116 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew Lucas]

Why make such a pointless thread? Go joke on Twitter.

[Arcian]

Quite easily, just don't have him grin like a lunatic when he removes a Quarian's visor or dispay maudlin emotion when a character dies, it is not about banishing emotion completely but toning it down to the point where a player wont feel alienated if they don't feel an emotion the developers expect them to have at the time.

You feeling alienated is YOUR problem, you can't realistically expect BioWare to account for every imaginable reaction from every imaginable fan. Their job is to create compelling characters, not walking mirrors for narcissists to sploosh unto.

[Queen Skadi]

You feeling alienated is YOUR problem, you can't realistically expect BioWare to account for every imaginable reaction from every imaginable fan. Their job is to create compelling characters, not walking mirrors for narcissists to sploosh unto.

 

Their job is to create video games, if they want to make interactive movies then I suppose that is on them however I would have hoped more developers were willing to move away from trying to be movies and realize the things that make the video game platform a strong artform in it's own right.

 

I don't expect them to be able to accurately mimic every imaginable reaction from every imaginable fan as such a task is impossible, however don't have the player character burst into tears as a non-subtle way of saying "this is what you should be feeling at this moment", let the player make up their own mind about how they feel about events.

[Former_Fiend]

BioWare doesn't want to make movies.

 

Naughty Dog wants to make movies. 

[Obvakhi]

 

 

 

This is the new Sheploo

[Hazegurl]

Define "role play", are you actually playing the role or merely observing one?

Are you playing a role or merely playing yourself?

 

The way I see it, being able to step in someone elses shoes completely is the highest form of role playing. You're someone else entirely not simply imagining yourself in a new world. But that's just me.

[Queen Skadi]

The way I see it, being able to step in someone elses shoes completely is the highest form of role playing.

 

But merely watching the onscreen character sob uncontrollably isn't really stepping into somebody else's shoes now is it? It is just watching some character sob uncontrollably from an outside perspective, you don't call watching a movie and observing how other characters react to the stimuli "stepping into someone else's shoes".

 

But as for the question you asked of me I am not a space pathfinder/explorer so of course I am playing a role, I can allow myself to think like the role i am inhabiting and allow myself to see things from different perspectives and ideologies, however my thoughts, feelings and how I view things within the context of the game and the character I am playing will always be my own, it would be a lie to say that there isn't a degree of self insertion however it isn't the same as just having the protagonist be you in the video game universe either.

[Vapaa]

Decisions are largely based off the thoughts, feelings and emotions of the person making them, if you are going to have the protagonist as a totally separate entity with their own thoughts, feelings and emotions then why bother letting the player choose at all? Why not have the protagonist make their own decisions? Why not just create a movie?

 
It's not a "totally separate entity", it's a separate entity in the sense than the background, outlook on the world, relationships and so on are not mine, but the fact that you control them, no matter the degree of control, makes you bond with them, again with variying intensity, so it's not like the character is a complete stranger either.

It would require a lengthy post to fully explain it and even then I doubt you would fully understand it, in your case it would require a degree of self awareness and I just don't think you are ready to acknowledge that part of yourself.

 
Translation: "I have no rational explanation so I will pretend that it is too intellectual for a moron like you"

An assumption, yes baseless though? No, one only needs to be able to recognize the patterns of the AAA industry to see where they are probably going with this.

"the patterns of the AAA industry", is very vague, how about some example ?
And regardless of the "AAA patterns" it's still speculation so you can't use it against the game, since it's an observation that doesn't came from it.

Sure there are many developers who are able to pull off the emotional narrative quite well and hopefully it will be something that future developers continue to improve on in the future. however most developers that try to use "tense and emotional" as a selling point usually crowbar it in with a sort of forcefulness that isn't about creating a deep and meaningful narrative but more fooling the player into thinking the narrative is deep and meaningful by having their characters sob about things the player has no reason to care about, and much to my dismay it actually fools a lot of people which is why so many AAA developers like it so much and are following suit.

The fact that many botch the execution doesn't mean it should be dropped.

The recent Wolfenstein features some laughable sob sob monologues, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome a form of "tired veteran" characterization of BJ Blazko, just a (way) better one.

