28 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

Hey gals & guys,

 

I'll spare you with any more context, except that it was a very boring day off. Hence, I took the time and took a hard look at my favourite character - sorted out what most people had problems with & tried employing my own little vision on how to make the Hunter both more powerful as well as useful.

 

Just let me say beforehandedly that I always felt the competition with the Archer for raw DPS moot, so it may or may not be obvious that this could change Thornton's designation to "Rogue: Supporter". I will show you both trees, highlight some of the more extreme changes respectively, and then kindly await your judgement onto how insane/entitled/needy I am.

 

To the Bioware lads & ladies: I genuinely do not mean to undermine your vision, but rather react to the fact that some theoretically nice things did not work out in practice as they may have been intended - this is more of a "want" than a "should", I suppose.

 

 

It mixes a lot of things up from the original, but the reasoning should be rather straightforward: Earlier access to active skills, focus on actual traps. Passives rearranged to better synergize with skills; in hindsight to previously unfortunate and thus unpopular combinations.

 

Tricks of the Trade (+10% status effect damage & duration for entire group) moved in between debuff traps. Fury of the Storm paired with Elemental Mines, so the Stamina drain of the upgrade even yields an advantage of bonus damage. Active attack skills moved to mid tier, straightforward approach reinforced with Pincushion. Full Draw moved to high tier skill and paired with First Blood to make it a dsignated opener; the upgrade makes this more of a Trapping- rather than Survival skill anyways IMO.

 

 

 

Again, I rearranged certain Passives to my personal idea of logic.

 

Most noticeably, I made my eternal threat real and snagged Flanking Fire from the Archer. I did away with Sleeping Powder, which is sadly too redundant outside solo runs, due the basic way most matches go down. Moved Hook & Tackle up a little, to make it accesible easier and in tune with the general approach of a build that incorporates it, paired it with Easy To Miss. It's an amazing Passive, but not amazing enough to be all the way down, and also quite useless for a Stealth focused build.

 

I admittedly went a little crazy in the bottom tier, based on Wavebend's idea to add Cloak of Shadows. Just as a reminder, depending on how they would handle it, CoS turns your entire party invisible for 3, 6 or 9 seconds depending on your focus level. The kicker is, that attacking or taking damage does not break this particular brand of Stealth - so I'd say 5 seconds and a long CD would be fair.

 

Furthermore, I wanted to put a little more emphasis on the Hunter as a team player, as well as the whole "veteran-officer-who-cannot-be-killed"-premise, so I daringly added Cycle of Life and  Unyielding. Now, I actually do not  know if that is too much, or not enough.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for bearing with me so far.  If not:

TL;DR The idea was to let the Archer be the ranged DPS beast we need, and to make the Hunter an expert on actual trapping, survival & camouflage.

 

I would love to hear your feedback!

 

Cheers,

Dieb

[BiggyDX]

I think you meant Unyielding instead of Unbowed. Given his up close play style it's honestly not that radical, though I'd replace Circle of Life with Avenger (100% damage bonus when teammate dies) myself. If it's in his Survival tree, than he's going to fight hard as hell to stay alive. Spike Trap being the starting ability could definitely be a good mix up, but I'm wondering how that would impact new player performance.

Overall... Not bad. Not bad at all.

[Dieb]

Thank you! I corrected it to, of course, Unyielding.

 

I was considering Avenger myself, but I wasn't sure if that would even work; especially because it adds "maximum Elusive stacks". The idea behind Circle of Life was kind of the "leave me, the mission is more important, give em hell" thing.

 

I don't think that should be too much of a problem, given the Hunter is not a starting character. Have some faith, I say.

[Wavebend]

I like the idea of support rogue, but wouldn't implement it the way you did.

 

If the Hunter is reworked as a support rogue, then I'd like to see him as a weaker rogue with great support/trapping/physical cc abilities, which is why I recommended Cloak of Shadows in the first place.

 

However, IMO the game currently doesn't offer enough possibilities to make that happen.

 

If you think about it, the way you'd play your new kit would ultimately be similar to the old way, except for Cloak of Shadows. Unyielding is nice, Cycle of Life does add a bit of support-ish tone to the kit (imo doesn't fit him at all, but this isn't my design), but Spike Trap, Stealth, Leaping Shot and Throwing Blades would still become the go-to abilities until you unlock CoS.

 

I'd eventually like something completely different. Not sure how to implement it. As a support, the Hunter should have more CC (instead of less, you removed Sleeping Powder), but adding Caltrops and KO bomb still wouldn't make him stand out. Maybe he needs some new abilities.

[SCHBLRTZ]

If it wasn't for Unyielding and Cloak of Shadows I think your skill trees would actually be worse than the old one. Why did you remove Disable, Cheap Shot and Sadism? Those are actually good passives.

 

Set Them Up and Fighting Dirty passives seem to be in arbitrary positions because they are so far away from their respective skills(traps/poisons). Trading Exploding Shot for Spike Trap? Not a fan because Hunter already starts with a awkward ability at level 1 such as Fallback Plan. Easy to Miss behind Hook and Tackle seems pointless too.

