116 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Artifice]

In what way? Not entirely sure what you mean by that?

 

There are very few RP characters that I've played and wouldn't consider to be at least a little on the stoic side. The silent protagonists especially, for obvious reasons. The Dragonborn, The Warden, The Lone Wanderer. Those were among my earliest rp experiences, and they're all blank slates. Shepard was the first voiced protagonist I played, and I'd call them fairly stoic as well. 

 

The list of protagonists that I can think of who aren't stoic is significantly shorter. To me, your request just sounds like asking for the same old thing over again. I didn't really love playing as the Inquisitor all that much, but I do give Bioware credit for trying to tackle such a thorough dialogue system. There were always stoic choices available, and I used them now and I then, but I had fun trying to give the protagonist their own voice and energy. 

[Queen Skadi]

Not sure we are on the same page when it comes to the definition of stoic, it is slightly unfair to call the silent protagonists stoic as how the character sounds and the delivery of the lines is largely based on the imagination of the player, and in the case of the Warden there are more than a few examples of how the Warden's face twists in an over exaggerated display of emotion during cutscenes.

 

As for Shepard being stoic.... well......

 

Lets just say it is not quite the most accurate of statements

 

It isn't so much about making every character stoic but not alienating the player by having the character show large amounts emotion over events or things that mean nothing to the player. You say stoic characters are far overused but I say it is hard to find an RPG that allows you to be stoic even if you want to be, even among silent protagonists you have more than enough dialogue options that imply your character has a gaudy sense of humour, it is also especially grating when your character drops to the floor and starts sobbing uncontrollably over some character that at best means nothing to you and at worst you found to be so annoying you are glad to be rid of them. Perhaps displaying large amounts of emotion is great if you are trying to create oscar bait where the person that sobbs the loudest gets the award however when creating a protagonist in a video game it just doesn't work.

 

It has nothing to do with being "stuck in the past and wanting the same thing over and over again" it is about recognizing what works and recognizing the differences between video games and movies.

[Han Shot First]

 

It has nothing to do with being "stuck in the past and wanting the same thing over and over again" it is about recognizing what works and recognizing the differences between video games and movies.

 

Voiced protagonists may not work for you in video games, but they do for many others. In fact I'd bet that the majority of fans of Bioware's games would rather have voiced protagonist than silent. That isn't to say that you can't prefer a silent protagonist of course.

[Queen Skadi]

Han this would go a lot easier if you just bothered to just read the thread before replying as I would not have to repeat myself as much

 

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT SILENT PROTAGONISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

I would use a bigger font but unfortunately 24 is as big as it goes.

 

Of course we can talk about people preferring emotive protagonists which I suppose is fine if you prefer your games to be poor imitations of Hollywood blockbusters but the way I see it if video games keep trying to emulate movies then they will never be truly respected as an artform in their own right, which is a shame because Video games have the potential to be far more powerful than any movie or TV show could ever hope to be.

[Vapaa]

I suppose there is nothing wrong with creating a tense emotional experience provided you can pull it off without sacrificing the spirit of the series on order to do so, however going by their previous work Bethesda simply don't have the writing chops to pull off a "tense emotional experience" and giving the protagonist emotions,

Totally agree, you should never try to extend his capabilities beyond what you already do, you should always do the same thing you're good at over and over again.

After all that is the true method of artistic creation.

[Queen Skadi]

Totally agree, you should never try to extend his capabilities beyond what you already do, you should always do the same thing you're good at over and over again.

After all that is the true method of artistic creation.

 

Oh really? I thought the true method of artistic creation was to just copy what everyone else is doing because if everyone else is doing it it must be good right?

 

I can respect if Bethesda wants to try something new and I would even applaud them for doing so (though Bethesda attempting "tense and emotional" reeks of them just following the AAA fads), but at the same time if you were to hear that the cripple kid is going to try out of the major league rugby team you can't tell me there isnt a small part of you dreading the results.

[TheOgre]

Voiced protagonists may not work for you in video games, but they do for many others. In fact I'd bet that the majority of fans of Bioware's games would rather have voiced protagonist than silent. That isn't to say that you can't prefer a silent protagonist of course.

my problem with voiced protagonists stems from their facial expressions often being poorly animated and not matching them. Or they take on auto dialogue that can sometimes make my character feel like they are talking way out of character. I.e, threatening someone only to return to happy smiles in the next auto dialogue. 

 

But alas, your right, people prefer the voiced protagonists where I don't see them as a bonus.

