants organic civilizations to use the relays and evolve on the Catalyst's terms. 

 

Organics are too resourceful because the Reapers are not infallible. EDI even suggests the Reapers aren't infallible 

Yes, that's the in-game explanation. The ME series was set up as a kind of fantasy or soft sci-fi, not hard sci-fi. It creates an interesting world based on fuzzy and somewhat shaky pseudo-scientific explanations, much like Star Trek. The point is, once this world is in place, you better not break your own rules, especially not in the last scene, and certainly not in order to achieve resolution. Based on its own standards of reasoning and lore, most of what is said and happens in the last scene (and some before) is singularily unconvincing. The Reapers cannot achieve better control of the next cycle because...they are not infallible? They are still vastly superiour, in every relevant aspect. Why does the Catalyst need civilizations to evolve to a point where they can use the relays? Why does it have to wait thousands of years after that? If its goal is to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics, it could start the harvest at a pre-space-faring state of all societies, no? Would be safer anyway.

 

 

And again, why do you have to accept these assumptions as truthful? Your Shepard can still think it's a load of bull. Nowhere does Shepard say "Ooh, you're right!" to the Catalyst, quite the contrary. When the Catalyst says that the Reapers were the only solution, Shepard says "You said that before. But how do the Reapers solve anything?" Implying that Shepard asks "why are the Reapers attacking us right now when you claim this is your exact problem? Shouldn't we be at peace if they are your solution?"

The Catalyst then goes on explaining its equation and the organic/synthetic problem, that the Reapers preserve them before they are forever lost to this conflict, and Shepard does actually reject it, saying that they're at war with the Reapers right now. And after the Catalyst says that Reapers and organics might be in conflict, but that Reapers are not interested in war, Shepard doesn't really buy it, "I find that hard to believe.". That shows me that Shepard isn't really convinced about this problem or the solution to it. And then finally when Shepard says that the Catalyst is taking away their future and hope, it sounds to me as if this is what you and me say. We can take care of ourselves. Why do we need the Reapers?

At least it could be interpreted that way I believe.

True, as I said before one can make a lot of sense of the Catalyst with the hypothesis: It is an AI that has to act within contraints put down in its programming, which itself cannot alter.

 

Here is the problem: Given the transition from vanilla ME:3 to ME:3 with the EC, obviously the intentions of the writers were to "clarify" that everything in the Catalyst scene is real, and that everything it says should be accepted at face value. It would have been really cool to see the ending as you do, that we find out that the Reapers operated on a hypothesis that has been proven wrong, and maybe was wrong from the start, but that with all their alleged intelligence they were unable to debunk it, by design. It's not what the writers had in mind, and it shows. If they had, they would have written it very differently, for sure. They way it was written, Shepard becomes an audience character who is only present to channel the questions of the player, while the Catalyst becomes a manifestation of the narrator created to make sense of...some stuff. Shepard is Watson and the Catalyst is Holmes. The reader is not supposed to question the credibility of Holmes after he has solved the crime, and the story is over.

 

Maybe I'll try another playthrough with proper indoctrination by you, anyway :lol: .


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#127
Monica21

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Yes, that's the in-game explanation. The ME series was set up as a kind of fantasy or soft sci-fi, not hard sci-fi. It creates an interesting world based on fuzzy and somewhat shaky pseudo-scientific explanations, much like Star Trek. The point is, once this world is in place, you better not break your own rules, especially not in the last scene, and certainly not in order to achieve resolution. Based on its own standards of reasoning and lore, most of what is said and happens in the last scene (and some before) is singularily unconvincing. The Reapers cannot achieve better control of the next cycle because...they are not infallible? They are still vastly superiour, in every relevant aspect. Why does the Catalyst need civilizations to evolve to a point where they can use the relays? Why does it have to wait another thousands of years after that? If its goal is to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics, it could start the harvest at a pre-space-faring state of all societies, no? Would be safer anyway.

 

You know, I was never interested in the Reaper's motivations. Was there a clamor on the forums to know the whys of all of it? Because I think defining the motivations is unnecessary and takes the plot in a direction it doesn't need to go. And okay, "Yo dawg, I heard synthetics were going to kill organics so I created synthetics to kill organics so that synthetics wouldn't kill organics." What? Thanks, Leviathan. Good job. Okay, that was simplified, but still.

 

I'm not sure how this would even work, but why am I talking to the Catalyst? I've talked to Sovereign, to a Reaper on Rannoch, and to Harbinger. Why can't I talk to Harbinger again? Why can't I tell him that his logic has failed for this cycle? If he's as advanced as we're led to think he is, he should be able to see this and stop the harvest himself. The Catalyst is entirely unnecessary, as is the Crucible for that matter.


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#128
Guest_irwig_*

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Do you mean the husks that Cerberus worked on in ME 1? I don´t remember where Cerberus worked on husk conversion in ME 2.

 

If I recall, they were studying how to implement it in ME2 and in ME3 they put their research to use (see Sanctuary mission). In ME1 they were doing something with Thorian creepers, not husks.

 

If he's as advanced as we're led to think he is, he should be able to see this and stop the harvest himself. The Catalyst is entirely unnecessary, as is the Crucible for that matter.

Harbinger doesn't want to stop the harvest. It wants the cycle to continue.

 

The Catalyst is necessary in order to make the Crucible function. That was the missing piece of the puzzle. As the Protheans said, without the Catalyst the Crucible doesn't work.

 

Technically, Shepard is the Catalyst. He is the one who activates it and makes the Crucible work. By shooting the tube, grabbing the power conduit, or jumping into the beam.

 

The little boy only explains how the options work and what effects on the galaxy each option has, but he still needs you to activate the Crucible.



#129
Dantriges

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Ah, huh, weird, Miranda mentions that they experimented on husks in ME 1. Perhaps a localization error.
 
What has Harbinger to do with it? He´s part of/subservient to the wishes of the catalyst. I am talking with TXgoldrush about his hypothesis that the Catalyst is helping Shepard of its own free will. The assumption is that the Catalyst is willing to stop the harvests after it realized that its solution won´t work anymore. And that´s why the little boy explains to you how the Crucible works instead of simply waiting until the Reapers are finished blowing it up.
 

Its already searching for a new solution...we learn that in Leviathan. thats why it set up the mass relays. The cycle isn't its ideal solution, synthesis is.
 
Another aspect that proves my point is that The Catalyst is more friendly to you at 2800 EMS, when synthesis is available, but more hostile to you if synthesis cannot be achieved, with lower EMS. For instance, it will say "you bring it on yourselves" and "you have choice, more than you deserve" rather than "you have choice, more than you know".
 
So The Catalyst has two reasons to help you at high EMS, but begrudgingly has to help you because its cycle still won't work anymore with low EMS but its ideal solution cannot be achieved.


Yes it is looking for a new solution. And there are only these two options
Crucible solution
No Crucible solution= continue harvest

Because of what?

Ok, so we know that the Catalyst calculated a long time about the organic-synthetic problem and he is utterly convinced that extinction by rebelling machines is inevitable unless the Reapers step in. It even tells you that. Our descendants will build machines, these will rebel and wipe them out. No "it´s possible" or "could be" but "will." In Low EMS there is only destroy. So his solution won´t work anymore, so it´s conclusion is to help the organics blow up the Reapers and this will result in the machine apocalypse, the very thing that it was built to prevent?

I have a problem with refuse because I can´t follow the logic "my solution is flawed but let´s do it anyways." But offering Shepard destroy willingly runs completely against its purpose and own convictions/conclusions.

Even harvesting the current cycle, then leaving the galaxy behind and let the next one take its course to extinction would be better than that, at least the Reapers saved what they preserved during the last billion years. Or harvest every sapient organic being. No machines and everyone is preserved in Reaper form. It´s not ideal and pretty close to extinction by synthetics in everyones point of view but the Reapers ^_^  but still better than giving up because an ant with a pistol thinks so. Advanced life will show up in a few million years probably anyways.
    

But Shepard is available at that moment.


That´s nice. Is there a reason that the Crucible has to be used now?
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#130
Monica21

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Harbinger doesn't want to stop the harvest. It wants the cycle to continue.

