31 réponses à ce sujet

[GranfalloonMembr]

I think so. For one thing, in Awakening you have the option of telling potential companions that it could result in their deaths, and they are still onboard.

 

Surely there are other people willing to take the same risk, make the same sacrifices, for one reason or another. It's a big world, and lots of people in it who'll risk death and accept a shortened lifespan and nightmares, because even that is better than their current life. They also might see being a Warden as a way of gaining status and respect, instead of being a nobody.

 

Here are various types of people I can think of who would probably jump at the chance to join the Wardens, even knowing the risks and knowing the consequences:

 

-Mages wanting to leave their Circle (prior to the start of Inquisition);

-As usual, prisoners wanting to be absolved of their crimes, or ones scheduled for execution with nothing to lose;

-People who are going to die of the Blight anyway and whose only chance for survival is the Joining;

-City elves tired of living in alienages and being downtrodden;

-Casteless dwarves, because being casteless in Orzammar is awful;

-For that matter, poor people in general, ones who have nothing to look forward to but more poverty and possibly starving to death.

 

I'm sure there are more.

[Current Future]

Yeah, I can't say I agree with keeping the possible, immediate fatal side-effect of the Joining a secret.  I mean you don't hear about Grey Warden Administrative Assistants, or Quartermasters or Journalists... it should be obvious to you that if you're joining the Wardens, you're going to be in a combat role and your life expectancy likely isn't that long anyway.

 

Yes, there are Grey Warden recruiters, but as we've seen they are expected on the front lines as well.  And in Awakening we see an administrator from the Grey Warden fortress in Weisshaupt, but I don't think she was a Warden, just worked for them.

 

I would think if every candidate knew what they were getting themselves into beforehand, there would be a lot less deaths like Ser Jory's.  On the other hand, you probably would not get that many recruits, especially in non-blight times, knowing they might not survive the joining.  Likely, your only recruits would be those who join to escape the situations listed above, but that appears to be a large percentage of the ones they get anyways!  

 

Just thin, how many Wardens, including recruits, have been volunteers?  And I mean actual volunteers like Ser Jory, or like Ser Gilmore (Noble Origin) wanted to be - those who were in comfortable situations in life, but wanted to serve?

[Illegitimus]

That the process can be fatal is not the secret.  Lots of people know that.  The secret is "You're going to be drinking darkspawn blood (treated with something that might qualify as blood magic) to deliberately taint yourself"  Although really non-idiots can figure that out just from the part where you go out to get yourself some .darkspawn blood.  But that detail gets publicized, the Gray Warden respect and status evaporates.  

[sylvanaerie]

Because it's blood magic, and if the real reason (only a grey warden can kill an Archdemon) gets publicized, that will kill as many potential recruits who have more to live for than the situations listed above.  I don't think if Duncan had been straight up with Jory (a family man in a comfortable situation in Highever) he would have agreed and certainly wouldn't have fought for the 'honor' of being one.  Volunteered to fight them in the cavalry or regular army, yea I could see him doing that, he wasn't a coward about things he could hit with his sword, but the fear engendered by the unknown was too much for him.

 

As for folks like Daveth, I think he would have joined anyway regardless.  He was 'rescued' from a bad situation but aside from that, he had a very 'grey warden' mentality about the whole thing.  He'd have made a fantastic warden except for not being able to handle the taint.

 

In Inquisition (minor DAI spoiler in tag)

Spoiler

we see at least two examples of pro and con about joining the wardens in Blackwall and in a dead rogue who's letter is found on his corpse.

[GranfalloonMembr]

That the process can be fatal is not the secret.  Lots of people know that.  The secret is "You're going to be drinking darkspawn blood (treated with something that might qualify as blood magic) to deliberately taint yourself"  Although really non-idiots can figure that out just from the part where you go out to get yourself some .darkspawn blood.  But that detail gets publicized, the Gray Warden respect and status evaporates.  

 

No, I was not able to figure out that we were getting darkspawn blood so that we could drink it. Why would anybody assume that? In many different games, an NPC tells you to go and get something. Doesn't mean you'll be forced at swordpoint to ingest it.

 

As far as I'm concerned, screw what it would do to the Wardens' reputation; they owe it to their recruits to tell them exactly what they are getting into. They would still have enough recruits to maintain a sizable anti-darkspawn army. And regardless of how distasteful anybody found blood magic, if the whole of Ferelden had a choice between that and being overrun with darkspawn, they'd be fine with the blood magic.

 

In my first playthrough, I was disgusted by how Duncan handled the Jory thing, but after I survived I kind of thought "Okay, the worst is over."

 

Thus it came as an extremely unwelcome surprise when Alistair told me one night "Oh, those nightmares you've been having? Yeah, that's because of the Joining, you can expect to have those for the rest of your life. Which, by the way, won't be very long, thirty years at most. Anyway, Duncan was a great man, wasn't he? I sure miss him."

 

At which point I clicked on "He got what he deserved", because I was legitimately angry despite all of this being fiction and my character not being real.

 

If Duncan had told my mage what she'd be in for after joining the Wardens, and said at the end "But at least you'd be alive and free for a lot longer than you probably will be if you stay here with these templars," I'd have agreed to it. I would have never felt betrayed, and I would never have wound up hating Alistair for talking about how great the Wardens were and how everything was justified in the name of the greater good. 

[GranfalloonMembr]

Because it's blood magic, and if the real reason (only a grey warden can kill an Archdemon) gets publicized, that will kill as many potential recruits who have more to live for than the situations listed above.  I don't think if Duncan had been straight up with Jory (a family man in a comfortable situation in Highever) he would have agreed and certainly wouldn't have fought for the 'honor' of being one.  Volunteered to fight them in the cavalry or regular army, yea I could see him doing that, he wasn't a coward about things he could hit with his sword, but the fear engendered by the unknown was too much for him.

 

As for folks like Daveth, I think he would have joined anyway regardless.  He was 'rescued' from a bad situation but aside from that, he had a very 'grey warden' mentality about the whole thing.  He'd have made a fantastic warden except for not being able to handle the taint.

 

I can totally understand Ser Jory's reaction. It's one thing to ask somebody to fight in an army, but it's quite another to tell them that they have to play high-fantasy Russian roulette first.

 

And yeah, there are LOTS of folks like Daveth, which is my point. If you just take people like that (as the Night's Watch does in Game of Thrones, and they sure aren't understaffed), you'll have a force large enough to fight darkspawn, a force way more than large enough for somebody to kill an archdemon since it just takes one person. And all of those people are most likely going to be 100% loyal to the Wardens for saving them, as opposed to a lot of them feeling like they were cheated by a lying recruiter.

[andy6915]

No, I was not able to figure out that we were getting darkspawn blood so that we could drink it. Why would anybody assume that? In many different games, an NPC tells you to go and get something. Doesn't mean you'll be forced at swordpoint to ingest it.

Then you don't bother to put pieces together in your head. You're told that dogs that bite darkspawn sometimes die and sometimes live, and the ones that live become immune to the taint and can't die from it. And then you're also told that wardens are also immune to the taint, just like the mabari who survive ingesting darkspawn blood through biting. And you're told that wardens somehow sense darkspawn, which means wardens must have some kind of connection to the darkspawn. And then you're told to go carefully collect darkspawn blood into vials... