180 réponses à ce sujet

[fraggle]

Thanks, I've found the codex enty. I think as a writer one has to be very careful to explain every strange, irrational behaviour by "maybe indoctrination"? That's just opting out of storytelling. 

 

One big problem for writers and producers has to be all these different versions of the story. If you keep discussing these over and over, you must get confused about what you dismissed, what you kept and if what you kept makes sense. 

 

I used to think that Udina was likely indoctrinated. But now I'm not so sure anymore. According to the codex he was the one contacting Cerberus. They give an explanation in there why the Reapers would benefit from Udina's actions, but it also states that it's likely he acted out of his own accord. So I'm tending towards non-indoctrinated.

 

I think so, too. I've read a few interviews with Mac and other devs which touched on this subject. How it's tough to keep up the narrative or plans as many things are constantly changing. The fact that even if they wanted to plan a Trilogy through and through from the beginning, it's not possible, because too many things change on the way. So they kinda have to make it up as they go, and they only can come up with vague ideas and see if and how they can implement them. I don't envy the writers, I really don't. It must be tough. Maybe that's why I'm quite forgiving with a lot of things I know they still poured their heart and passion into it, even though it might be flawed.

[themikefest]

High EMS Catalyst conversation

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=va-eJbFO8AU

 

Low EMS for synthesis to no longer be available. More hostile, but player didn't dissent the options, it is even more hostile if he did.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=0qUbsTLH7MQ

 

Some extra dialogue, if you refuse both destroy and control with low EMS.

How do you know it won't say 'wake up' at 2700 or 2600 ems? Have you tried that?

[themikefest]

We do I also only found out recently that the coup was Udina's attempt to overthrow the council in order to send more fleets to help Earth. There was a codex entry on it.

 

I also found out that originally the Citadel coup was planned after Thessia, and it would have been a perfect motive. But, like so many other things they didn't have the time to make it happen in that order. So we got Udina being desperate about Earth. Which works for me. Still not as great as what could've been, but it makes sense at least.

That's why I've posted a number of times that I would've switched the Thessia and coup missions. It would make sense Cerberus trying to take the Citadel. Maybe Bioware can remake ME3. Ha. If they do that, I would instead have them remake the whole trilogy

[Linkenski]

The catalyst had the effect of diminishing the Reapers. How can you playthrough ME1 now and have that great moment of meeting Sovereign whilst knowing about the existence of the catalyst?

Exactly how I feel too. I can still love and enjoy ME1, hell i can still enjoy the encounter with Sovereign, but only as long as I don't think of ME3, which I inveitably do because the plot-point with Sovereign was one that initially evoked mystery and awe and "what are these?". We have an answer and it makes everything look much worse than the initial impression.

 

In many ways I find ME3 kind of noncanon, because it feels too far-removed from the rest with its shift in tone, the bad character-redesigns (Udina, Bailey, Kirrahe etc.) lack of Jack Wall, forced artsy moments like the Child, Dreams, Catalyst etc. It's a ****** train-wreck, let's be honest here.

[Linkenski]

I think so, too. I've read a few interviews with Mac and other devs which touched on this subject. How it's tough to keep up the narrative or plans as many things are constantly changing. 

Easy fix: Play ME1 and ME2 again, even if you're sick of the words "Mass Effect" after working every day for several hours on its next installment. At multiple times it really seemed like the writers weren't aware of what went down in ME1 specifically. They kept making incorrect statements about "Shepard facing down Sovereign" when in reality, he just faced a fully-control-assumed Saren which broke Sovereign's shields upon defeat. They only care about the Cipher and not the beacon Shepard interacted with himself. 

 

Look I get it. Mass Effect is big, like, REALLY big and it's actually hard to find any good video-game story with sequels where there aren't some sorts of canons involved, but as a player it's just so frustrating, especially when there is the whole "save import" mechanic that Bioware seemed to have a very faded memory about how ME1 even played out.

 

Mac had to use Wikis to keep track of the lore because he was too lazy to use their own Lore Bible, which they do have. No instead, we're going with the "it's good enough" approach and just break one rule after the other to make it feel cooler or more dramatic.

 

I am not discarding the fact that some of these things already began in ME2 though, but personally I find ME3 to be the worst one in regards to retcons and shitting on the lore.

[MrFob]

Wow, never heard about the idea that the Cerberus Coup should have taken place after thessia. It would have made much more sense this way.

Because let's face it, Udina's motives (assuming he was not indoctrinated) have little basis at the time, the coup takes place in game. We just recruited the Turians for our cause and potentially the Salarians as well. It looks like the Asari will join eventually and the Crucible is not very far along yet either, so there is time for Shepard to work on it. On the other hand, if he is indoctrinated, this poses some questions as to the secrecy of the Crucible project.