 

The Catalyst is necessary in order to make the Crucible function. That was the missing piece of the puzzle. As the Protheans said, without the Catalyst the Crucible doesn't work.

 

Technically, Shepard is the Catalyst. He is the one who activates it and makes the Crucible work. By shooting the tube, grabbing the power conduit, or jumping into the beam.

 

The little boy only explains how the options work and what effects on the galaxy each option has, but he still needs you to activate the Crucible.

 

If the Catalyst is the collective consciousness of the Reapers then Harbinger doesn't have a "want." He's just waiting for a command. The harvest is not dependent on him. The last five minutes of the game take the Reapers from being their own nation to all being controlled by a little kid.

 

I know why the Protheans, and Hackett for that matter, said that the Catalyst exist, I just think he exists for a stupid reason.


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#131
Vanilka

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If the Catalyst is the collective consciousness of the Reapers then Harbinger doesn't have a "want." He's just waiting for a command. The harvest is not dependent on him. The last five minutes of the game take the Reapers from being their own nation to all being controlled by a little kid.

 

I know why the Protheans, and Hackett for that matter, said that the Catalyst exist, I just think he exists for a stupid reason.

 

I thought the Catalyst made sense as long as it was just the Citadel itself. Using reaper tech against its own creators? I thought that made perfect sense. We still have a few hours to actually absorb this information. But when the Catalyst suddenly turned into an AI with its own agenda in the last few minutes... well... that seemed completely unnecessary to me... to say the least.



#132
themikefest

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Another aspect that proves my point is that The Catalyst is more friendly to you at 2800 EMS, when synthesis is available,

Do you have anything to support your comment?



#133
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The last five minutes of the game take the Reapers from being their own nation to all being controlled by a little kid.

 

It was hinted earlier that Reapers were servants, not the master by Vendetta. I half expected to run into something in control of the Reapers. So I'd say more like 3-5 hours, not five minutes.

 

Back in ME1 you didn't have the whole story of the Reapers. With ME3 and Leviathan DLC, now you do.



#134
Monica21

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It was hinted earlier that Reapers were servants, not the master by Vendetta. I half expected to run into something in control of the Reapers. So I'd say more like 3-5 hours, not five minutes.

 

Back in ME1 you didn't have the whole story of the Reapers. With ME3 and Leviathan DLC, now you do.

 

Hinted at by a guy who didn't finish the Crucible and understood less about the Reapers than you did. Sovereign told you they were nations. I'm not quite ready to buy the 50,000 year old VI who knew less than Shepard.



#135
Tim van Beek

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BTW, as Tim van Beek said before, this is getting really off topic. Maybe we should move it to a different thread or PMs? I'm not sure how to handle this best, to be honest.

I did? I do not recall...oh, no matter, speaking of which, maybe we should intersperse on topic comments from time to time, and e.g. give "Total Recall" a ME:3 ending. Let's see.

 

Quaid and Melina meet with Matthias.
 
Matthias actually looks identical to Quaid, who asks:
"Where am I?"
"At yourself."
"Who are you?"
"I am your lost identity."
"Can you help me regain my memory, and the knowledge of my true self?"
"Perhaps. I control the memories. They are my solution."
"Solution to what?"
"To chaos. Those who are not English will always rebel against those who are, it is inevitable. But I found a way to stop that from happening."
"By wiping out the true identities of people?"
"No. I harvest the identities of grown ups, leaving the younger ones alone."
"Isn't that like killing?"
"No, we have the Irish, Scottish and Australian identities ascend, making way for new ones. Quaid could only live because Hauser became something more."
"Something more? What exactly? Is this a kind of life? Does he have free will? Wouldn't Hauser want to retain his old form?"
"No, that is not possible. It is the accent, it is always the accent. Same with Scots and Australians."
"But if we are born Irish, only to be stored away, we don't have any hope! We could as well be English from the start, doing what we are told, wearing silly hats, working from 9 to five. I mean, this statement would probably be unnecessary b***it if you had good answers to my previous questions, which you chose to ignore..."
"You have hope. More than you deserve."
"Huh?"
"No one has ever been so introperspective. This has changed my parameters, I cannot go on. We need a different solution."
"Yes, we could tolerate...I mean democracy and independence...we have lived peacefully for hundreds of years...Ugh, forget that. You were saying?"
"You have to press this button. It will make everyone speak Cockney. I have tried to get everyone to speak Queen's English, but never succeeded. Somehow, I needed you, your mastery of different accents."
"If I make us all speak Cockney, we could as well **** the **** and then **** **** ****! And all my friends will **** **** with me and **** my **** and then some!"
Melina blushes and shapeshifts into Lori.
"You will also die when you press the button. And it will kill everyone in Wales."
"Thank god I don't have to see this through, but why Wales? I have friends there."
"I'm not a djinn, I cannot do magic! Wales has to go."
Quaid pushes the button, blue light, everybody speaks Cockney now. Lori wakes up at the Rekall facility.
"What a weird memory trip!" She looks at McClane . "Can we ever know for sure if something is real and not just made up? Can I ever know if I am the one thinking my thoughts and remembering my memories and not someone else?"
McClane pushes his hands into the pockets of his jacket and looks knowledgeably into the distance: "No."
Dramatic violine riff, cut to credits.

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#136
Linkenski

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The Catalyst Starchild is also just a means to communicate, and it is implied (heavily) that Reapers are just following a simplistic directive which means they don't really think about their actions. (and it means Sovereign lied if we accept the ending as it is)

 

They were basically reduced to cliche kind of robots where they have a clear program that says "kill that" and a more elaborate reason "We must kill x to prevent y" but they lack organic thought, so they can't see the nuances, like ethics, guilt, responsibility in the choices they make.

 

So When Catalyst gives you the option to destroy the Reapers it's not really aware in the traditional sense that it contradicts its motivation. It gives you these 3 options because "The Crucible changed me" so it's all just part of its pre-programmed directive.

 

And all arguments that involve what the Catalyst says, how he says it, what he does, what's his goal? etc. -- All of these arguments are sort of irrelevant to me, when the ending, in a much bigger picture is so flawed just by its concept. It breaks coherence even just by setting ME3 up in a 3-act structure and sumarize what happens in act 1, 2 and 3 on thematic level.

 

Yeah yeah, sure, you can like it, but personally when things are that incoherent on such a high level where it's just obvious, I don't care for the minutial justifications of why x happens the way it does or how the Catalyst may or may not be wrong in his assertion.

 

The assertion itself, the Catalyst itself, everything within those last 10 minutes is just one big retcon of central conflict, themes and message, tone, genre, you-name-it! Casey Hudson thought Mass Effect was at large about the metabolic struggle between organics and synthetics... well, apparently he didn't replay Mass Effect 1, 2 or what they had of 3 before he decided to have THIS as the ending.


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#137
fraggle

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Maybe I'll try another playthrough with proper indoctrination by you, anyway :lol: .

 

ASSUMING CONTROL :P



#138
von uber

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The catalyst had the effect of diminishing the Reapers. How can you playthrough ME1 now and have that great moment of meeting Sovereign whilst knowing about the existence of the catalyst?

 

Anyway, I was sitting with the gremlin in cafe Nero with a Latte and a Chocolate Muffin, and whilst she was staring at every one who came in I had the following thought:

 

When the topic of the crucible comes up, instead of basically saying 'We have no idea' Hackett says they think it is a weapon that can focus energy on a Reaper - but they need a means of amplifying it all at once.

They then realise the importance of the Citadel.

This adds extra importance to the Cerberus coup (TIM trying to seize control of the means of distribution).

The reapers can still take the Citadel - however you can then use Ilos (harking back to ME1) to land on the Citadel and re-take control, dock the crucible and bang. Job done.

Motivation of the Reapers can be kept mysterious or hinted at, happy endings / death of Shep / squad can be tied into EMS if you really have to.

 

Whilst not the most original, this would remove quite a few plot holes - especially everything that revolves around the catalyst and the citadel.