[Han Shot First]

Han this would go a lot easier if you just bothered to just read the thread before replying as I would not have to repeat myself as much

 

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT SILENT PROTAGONISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

I would use a bigger font but unfortunately 24 is as big as it goes.

 

Of course we can talk about people preferring emotive protagonists which I suppose is fine if you prefer your games to be poor imitations of Hollywood blockbusters but the way I see it if video games keep trying to emulate movies then they will never be truly respected as an artform in their own right, which is a shame because Video games have the potential to be far more powerful than any movie or TV show could ever hope to be.

 

Your posts don't make much sense unless you're referring to silent protagonists. How do you create a voice protagonist that isn't also emotive? Is this voiced protagonist a tranquil? 

 

Human speech is typically loaded with emotion. Many words or sayings can have multiple meanings, and is the emotion reflected in these words through the inflection of the speaker that enables the listener to decipher the intended meaning. 

[Queen Skadi]

Your posts don't make much sense unless you're referring to silent protagonists. How do you create a voice protagonist that isn't also emotive?

 

Quite easily, just don't have him grin like a lunatic when he removes a Quarian's visor or dispay maudlin emotion when a character dies, it is not about banishing emotion completely but toning it down to the point where a player wont feel alienated if they don't feel an emotion the developers expect them to have at the time.

[Vapaa]

Oh really? I thought the true method of artistic creation was to just copy what everyone else is doing because if everyone else is doing it it must be good right?
 
I can respect if Bethesda wants to try something new and I would even applaud them for doing so (though Bethesda attempting "tense and emotional" reeks of them just following the AAA fads)

You keep using that fad word but it's anything but a fad, it's just the more recent form of what games have always tried to do since Tennis for two: immerse the player in the game. The history of video game is making video game more immersive, more tangible, more cohesive (I'm deliberately avoiding realism here), and a voiced protagonist is just another natural step, one of the previous step was voiced NPC, and an even earlier step was just voice at all.

And frankly, the voiced protagonist is already part of the furniture, the next step is taking advantage of the fact that everyone actually speak to try to breathe some life into the game world, and by life, I mean of course emotion, because life is basically emotion. That's something of a trademark for Bioware, less so for Bethesda, but I think Beth has had the same will of making immersive worlds, perhaps in different ways that Bioware worlds, but it's the same overall goal, and now Beth wants to crank up the immersion even more with actual life.

Motion gaming, stereoscopic 3D were both fads, immersion, especially in an RPG, is a constant gaming trend.

but at the same time if you were to hear that the cripple kid is going to try out of the major league rugby team you can't tell me there isnt a small part of you dreading the results.

Seriously ? is that your counter-argument ? calling Bethesda cripple ?

[Queen Skadi]

immersion, especially in an RPG, is a constant gaming trend.

 

Oh honey, I am not sure you know what that word entails, of course I totally agree that immersion is an incredibly important goal to accomplish in video games but merely watching a character get on his knees and sob uncontrollably shaking their fists at god and yell "HOW DO I STOP THESE TEARS!!!!!" is not the same as immersing the player in the role of that character and the world of the video game.

 

It should be noted there is nothing wrong with genuinely wanting to make your game tense and emotional, it is a fine goal that should be aimed for, but that being said I am not entirely sure most of the developers shooting for this goal know exactly what it entails, and worse I am not sure they are doing it because they genuinely think it is the best move for whatever series they are working on but rather because they know that if they just claim that their game is going for a "tense emotional experience" the hipster crowd will jump all over it.

 

 

Seriously ? is that your counter-argument ? calling Bethesda cripple ?

 

Well they aren't exactly superstars in the writing department now are they? Not saying they should not shoot for the target but I do doubt their ability to pull it off, also it doesn't matter how good your writers are I do think trying to force emotional connections on the player like giving their character a spouse and whatnot is generally a bad idea in a video game setting, much better to allow the player to form their own emotional connections to the world.

[Cyonan]

Well they aren't exactly superstars in the writing department now are they? Not saying they should not shoot for the target but I do doubt their ability to pull it off, also it doesn't matter how good your writers are I do think trying to force emotional connections on the player like giving their character a spouse and whatnot is generally a bad idea in a video game setting, much better to allow the player to form their own emotional connections to the world.

 

I think emotional connections like that can work in video games provided they're well written and you establish the character rather than saying "this is your spouse. Care about them".

 

Of course knowing Bethesda, 15 minutes into Fallout 4 your spouse will probably die anyway before we as the player have been given sufficient enough character development to give a damn about them.