 

After Thessia however, Udina has a reason be pi$$ed, at least at the Asari. In fact, I think there would have been some players from discussion here at the forums who might have wanted to join him. I'd probably place the coup after Sanctuary. So Shepard could come in in the middle of the coup, fights Cerberus, meets Udina and maybe even TIM and then, in the middle of the turmoil, the reapers show up. Because of the Chaos, no one can close the arms in time and they pure in. Shepard and the Normandy can barely escape as the station starts moving. Maybe, as a token victory, we could meet up with Bailey save the council or something because after Thessia, this would be yet another devastating defeat for Shep and crew overall..

If it were to happen this way, we actualyy see how the reapers take the Citadel instead of Vendetta telling us (never tell when you can show). Not sure what it would do to the pacing of the game though. There must be a reason why they changed it. On first glance, I can see how this could really have worked out though.

[Iakus]

That's why I've posted a number of times that I would've switched the Thessia and coup missions. It would make sense Cerberus trying to take the Citadel. Maybe Bioware can remake ME3. Ha. If they do that, I would instead have them remake the whole trilogy

That would mean admitting to mistakes in ME3.  Can't have that, now...

[Iakus]

Or maybe both sovereign and the catalyst tell the truth.

"We are each a nation.  Independent.  Free of all weakness"

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

 

[themikefest]

Wow, never heard about the idea that the Cerberus Coup should have taken place after thessia. It would have made much more sense this way.

Because let's face it, Udina's motives (assuming he was not indoctrinated) have little basis at the time, the coup takes place in game. We just recruited the Turians for our cause and potentially the Salarians as well. It looks like the Asari will join eventually and the Crucible is not very far along yet either, so there is time for Shepard to work on it. On the other hand, if he is indoctrinated, this poses some questions as to the secrecy of the Crucible project.

 

After Thessia however, Udina has a reason be pi$$ed, at least at the Asari. In fact, I think there would have been some players from discussion here at the forums who might have wanted to join him. I'd probably place the coup after Sanctuary. So Shepard could come in in the middle of the coup, fights Cerberus, meets Udina and maybe even TIM and then, in the middle of the turmoil, the reapers show up. Because of the Chaos, no one can close the arms in time and they pure in. Shepard and the Normandy can barely escape as the station starts moving. Maybe, as a token victory, we could meet up with Bailey save the council or something because after Thessia, this would be yet another devastating defeat for Shep and crew overall..

If it were to happen this way, we actualyy see how the reapers take the Citadel instead of Vendetta telling us (never tell when you can show). Not sure what it would do to the pacing of the game though. There must be a reason why they changed it. On first glance, I can see how this could really have worked out though.

Here's a link, thanks to fraggleblabla, about Thessia and Citadel coup

 

 

That would mean admitting to mistakes in ME3.  Can't have that, now...

There is no mistake. There is only the harvest.

 

I'm sure they know there were mistakes. The biggest enemy they faced was time. Had 6 or even 12 more months been given, the game most likely be different. Or it could be exactly the same. Unfortunately that time has come and gone

[MrFob]

Here's a link, thanks to fraggleblabla, about Thessia and Citadel coup

Ha, yea, that makes perfect sense.

 

Also: "the decision was made to move the Citadel Coup to earlier in the game (the reasoning being that Cerberus was felt to not be involved enough throughout the mid-section, and moving the Citadel Coup to between Tuchanka and Rannoch would 'remind' players about the Cerberus plot arc)."

 

I just hate it when stories are messed with because writers underestimate the intelligence of their audience.

[von uber]

Or maybe both sovereign and the catalyst tell the truth.

Or maybe they completely ignored what they had written in me1. After all, me3 was the best place to start.

[txgoldrush]

How do you know it won't say 'wake up' at 2700 or 2600 ems? Have you tried that?

Guy in the video had middle EMS, where his version of destroy wasn't vaporization

 

Exactly how I feel too. I can still love and enjoy ME1, hell i can still enjoy the encounter with Sovereign, but only as long as I don't think of ME3, which I inveitably do because the plot-point with Sovereign was one that initially evoked mystery and awe and "what are these?". We have an answer and it makes everything look much worse than the initial impression.

 

In many ways I find ME3 kind of noncanon, because it feels too far-removed from the rest with its shift in tone, the bad character-redesigns (Udina, Bailey, Kirrahe etc.) lack of Jack Wall, forced artsy moments like the Child, Dreams, Catalyst etc. It's a ****** train-wreck, let's be honest here.