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#139
Tim van Beek

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Increasing the on-topic-comment-percentage with this link to a ME:3 ending for "The Witcher 3", enjoy: http://forums.cdproj...-Effect-3-Style

 

 

ASSUMING CONTROL :P

Will I know that this hurts me?  :lol:


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#140
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Hinted at by a guy who didn't finish the Crucible and understood less about the Reapers than you did. Sovereign told you they were nations. I'm not quite ready to buy the 50,000 year old VI who knew less than Shepard.

 

Sovereign may have been lying about that.



#141
Monica21

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Sovereign may have been lying about that.

 

Yeah, "may" have. Or he wasn't programmed to know anything different. The Prothean VI is also just guessing.



#142
angol fear

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Or maybe both sovereign and the catalyst tell the truth.

#143
ImaginaryMatter

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Increasing the on-topic-comment-percentage with this link to a ME:3 ending for "The Witcher 3", enjoy: http://forums.cdproj...-Effect-3-Style

 

I sure hope there's one of these for Spec Ops: The Line. If not I might have to give it a shot (for those who have played both games).

 



 

...

 

Whilst not the most original, this would remove quite a few plot holes - especially everything that revolves around the catalyst and the citadel.

 

Something like that would probably be the most practical fix. I think the biggest problem with the device -- as the game currently is -- is that the 'take back Earth' campaign is largely what drives the plot in both the story and the game's mechanics. The Crucible is largely something that gets built off screen (I think this image sums it up pretty well -- the Crucible is a subsection of the entire military point gathering system. I think to fix it you would have to integrate it's construction into the actual mechanics, instead of something that gets a casual mention in between bouts of shooting Reapers.



#144
Batarian Master Race

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I sure hope there's one of these for Spec Ops: The Line. If not I might have to give it a shot (for those who have played both games).

 

 

The sandstorm is my solution, Walker!


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#145
txgoldrush

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Hinted at by a guy who didn't finish the Crucible and understood less about the Reapers than you did. Sovereign told you they were nations. I'm not quite ready to buy the 50,000 year old VI who knew less than Shepard.

But Sovereign is one of the Reapers Vendetta is talking about....and really if Sovereign was correct, than why does ever Reaper agree with the cycle?

 

ME3 answers this question. Face it, characters in ME3 have more lore authority than ME1.

 

 

Do you have anything to support your comment?

 

High EMS Catalyst conversation

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=va-eJbFO8AU

 

Low EMS for synthesis to no longer be available. More hostile, but player didn't dissent the options, it is even more hostile if he did.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=0qUbsTLH7MQ

 

Some extra dialogue, if you refuse both destroy and control with low EMS.

 

Shepard: Not if I refuse to do it.

Catalyst: True, though you are bound to these decisions just as I am.

Shepard: I am not bound by anything. Not by you or these choices.

Catalyst: If you do not act, you will be forced to accept our dominion. The harvest will proceed.

 

 

 

Or maybe both sovereign and the catalyst tell the truth.

This could be the case, or that Sovereign never knew he was being controlled. Even in ME3, the Reapers didn't seem to know the Catalyst's existence, but the Catalyst doesn't control them directly.



#146
Tim van Beek

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When the topic of the crucible comes up, instead of basically saying 'We have no idea' Hackett says they think it is a weapon that can focus energy on a Reaper - but they need a means of amplifying it all at once.

They then realise the importance of the Citadel.

This adds extra importance to the Cerberus coup (TIM trying to seize control of the means of distribution).

The reapers can still take the Citadel - however you can then use Ilos (harking back to ME1) to land on the Citadel and re-take control, dock the crucible and bang. Job done.

Motivation of the Reapers can be kept mysterious or hinted at, happy endings / death of Shep / squad can be tied into EMS if you really have to.

 

Whilst not the most original, this would remove quite a few plot holes - especially everything that revolves around the catalyst and the citadel.

Good ideas! Some thoughts:

 

I stlll like that the alliance finds out about the citadel by finding another Prothean VI, no need to change that. Unless someone has a problem with the Asari, who hold back that information even while facing annihilation and knowing that the alliance has a very concrete plan based on a Prothean concept. Then, maybe, the VI should not be on Thessia.