 

You did manage to make him more survivable though, which I don't think was a problem for him in the first place.

[N7 Tigger]

And I, yet again, hover my mouse pointer over the skills in an attempt to bring up the tool tips. You just made the list.

[Theghostof_timmy]

Ew. Fallback plan. I want explosive shot back. Other than that, looks good to me.

[Proto]

Thanks for bearing with me so far.  If not:

TL;DR The idea was to let the Archer be the ranged DPS beast we need, and to make the Hunter an expert on actual trapping, survival & camouflage.

 

I would love to hear your feedback!

 

Cheers,

Dieb

 

Thanks for the tree layout. I'm curious though, why no "I was never here" ?

[JAMiAM]

And I, yet again, hover my mouse pointer over the skills in an attempt to bring up the tool tips. You just made the list.

Glad I'm not the only one who does this.

[Dieb]

Thanks for the tree layout. I'm curious though, why no "I was never here" ?

It was a conscious decision. I didn't want to be too liberal with the mega-passives.

For a similar reason I did not include Opportunity Knocks: It's the reason why the Archer works, and why the Artificer tree is strong in the SP, but at the same time: Why not give this to basically any class that uses stamina?

I might have added IWNH as a replacement for KITS, though. It should be behind Stealth, since some don't even use it at all.

Hm.

[Texasmotiv]

But you took away his only primer and he still has no detonator.

[Proto]

It was a conscious decision. I didn't want to be too liberal with the mega-passives.

For a similar reason I did not include Opportunity Knocks: It's the reason why the Archer works, and why the Artificer tree is strong in the SP, but at the same time: Why not give this to basically any class that uses stamina?

I might have added IWNH as a replacement for KITS, though. It should be behind Stealth, since some don't even use it at all.

Hm.

 

I'd consider putting "I was never here" where Cloak of Shadows is currently. Move Cloak of Shadows to where Full Draw is currently. Replace fighting dirty with Full Draw. Then move fighting dirty behind throwing blades.

[Proto]

But you took away his only primer and he still has no detonator.

 

Spike trap should be one of those, right? 

[Texasmotiv]

Spike trap would be fine, but that would be an indirect buff to the archer as well. Not that I ever have seen an archer take it.

 

I was thinking throwing blades.

[Proto]

I was thinking throwing blades.

 

Well played sir, well played.

[Wraggly]

I love this layout, but I'd honestly rather his trapping side was a bit more, trap, and a bit less archer.  Starting with Spike Trap is nice, and I like what you've done with Elem Mines + Fury of the storm.  I'd like to stick caltrops in place of Toxic Cloud, and stick disable behind it.

 

I'd want "Set them Up" to be along the center line, after pincushion, it's a tree about traps!

 

At the bottom of the tree, in place of Full Draw, I'd actually like to sit Poison Weapons + Explosive Toxins.  I feel this fits with the Trap + Auto Attack theme.  Also does Poison weapons function with Elem Mines/Caltrops? If so that would be amazing. Regardless it will work with abilities like Throwing Knives and Explosive Shot.

 

In the survival tree I'd love to just get rid of fall back plan, and put stealth in it's place.  In stealth's place I'd throw Knockout Bomb, and then the Mercy Killing passive.

 

I'd also really like Spike Traps Upgrade to increase its blast radius as well as not breaking stealth.

[TheThirdRace]

In the survival tree I'd love to just get rid of fall back plan, and put stealth in it's place.

Keep Fallback plan, move it if needed, but in Nightmare it's almost godly...

[T_elic]

The trapping tree is a huge improvement. One of my main complaints about the Hunter is that if you want to build a decent trapper, it takes you about 16 levels to get all of his skills.

[Domiel Angelus]

I like the trees you've built, but if they're re-doing his powers then I'd like to see both the Hunter and the Assassin acquire their own version of Gangway! to replace Hook and Tackle. Their version is now so very inferior because it only gets you into trouble but not out of it. It would free up a slot that means you can pick up something instead of needing H+T plus Leaping Shot if you're creating your build around that. 

 

You'd just have to rebuild it in such a way that its not overpowered:

 

It would still grant you the ability to get in and out of combat, it would do damage on the way in or out and the upgraded version could eliminate the stamina cost and reduce the cool-down time by 6 seconds. If it had the original upgrade that allows you to eliminate cost and cool-down it would become far too overpowered, but if it only reduced it to 6 seconds you'd still have to time it properly. 

 

Side Note: On that same token I would work in a version of Flow of Battle instead of Opportunity Knocks: That would mean you'd still have to work on your own critical strikes instead of leeching from the Archer's tree. It could grant either Constitution or Dexterity instead of Cunning as its bonus. 

[Geth Supremacy]

I think all of his bow attacks should be in 1 tree.  Not that my opinion matters...I'm just saying for people that prefer to stealth and bow attack only split trees are not fun.  Of course the same goes for pincushion. Could also swap with Evade.