[Vapaa]

Oh honey, I am not sure you know what that word entails, of course I totally agree that immersion is an incredibly important goal to accomplish in video games but merely watching a character get on his knees and sob uncontrollably shaking their fists at god and yell "HOW DO I STOP THESE TEARS!!!!!" is not the same as immersing the player in the role of that character and the world of the video game.

You are mixing the aim and the result, laughable sob stories and engaging emotional stories are two different outcome of the same will of making something emotional.

When I say "immersion" it's a shorthand for making the game world feel alive and tangile, and to be alive and tangile, you need a wide variety of things including the emotional aspect that inevitably comes with the fact that the characters are humans.

You can botch this like the last two Wolfenstein games did, but that's doesn't invalidate the basic direction that has been taken.

It should be noted there is nothing wrong with genuinely wanting to make your game tense and emotional, it is a fine goal that should be aimed for, but that being said I am not entirely sure most of the developers shooting for this goal know exactly what it entails, and worse I am not sure they are doing it because they genuinely think it is the best move for whatever series they are working on but rather because they know that if they just claim that their game is going for a "tense emotional experience" the hipster crowd will jump all over it.

What is even the "hipster crowd" ?

The success and memetic presence of Mass effect in gaming shows that it's actually a good chunk of people that want more emotional stories, another example is the general praise of TLOU, it's not a "hipster thing", people want emotionaly engaging stories.

And for the particular shift from Beth's part, I do belive it's genuine, after all, Bethesda has always wanted their game worlds to be immersive, and engaging storyline is the next logical step

Well they aren't exactly superstars in the writing department now are they?

That doesn't make them cripple, being cripple is a physical condition, and there is no physical condition for uninspired writting.

Not saying they should not shoot for the target but I do doubt their ability to pull it off

But how do you improve if you don't practice ?

also it doesn't matter how good your writers are I do think trying to force emotional connections on the player like giving their character a spouse and whatnot is generally a bad idea in a video game setting, much better to allow the player to form their own emotional connections to the world.

That's pure speculation that the background will play a significant part of the emotional aspect.

[Queen Skadi]

I think emotional connections like that can work in video games provided they're well written and you establish the character rather than saying "this is your spouse. Care about them".

 

Of course knowing Bethesda, 15 minutes into Fallout 4 your spouse will probably die anyway before we as the player have been given sufficient enough character development to give a damn about them.

 

They can work but I still don't think they should be forced on the player, it should ultimately be up to the player how they feel about certain characters in the story, it is why giving the protagonist a spouse, parents or siblings is a bad idea because it is implied that these characters should be important to your character regardless of how you the player feel about them and if worse comes to worse and you develop a genuine dislike towards these characters having the main character get all emotional when they die only serves as a disconnect between player and character.

 

Mentor characters like Duncan are a better fit because while their deaths can be impactful provided you actually felt something for the character the game does not force your character to give a **** if you felt nothing.

[Queen Skadi]

You are mixing the aim and the result, laughable sob stories and engaging emotional stories are two different outcome of the same will of making something emotional.

When I say "immersion" it's a shorthand for making the game world feel alive and tangile, and to be alive and tangile, you need a wide variety of things including the emotional aspect that inevitably comes with the fact that the characters are humans.

 

Never said other characters in the game world shouldn't display emotion, however when it comes to the protagonist for whom the player is acting as the conscience for it is very hard to accurately predict the emotional state of the player and have to protagonist reflect that.

 

What is even the "hipster crowd" ?

 

The type of people who like games like The Last of Us and Heavy Rain, the type of games that try to hide the fact that they are completely devoid of any new or interesting concepts by having their characters constantly display over exaggerated emotions like a bad midday soap opera, such games are usually easy to spot due to the developers constantly harping on about wanting to create "tense emotional storytelling experiences", looking at you Quantum Break. 

 

That doesn't make them cripple, being cripple is a physical condition, and there is no physical condition for uninspired writting.

 

It was a metaphor, basically saying sending somebody to do something they aren't very good at does not inspire much confidence. Who knows perhaps they will surprise everyone and I will be forced to eat some humble pie? That said I don't think Hell will be freezing over any time soon.

 

But how do you improve if you don't practice ?

 

Again, never said the shouldn't, merely dreading the results, if they can attempt it without sacrificing the spirit of Bethesda games then there is no reason the should not try, but it would look like they have already shoe horned in the spouse and backstory for the very purpose of crafting the "tense and emotional experience" giving me the impression that they plan to try and force it down your throat with a sledgehammer instead of letting it flow naturally as the result of good writing.

 

That's pure speculation that the background will play a significant part of the emotional aspect.