Its canon.

 

You are missing the point. the Reapers aren't supposed to be mysterious, they are supposed to tie in with the themes of the series, and an organic project gone wrong nails it. The origin of the Reapers fits right in to the series themes.

 

Another point is that in the end...the Reapers didn't understand organics, not the other way around.

 

 

Or maybe they completely ignored what they had written in me1. After all, me3 was the best place to start.

Or maybe they thought that characters aren't end all authorities on lore and are free to be contradicted and wrong. Vigil was wrong a soon as ME2.

 

Sovereign is an unknowing puppet of the Catalyst, that doesn't contradict "lore".

 

You want something that ignores lore...see Burial At Sea for Bioshock Infinite.

 

 

Here's a link, thanks to fraggleblabla, about Thessia and Citadel coup

 

 

There is no mistake. There is only the harvest.

 

I'm sure they know there were mistakes. The biggest enemy they faced was time. Had 6 or even 12 more months been given, the game most likely be different. Or it could be exactly the same. Unfortunately that time has come and gone

Mass Effect 2 was far worse rushed. It seems whole plots and missions are missing. Where did Mordin get the bug exactly?

 

I find it funny, people want to complain about ME3 problems but completely ignore the problems with ME2.

[txgoldrush]

We do I also only found out recently that the coup was Udina's attempt to overthrow the council in order to send more fleets to help Earth. There was a codex entry on it.

 

I also found out that originally the Citadel coup was planned after Thessia, and it would have been a perfect motive. But, like so many other things they didn't have the time to make it happen in that order. So we got Udina being desperate about Earth. Which works for me. Still not as great as what could've been, but it makes sense at least.

There was hints that he may try something when you first meet him, nevermind his hatred for the other council members.

 

Another plot point about the coup that people miss is how Kai Leng escapes...through the keepers tunnels. This can easily explain how TIM got in later in the game. You are in the keeper tunnels in the end.

[themikefest]

Guy in the video had middle EMS, where his version of destroy wasn't vaporization

What was his ems?

 

It still doesn't answer the question. How do you know the catalyst only says 'wake up ' with ems at 2800 or higher?

[themikefest]

Mass Effect 2 was far worse rushed. It seems whole plots and missions are missing.

Was it? I wouldn't know about the game being rushed.
 

Where did Mordin get the bug exactly?

What bug are you talking about? Are you talking about the bugs he found in the lab?
 

I find it funny, people want to complain about ME3 problems but completely ignore the problems with ME2.

I find it funny that you bring up ME2 when this is the section for ME3. If you have problems with ME2, why not make a thread in the ME2 section?

[txgoldrush]

Was it? I wouldn't know about the game being rushed.
 

What bug are you talking about? Are you talking about the bugs he found in the lab?
 

I find it funny that you bring up ME2 when this is the section for ME3. If you have problems with ME2, why not make a thread in the ME2 section?

Because the plot itself has so many holes. Take for instance, Horizon. How does the Virmire Survivor get stung yards away from a colonist that got taken, and not be taken him or herself? And then suddenly they got better. The mission to nowhere so the Collectors can board the Normandy, etc. ME2 is plot hole champion of the series.

 

The collector swarm bug Mordin suddenly has. Its a plot hole at worst and an unaddressed issue at best.

 

But ME3 is bashed for things ME2 is guilty on and ignored.

[txgoldrush]

What was his ems?

 

It still doesn't answer the question. How do you know the catalyst only says 'wake up ' with ems at 2800 or higher?

He didn't say, however, he did have the medium destroy which suggests he is under 2800.

 

Ok, it is 2800, that's the difference between "Wake Up" and "Why are you here"..

[themikefest]

Because the plot itself has so many holes. Take for instance, Horizon. How does the Virmire Survivor get stung yards away from a colonist that got taken, and not be taken him or herself? And then suddenly they got better. The mission to nowhere so the Collectors can board the Normandy, etc. ME2 is plot hole champion of the series.

There could be a number of reasons why Ashley/Kaidan were ignored by the collectors. The collectors were busy collecting other bodies and were about to get the VS when Shepard showed up. As for them getting better, its possible the other colonists we saw got better while Shepard was fighting the giant bug before the collector ship left

Regards to having every squadmate leave on the shuttle. I don't have an explanation for that. I would like to hear one from Bioware
 

The collector swarm bug Mordin suddenly has. Its a plot hole at worst and an unaddressed issue at best.

Didn't Shepard say there's samples for Mordin to study? Those samples most likely were gathered on Freedom's Progress.
 