These developers know that all they need to do to get the pretentious hipster crowd eating out of their hands is to claim "tense and emotional!" because they know as soon as they say it the pretentious hipster crowd have already rated it, a flip gets switched in their brain that goes "hey I like tense emotional stuff because I am such a deep, cultured and sophisticated individual therefor this game must be the best ever and anyone who disagrees is a COD fanboy! 10/10!", the don't even need to play the game to be able to make that judgement call as any reviewer who got the game early will soon find out when they give the game an 8/10.

"hipster crowd"...

*yawn*

[Queen Skadi]

 
It's not a "totally separate entity", it's a separate entity in the sense than the background, outlook on the world, relationships and so on are not mine, but the fact that you control them, no matter the degree of control, makes you bond with them, again with variying intensity, so it's not like the character is a complete stranger either.

 

Sorry I am having a hard time trying to figure out what you mean by this, the fact that you control the character's backstory, outlook and relationships allows you to bond with them? Or merely the fact that you press the analogue stick and mash buttons to get them through combat sections allows you to bond with them as they make the important decisions on how they feel about all this?

 

 
Translation: "I have no rational explanation so I will pretend that it is too intellectual for a moron like you"

 

To be fair I never said it was the fact that you are a moron that prevents you from understanding but rather your lack of self awareness that prevents you from actually wanting to understand.

 

 
"the patterns of the AAA industry", is very vague, how about some example ?
And regardless of the "AAA patterns" it's still speculation so you can't use it against the game, since it's an observation that doesn't came from it.

 

I have already given you an example, "tense emotion" as a selling point, just look at many of the AAA reboots like Hitman: Absolution, instead of innovating and expanding on what made the originals so great they just gave everyone the "lite" version and focused on more linear set pieces in order to tell a more "emotive and personal" story somewhat destroying the spirit of the franchise.

 

As for using the AAA patterns to judge Fallout 4 I am not, I am merely looking at the information we have now and using my knowledge of AAA patterns to form a prediction on where the game will probably end up. I could be wrong, there is no way to know until we actually play the game, however from what I can see it looks like there is a good chance of rain.

 

The fact that many botch the execution doesn't mean it should be dropped.

 

It is not that they botch the execution it is that the method of execution they use is flawed.

 

 

 

[Hazegurl]

But merely watching the onscreen character sob uncontrollably isn't really stepping into somebody else's shoes now is it?

 

Just watching is what you're doing.

 

 

It is just watching some character sob uncontrollably from an outside perspective, you don't call watching a movie and observing how other characters react to the stimuli "stepping into someone else's shoes".

 

Apart of stepping in a person's shoes is understanding where they are coming from and the events leading up to that moment in the story. It's isn't literal, you most certainly don't do it even with a blank slate character.  Because you're never truly that character. All the dialogue is chosen by someone else whether emotions are behind it or not so your thoughts and feelings are never 100% your own. But at least I can explore the emotive character more and I feel far more invested in them as a result.

 

But anyway, I'm done with this thread.This is just a pointless black and forth now.

 

[Vapaa]

Sorry I am having a hard time trying to figure out what you mean by this, the fact that you control the character's backstory, outlook and relationships allows you to bond with them? Or merely the fact that you press the analogue stick and mash buttons to get them through combat sections allows you to bond with them as they make the important decisions on how they feel about all this?

The fact that I see the world through the character's eyes makes me bond with them, always on a different level (for instance the bond is stronger with Shepard than Noble 6, because the interactivity is higher).

But no matter how much the game make me feel part of the game universe, it's not me who's out there.

To be fair I never said it was the fact that you are a moron that prevents you from understanding but rather your lack of self awareness that prevents you from actually wanting to understand.

That's still making baseless assumptions about me, and what do you know about my self awareness anyway ? you guys don't know each other.
 

I have already given you an example, "tense emotion" as a selling point, just look at many of the AAA reboots like Hitman: Absolution, instead of innovating and expanding on what made the originals so great they just gave everyone the "lite" version and focused on more linear set pieces in order to tell a more "emotive and personal" story somewhat destroying the spirit of the franchise.
 
As for using the AAA patterns to judge Fallout 4 I am not, I am merely looking at the information we have now and using my knowledge of AAA patterns to form a prediction on where the game will probably end up. I could be wrong, there is no way to know until we actually play the game, however from what I can see it looks like there is a good chance of rain.

"using my knowledge of AAA patterns" and then taking the example of a more linear game (Hitman Absolution) to judge a well known open-world/do-whatever game ?