 

Perhaps but it is probably one of the surest bets you could ever make about the finished state of Fallout 4.

[BraveVesperia]

I really like it when the protag is more emotional, but only when I can pick it (like in DAI), not when it's forced (like ME3). DA2 had some forced emotion, but it didn't feel like it. Hawke was clearly depressed after their mother died, but that's to be expected, considering that it's a close family and no matter how you play, Hawke loves their mother. It's also the worst thing that's happened to them so far. Shep being depressed about Thessia is much more subjective.

 

It was great having the 'reaction wheel' in DAI, because it gave me room to react in different ways. I have an Inquisitor who got really upset and tearful when Solas broke up with her, then watched forlornly as he walked off. But I know you also have the option to shout at him and then storm off yourself, so I'll try that on a replay. It's great to suit different characters.

[Vapaa]

Never said other characters in the game world shouldn't display emotion, however when it comes to the protagonist for whom the player is acting as the conscience for it is very hard to accurately predict the emotional state of the player and have to protagonist reflect that.

 
The player should adapt to the protagonist, after all, it's the protagonist that lives the events of the game.

The type of people who like games like The Last of Us and Heavy Rain, the type of games that try to hide the fact that they are completely devoid of any new or interesting concepts by having their characters constantly display over exaggerated emotions like a bad midday soap opera, such games are usually easy to spot due to the developers constantly harping on about wanting to create "tense emotional storytelling experiences", looking at you Quantum Break.

 
So the "hipster crowd" is basically people that like different things than you.

It was a metaphor, basically saying sending somebody to do something they aren't very good at does not inspire much confidence. Who knows perhaps they will surprise everyone and I will be forced to eat some humble pie? That said I don't think Hell will be freezing over any time soon.

 
It was a terrible metaphor, being bad at something is NOTHING as being crippled. 

Again, never said the shouldn't, merely dreading the results, if they can attempt it without sacrificing the spirit of Bethesda games then there is no reason the should not try, but it would look like they have already shoe horned in the spouse and backstory for the very purpose of crafting the "tense and emotional experience" giving me the impression that they plan to try and force it down your throat with a sledgehammer instead of letting it flow naturally as the result of good writing.

 
Again, dreading the result is irrelevant to the fact that aiming for an engaging emotional experience, is just another step towards more immersion, which is not a fad. 

Perhaps but it is probably one of the surest bets you could ever make about the finished state of Fallout 4.

No

[Queen Skadi]

 The player should adapt to the protagonist, after all, it's the protagonist that lives the events of the game.

 

So the protagonist should be the one making the decisions while the player is just along for the ride observing? I believe that is what they usually call a movie.

 

So the "hipster crowd" is basically people that like different things than you.

 

Not sure actually liking things is really a factor here, to them taste is more of an accessory that you judge your self worth and the worth of others by, basically if they think liking something makes them look cultured and sophisticated they will all gather in the echo chamber echoing each other's remarks about how wonderful the emperor's clothes look all while trying to avoid eye contact with the emperor's naked wang.

 

Again, dreading the result is irrelevant to the fact that aiming for an engaging emotional experience, is just another step towards more immersion

 

Not really, I would argue the steps the are taking seem to be moving away from making an immersive experience, the only thing I can see Bethesda achieving with their approach is to alienate the player from the character they are in control of. Perhaps allowing a degree of customization to the husbando/waifu character will allow the player to form a greater attachment to them and make them feel compelled to scour the Wasteland for them, perhaps the idea has potential (they certainly missed a huge opportunity for co-op gameplay, unless it is a surprise reveal that unlocks once you have been reunited with your spouse after reaching a certain point in the story, generally not the sort of feature you would want to keep hidden though) but at the moment I can't help but be a little skeptical.

[Vapaa]

So the protagonist should be the one making the decisions while the player is just along for the ride observing? I believe that is what they usually call a movie.

The player makes the character take the decisions that the game allows them to take.

I do belive that a video game character is never truly mine; no matter the degree of interactivity the game allows, the character is always a separate entity than me.
 

Not sure actually liking things is really a factor here, to them taste is more of an accessory that you judge your self worth and the worth of others by, basically if they think liking something makes them look cultured and sophisticated they will all gather in the echo chamber echoing each other's remarks about how wonderful the emperor's clothes look all while trying to avoid eye contact with the emperor's naked wang.