But ME3 is bashed for things ME2 is guilty on and ignored.

So make a thread about that.
 

He didn't say, however, he did have the medium destroy which suggests he is under 2800. High destroy is 3100.

So he could've had any number below 2800 and above 1750.

It still doesn't answer the question. How do you know the catalsyt won't say 'wake up' if ems is at 2700 or even 2600?

[txgoldrush]

There could be a number of reasons why Ashley/Kaidan were ignored by the collectors. The collectors were busy collecting other bodies and were about to get the VS when Shepard showed up. As for them getting better, its possible the other colonists we saw got better while Shepard was fighting the giant bug before the collector ship left

Regards to having every squadmate leave on the shuttle. I don't have an explanation for that. I would like to hear one from Bioware
 

Didn't Shepard say there's samples for Mordin to study? Those samples most likely were gathered on Freedom's Progress.
 

So make a thread about that.
 

So he could've had any number below 2800 and above 1750.

It still doesn't answer the question. How do you know the catalsyt won't say 'wake up' if ems is at 2700 or even 2600?

Then its a plot hole at worst and an unaddressed issue at best. Face it, the entire sequence is off. It goes to show that there may have been changes to the mission.

 

No he didn't. Mordin says something about needing to get samples from Shepard. I classify this as an "unaddressed issue" instead of "plot hole" because we recruited Mordin on the basis that he can counteract the seeker swarm. It seems like a quest was cut out here.

 

It is indeed 2800 EMS that makes the Catalyst friendlier. Had to use gibbed because its hard to find a video with that EMS range.

[themikefest]

Then its a plot hole at worst and an unaddressed issue at best. Face it, the entire sequence is off. It goes to show that there may have been changes to the mission.

Make a thread about that
 

No he didn't. Mordin says something about needing to get samples from Shepard. I classify this as an "unaddressed issue" instead of "plot hole" because we recruited Mordin on the basis that he can counteract the seeker swarm. It seems like a quest was cut out here.

Incorrect

Shepard does say we collected samples from a colony

https://youtu.be/Y6T9_usGw60?t=20m20s
 

It is indeed 2800 EMS that makes the Catalyst friendlier. Had to use gibbed because its hard to find a video with that EMS range.

Do you have anything that proves the catalyst only says 'wake up' at 2800 ems or higher?

[txgoldrush]

Make a thread about that
 

Incorrect

Shepard does say we collected samples from a colony

https://youtu.be/Y6T9_usGw60?t=20m20s
 

Do you have anything that proves the catalyst only says 'wake up' at 2800 ems or higher?

Unaddressed issue still stands, it says nothing about a live seeker swarm. Face it, it is a plot problem in ME2. Nevermind it suddenly appearing in the cage for a cutscene when no there before.

 

Do you have evidence proving otherwise? If you want to find out, use gibbed like I have.

[themikefest]

Unaddressed issue still stands, it says nothing about a live seeker swarm. Face it, it is a plot problem in ME2. Nevermind it suddenly appearing in the cage for a cutscene when no there before.

Its not an issue. Shepard says samples. Did he/she have to specify it was a seeker swarm.
 

Do you have evidence proving otherwise? If you want to find out, use gibbed like I have.

Unfortunately I can't prove you're wrong since I play on the ps3 just as you can't prove the catalyst only says 'wake up' if ems is at 2800 or higher

[txgoldrush]

Its not an issue. Shepard says samples. Did he/she have to specify it was a seeker swarm.
 

Unfortunately I can't prove you're wrong since I play on the ps3 just as you can't prove the catalyst only says 'wake up' if ems is at 2800 or higher

So where in the plot does he get the samples? Unaddressed issue still stands. Hey, it could even be deus ex machina.

 

Simply put, ME2's plot is very clunky, contrived, and uneven at best.

 

Too bad for you. Get the PC version then.

[themikefest]

So where in the plot does he get the samples? Unaddressed issue still stands. Hey, it could even be deus ex machina.
 
Simply put, ME2's plot is very clunky, contrived, and uneven at best.

Make a thread about these issues in the ME2 section
 

Too bad for you. Get the PC version then.

So you're saying the pc version is different? Or are you concerned that you might be wrong about the ems? Either way I will load up one of my ME3 playthroughs to find out how low ems can be for the catalyst not to say 'wake up'

[txgoldrush]

Make a thread about these issues in the ME2 section
 

So you're saying the pc version is different? Or are you concerned that you might be wrong about the ems? Either way I will load up one of my ME3 playthroughs to find out how low ems can be for the catalyst not to say 'wake up'

The PC version allows you to edit your saves with a tool. You can edit your EMS.