 

I think hook and tackle would fit in the trapping tree a lot better than full draw as well.  Hook and tackle for a spike trap in a group.

[Dieb]

Thanks for all the input so far.

 

Just one thing I cannot stress enough: I don't know what's good and what's not. So please don't think this is meant to be an overall improvement (which it clearly isn't), I just went with concepts I like, and most of all, my very own playstyle in the foreground.

 

Some Many of the things mentioned make a lot of sense, however, and made me reconsider a few of my own ideas, so thanks for that as well!

 

I like the trees you've built, but if they're re-doing his powers then I'd like to see both the Hunter and the Assassin acquire their own version of Gangway! to replace Hook and Tackle. Their version is now so very inferior because it only gets you into trouble but not out of it. It would free up a slot that means you can pick up something instead of needing H+T plus Leaping Shot if you're creating your build around that.

 

[...]

 

Side Note: On that same token I would work in a version of Flow of Battle instead of Opportunity Knocks: That would mean you'd still have to work on your own critical strikes instead of leeching from the Archer's tree. It could grant either Constitution or Dexterity instead of Cunning as its bonus. 

 

Both of those ideas are great. I love Hook & Tackle; and although in the SP because you can afford to have Evade and FBP along with it, in the MP it's dangerous when not used smartly.

 

FoB also defeats my complaint about OK being to OP to just give to everyone, good thinking!

 

I think all of his bow attacks should be in 1 tree.  Not that my opinion matters...I'm just saying for people that prefer to stealth and bow attack only split trees are not fun.  Of course the same goes for pincushion. Could also swap with Evade.

 

I think hook and tackle would fit in the trapping tree a lot better than full draw as well.  Hook and tackle for a spike trap in a group.

 

Of course it matters. All I did was expressing my opinion, except I did it with Photoshop!

 

My idea was to make his straight-up bow attacks deliberately less prominent, actually. I find if you liked using ES, LS and FD, you will never be better at it than with the Archer.

 

You are right though. FD pairs well with Stealth, whereas H&T really doesn't. It goes well with FPB or Evade, but like Angelus pointed out, doesn't exactly get you out of trouble itself.

[LearnedHand]

Thumbs up! Nice looking tree and layout. I like how the active skills are uniformly laid out to the side with passives that would buff them most behind them. It makes it easy for someone new to the game to quickly scan the tree and see what options the class has.

 

Like others, I have some quibbles:

 

-unyielding feels wrong on the hunter. It feels wrong on the duelist as well imo. 

 

-easy to miss is such a great passive for a rogue's primary challenge in handling aggro and being a flanker. It feels buried behind hook and tackle and on the opposite side of stealth.

 

-explosive shot is too far down and feels odd in the trapping tree. It main use now is as a mediocre ranged starter skill, a survival tactic against clumps of advancing enemies/shielded mobs, and occasionally a potent opening attack. In your setup, I probably would never take it.

 

-I love spike trap, but as a starter skill? It's 500% weapon damage iirc, with instant cast, knockup, in a small aoe. I guess this way would encourage people to use this under appreciated skill.

 

In any case, nice job.

[BiggyDX]

Maybe the Hunter needs a new ability or two all together.

[SCHBLRTZ]

Some here are suggesting him to have Gangway in place of Hook and Tackle. I would much rather have something else, like Keelhaul or Blinding Shot from the Duelist or perhaps Hidden Blades. Those three fit the Hunter's theme quite well I think. Caltrops could work too but only if that skill is being buffed in a meaningful way. Also Poisoned Weapons should work as well.

 

For passives I would want I Was Never Here, Flow of Battle and Looked Like It Hurt. Sneak Attack and Flanking Fire would be cool too.

 

Knockout Powder, Hook and Tackle, Full Draw, Evade and Fallback Plan all should to be either reworked or changed in to something that is actually useful. Traps are also quite useless but people seem to like them for some reason so I could settle for a damage buff so that those players are not completely useless.

[Samahl na Revas]

I like that Full draw is still 5 points to obtain. I don't see Cheap shot. Fury of the storm behind Elemental mines (I get the theme but)? I don't like the survival skill tree: Hook and tackle (useless) , Easy to miss being gated, and everything underneath. Easy to miss is something I always take. 

 

The Hunter is the guy with the shotgun setting up traps if this was ME. A lazy fix for the hunter would be to give him rampage and be done.

 

However, I really like the trapping skill tree but would swap Trick of the trade for Fury of the storm. Actually, I'm really liking the trapping skill tree with my only issues being cheap shot missing, and elemental mine gating Fury of the storm.

 

I would do the survival skill tree differently with a whole hunt or be hunted theme. Going down: Straffing shot, Looked like it hurt, Scenting blood, Throatcutter. I would  swap Easy to miss with Bloodied prey.

 

Hook and tackle has several replacements: Knockout powder, Mark of death, Hidden blade, To the death (lol/jk), etc.