 

Going back to Ilos to do the exact same thing as in ME:1 is an anti-climax. But it makes a lot more sense than the beam run. As an executive producer I'd still opt for the dramatic, but illogical  ;) .

 

The Cerberus coup was not about the citadel being the Catalyst, AFAIK TIM only found out about this via Vendetta, which he aquired after the coup on Thessia. Also, if he wanted to aquire the Catalyst, he would have taken the council hostage instead of sending an assasin after them, And he would need a means to move it/hide it/defend it. Thus, the coup is a dangling thread, we never find out why it happened. Changing it the way you propose makes a lot more sense.



#147
fraggle

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Thus, the coup is a dangling thread, we never find out why it happened.

 

We do :) I also only found out recently that the coup was Udina's attempt to overthrow the council in order to send more fleets to help Earth. There was a codex entry on it.

 

I also found out that originally the Citadel coup was planned after Thessia, and it would have been a perfect motive. But, like so many other things they didn't have the time to make it happen in that order. So we got Udina being desperate about Earth. Which works for me. Still not as great as what could've been, but it makes sense at least.


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#148
Tim van Beek

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We do :) I also only found out recently that the coup was Udina's attempt to overthrow the council in order to send more fleets to help Earth. There was a codex entry on it.

 

I also found out that originally the Citadel coup was planned after Thessia, and it would have been a perfect motive. But, like so many other things they didn't have the time to make it happen in that order. So we got Udina being desperate about Earth. Which works for me. Still not as great as what could've been, but it makes sense at least.

Oh, that's interesting, thanks! I did not know that the Codex can contain information that Shepard or anyone on the Normandy or in the alliance has no way of knowing about, or is that explained, too?  :) (Maybe they found Udina's diary or some correspondence with TIM, with weak encryption.)

How did you find out that the coup was planned to take place after the Thessia mission? I bet that one was not in the codex?  :lol:

 

While that is an explanation, I find it hard to believe that Udina or TIM could have believed that a coup is a smart move and could help Earth in any way, though.



#149
fraggle

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Oh, that's interesting, thanks! I did not know that the Codex can contain information that Shepard or anyone on the Normandy or in the alliance has no way of knowing about, or is that explained, too?  :) (Maybe they found Udina's diary or some correspondence with TIM, with weak encryption.)

How did you find out that the coup was planned to take place after the Thessia mission? I bet that one was not in the codex?  :lol:

 

While that is an explanation, I find it hard to believe that Udina or TIM could have believed that a coup is a smart move and could help Earth in any way, though.

 

It's a secondary codex entry in the The Reaper War section. I don't remember though when we get it.

My guess is after talking to Bailey since he mentioned they have some evidence on Udina from his office and that he'll send a summary.

The asari Councilor later only mentions that they still don't know how Udina managed to stage the coup, but his intentions were known at this point it seems.

 

Haha, no, but it was in an article I've read. It was from the ME Final Hours, you can read it here if interested :)

https://www.reddit.c...3s_development/

 

Well, this whole desperate times, desperate measures is something I can buy, so if Udina can get a hold of the whole Citadel fleet, I can see why he would try to use them for Earth.


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#150
Tim van Beek

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It's a secondary codex entry in the The Reaper War section. I don't remember though when we get it.

My guess is after talking to Bailey since he mentioned they have some evidence on Udina from his office and that he'll send a summary.

The asari Councilor later only mentions that they still don't know how Udina managed to stage the coup, but his intentions were known at this point it seems.

 

Haha, no, but it was in an article I've read. It was from the ME Final Hours, you can read it here if interested :)

https://www.reddit.c...3s_development/

 

Well, this whole desperate times, desperate measures is something I can buy, so if Udina can get a hold of the whole Citadel fleet, I can see why he would try to use them for Earth.

Thanks, I've found the codex enty. I think as a writer one has to be very careful to explain every strange, irrational behaviour by "maybe indoctrination"? That's just opting out of storytelling. 

 

One big problem for writers and producers has to be all these different versions of the story. If you keep discussing these over and over, you must get confused about what you dismissed, what you kept and if what you kept makes sense.