You're just seeing what you want to see here.

It is not that they botch the execution it is that the method of execution they use is flawed.

That's a form of botching the execution in my book.

[Queen Skadi]

Apart of stepping in a person's shoes is understanding where they are coming from and the events leading up to that moment in the story. It's isn't literal, you most certainly don't do it even with a blank slate character.  Because you're never truly that character. All the dialogue is chosen by someone else whether emotions are behind it or not so your thoughts and feelings are never 100% your own. But at least I can explore the emotive character more and I feel far more invested in them as a result.

 

You can explore the mindset of the emotive character, and depending on how well they are written, understand, sympathize and even relate to the character, but it is not the same as stepping into the role of that character, you can understand, sympathize and relate to characters in movies too, emotive and fleshed out characters are great when it comes to side characters and companions in a video game but not necessary or even ideal for the protagonist themselves.

 

While it is true that when it comes to dialogue and taking different paths or course of action that there are only a limited ammount that can be supported by the game a lot of the time many of these choices can be open to interpretation when it comes to what the choices mean to your character and why they made them and when it comes to your thoughts and feelings on what you are experiencing they should always be 100% your own.

[Queen Skadi]

The fact that I see the world through the character's eyes makes me bond with them, always on a different level (for instance the bond is stronger with Shepard than Noble 6, because the interactivity is higher).

 

The more control you have over a character the greater the link between player and character? I totally agree, which is why giving the player more control over the inner thoughts and emotions (or at the very least not taking that control away from the player by having the character act in a manner that shows emotions the player themselves may not want to reciprocate) only strengthens that link.

 

That's still making baseless assumptions about me, and what do you know about my self awareness anyway ?

 

Oh honey, you aren't quite the closed book you might like to think you are, you can tell a lot about a person by what they post.

 

"using my knowledge of AAA patterns" and then taking the example of a more linear game (Hitman Absolution) to judge a well known open-world/do-whatever game ?

You're just seeing what you want to see here.

 

No you are just ignoring the evidence, just because games are different doesn't mean they don't have similarities and can't adopt things from other genres and story elements aren't tied exclusively to one genre alone.

 

Being more linear or more open (though I find it funny you call Absolution linear as the open ended mission design was always a big part of the appeal of Hitman before Absolution) does not prevent these games from being able to use the same methods when it comes to storytelling.

 

That's a form of botching the execution in my book.

 

No botching the execution is hitting the target with the flat side of the axe, a flawed method of execution is trying to decapitate somebody with an asparagus leaf.

 

You can botch something even when you are using a good method, in these cases you just gotta work on your swing, however it does not matter how good you are with an asparagus leaf the flawed method will always yield sub par results.

[Vapaa]

The more control you have over a character the greater the link between player and character? I totally agree, which is why giving the player more control over the inner thoughts and emotions (or at the very least not taking that control away from the player by having the character act in a manner that shows emotions the player themselves may not want to reciprocate) only strengthens that link.

 
Not for me, because the bland state protagonist creates a dissonance in a world where everyone speaks, and it's not even a great canvas for the emotional state of your character, because the expression of emotional state comes with voice tone. A silent protagonist forces you to imagine the tone of the voice, and it doesn't always align with the intendend tone wich the NPC responds to.
 

Oh honey, you aren't quite the closed book you might like to think you are, you can tell a lot about a person by what they post.

 
How about you expose your "findings" then ?
 

No you are just ignoring the evidence, just because games are different doesn't mean they don't have similarities and can't adopt things from other genres and story elements aren't tied exclusively to one genre alone.

From Hitman absolution to Fallout 4 ? seriously ?
 

Being more linear or more open (though I find it funny you call Absolution linear as the open ended mission design was always a big part of the appeal of Hitman before Absolution) does not prevent these games from being able to use the same methods when it comes to storytelling.

It does actually but only slightly, what is a much impactful difference however is the variation in character allowed by the game; 47 is a set character, with a set story, while the Sole survivor is a more flexible character regarding their relationships, morality (karma) and alligeance.

This variability cause the world to be more reactive and thus the storytelling methods are different, it uses more conditional eents than scripted events.
 

No botching the execution is hitting the target with the flat side of the axe, a flawed method of execution is trying to decapitate somebody with an asparagus leaf.
 
You can botch something even when you are using a good method, in these cases you just gotta work on your swing, however it does not matter how good you are with an asparagus leaf the flawed method will always yield sub par results.