 
[citation needed]
 

Not really, I would argue the steps the are taking seem to be moving away from making an immersive experience, the only thing I can see Bethesda achieving with their approach is to alienate the player from the character they are in control of. Perhaps allowing a degree of customization to the husbando/waifu character will allow the player to form a greater attachment to them and make them feel compelled to scour the Wasteland for them, perhaps the idea has potential (they certainly missed a huge opportunity for co-op gameplay, unless it is a surprise reveal that unlocks once you have been reunited with your spouse after reaching a certain point in the story, generally not the sort of feature you would want to keep hidden though) but at the moment I can't help but be a little skeptical.

All of this is based on the assumption that the spouse will have a significant impact on the emotional content of the game, which is just a baseless assumption.

Again trying to go emotional is not a "AAA fad" like you said but an ongoing trend of the media from years.

[Hazegurl]

Silent protagonists and voiced protagonists both have their place depending on the type of game you are trying to create, while I do have my doubts on how well the voiced protagonist in Fallout 4 will be received by the Bethesda fanbase it isn't the part about the protagonist having a voice that makes me gag but the fact they want to make a "tense emotional experience".

While I think Skyrim sucked I can't really judge their storytelling skills because a part of me thinks it sucked in part because they were writing a story centered on the emotionless blank slate and yes silent PC. So, if they want to create a tense emotional experience and are making the changes they feel they need to give the player that experience effectively, then I prefer to not judge based on the "story" they produced before when they were using different methods.

[Former_Fiend]

Just going to say for the record that I'm a big fan of both Bioware and Bethesda. To date I haven't played a game from either of them that I haven't enjoyed.

[Queen Skadi]

The player makes the character take the decisions that the game allows them to take.

I do belive that a video game character is never truly mine; no matter the degree of interactivity the game allows, the character is always a separate entity than me.

 

Decisions are largely based off the thoughts, feelings and emotions of the person making them, if you are going to have the protagonist as a totally separate entity with their own thoughts, feelings and emotions then why bother letting the player choose at all? Why not have the protagonist make their own decisions? Why not just create a movie?

 

[citation needed]

 

It would require a lengthy post to fully explain it and even then I doubt you would fully understand it, in your case it would require a degree of self awareness and I just don't think you are ready to acknowledge that part of yourself.

 

All of this is based on the assumption that the spouse will have a significant impact on the emotional content of the game, which is just a baseless assumption.

Again trying to go emotional is not a "AAA fad" like you said but an ongoing trend of the media from years.

 

 

An assumption, yes baseless though? No, one only needs to be able to recognize the patterns of the AAA industry to see where they are probably going with this.

 

Sure there are many developers who are able to pull off the emotional narrative quite well and hopefully it will be something that future developers continue to improve on in the future. however most developers that try to use "tense and emotional" as a selling point usually crowbar it in with a sort of forcefulness that isn't about creating a deep and meaningful narrative but more fooling the player into thinking the narrative is deep and meaningful by having their characters sob about things the player has no reason to care about, and much to my dismay it actually fools a lot of people which is why so many AAA developers like it so much and are following suit.

 

These developers know that all they need to do to get the pretentious hipster crowd eating out of their hands is to claim "tense and emotional!" because they know as soon as they say it the pretentious hipster crowd have already rated it, a flip gets switched in their brain that goes "hey I like tense emotional stuff because I am such a deep, cultured and sophisticated individual therefor this game must be the best ever and anyone who disagrees is a COD fanboy! 10/10!", the don't even need to play the game to be able to make that judgement call as any reviewer who got the game early will soon find out when they give the game an 8/10.

 

It is why every second word that comes out of David Cage's mouth is "feeling" and "emotion"

 

 

[Queen Skadi]

While I think Skyrim sucked I can't really judge their storytelling skills because a part of me thinks it sucked in part because they were writing a story centered on the emotionless blank slate and yes silent PC.

 

Haha no, pretty sure Skyrim had far bigger storytelling problems than just the silent protagonist.

[Hazegurl]

Haha no, pretty sure Skyrim had far bigger storytelling problems than just the silent protagonist.

I agree, I listed silent as one of the problems not the main issue. Skyrim was just a "Run around this world. pretend you live in it...oh yeah and you're some sort of dragonborn." game to me.  I just hope that this change in pace is what's needed to make their games interesting to me.

 

Either way we're gonna disagree because you prefer no emotion at all. I prefer to role play a PC who is actually invested in the story and the world around him. A PC shouldn't be a faceless blob players can project all over and I'm glad some devs are realizing that it doesn't make very interesting protagonists or story.

[Queen Skadi]

I prefer to role play a PC who is actually invested in the story and the world around him.

 

Define "role play", are you actually playing the role or merely observing one?