That's semantics, be it a botched good method or a bad method, it'll yield subpar results, I'm talking mainly about the intent vs the result, the execution is a whole topic in itself.

[Queen Skadi]

 
Not for me, because the bland state protagonist creates a dissonance in a world where everyone speaks, and it's not even a great canvas for the emotional state of your character, because the expression of emotional state comes with voice tone. A silent protagonist forces you to imagine the tone of the voice, and it doesn't always align with the intendend tone wich the NPC responds to.

 

Page 4, post 4, big capital letters that are bolded and underlined so you can't miss em, well obviously you somehow did manage to miss them but I am sure now that I have pointed them out and given you the exact location you can't miss them this time.

 

While it is not to say Silent protagonists don't have their place I do have to admit in games that have a more cinematic presentation to dialogue it might look a little silly. Some games can get away with it others not so much.

 

How about you expose your "findings" then ?

 

I already told you, you aren't ready to acknowledge those parts of yourself.

 

From Hitman absolution to Fallout 4 ? seriously ?

 

Ya, seriously!

 

It does actually but only slightly, what is a much impactful difference however is the variation in character allowed by the game; 47 is a set character, with a set story, while the Sole survivor is a more flexible character regarding their relationships, morality (karma) and alligeance.

This variability cause the world to be more reactive and thus the storytelling methods are different, it uses more conditional eents than scripted events.

 

true but I was mostly talking about their method of crowbaring in "tense emotion" than the general approach to storytelling overall, while I am sure the Sole Survivor (is that what they are calling the protag of Fallout 4?) may be more flexible than 47 in a number of areas I am pretty sure the developers are relying on the whole spouse, kid and character with a background angle to supply the "tense emotion" they were hoping to inject the franchise with and it looks like there things are non-negotiable.

 

That's semantics, be it a botched good method or a bad method, it'll yield subpar results, I'm talking mainly about the intent vs the result, the execution is a whole topic in itself.

 

There is nothing wrong with the goal of trying to make an emotional experience for the player however I thought you were talking about trying to improve a bad method of execution rather than finding alternate and more effective methods?

[Vapaa]

Page 4, post 4, big capital letters that are bolded and underlined so you can't miss em, well obviously you somehow did manage to miss them but I am sure now that I have pointed them out and given you the exact location you can't miss them this time.

It's very well and all but when you say this: "not taking that control away from the player by having the character act in a manner that shows emotions the player themselves may not want to reciprocate"

I don't really see something other than the dialogue, sure actions have their place, but the primary source of expression is speaking.
 

I already told you, you aren't ready to acknowledge those parts of yourself.

 
I don't need you patronizing, say what you have to say or don't, but don't pretend you have stuff outside of my cognitive abilities without proving it.
 

true but I was mostly talking about their method of crowbaring in "tense emotion" [...] I am pretty sure the developers are relying on the whole spouse, kid and character with a background angle to supply the "tense emotion" they were hoping to inject the franchise with and it looks like there things are non-negotiable.

Again, pure speculation.
 

There is nothing wrong with the goal of trying to make an emotional experience for the player however I thought you were talking about trying to improve a bad method of execution rather than finding alternate and more effective methods?

A bad method is something nobody should go with and much less waste effort improving, and especially with emotional stuff than can so easily miss the mark. It's an alchemy, and alchemy requires a good method in the first place. I'm not trying to argue if a botched good method is worse than a plain bad method, I'm saying that both are not examples to be followed.

[Queen Skadi]

It's very well and all but when you say this: "not taking that control away from the player by having the character act in a manner that shows emotions the player themselves may not want to reciprocate"

I don't really see something other than the dialogue, sure actions have their place, but the primary source of expression is speaking.

 

I am talking about moments like when Leandra dies where Hawke has a pained expression on their face and a sad tone in their voice as if they are fighting back the tears when I the player found Leandra to be a very hard character to like and form a bond with making her death have no impact for me whatsoever. Not a big fan of those forced connections that try to tell you that you should feel a certain way about certain things, it is possible to speak and act in a way that does not betray too much emotion making it harder to tell what the character might be thinking and feeling, in a video game I feel it is better to portray the sort of protagonist that internalizes their emotions as it allows the player to form their own thoughts, feelings and emotions without feeling disconnected to the character they are playing.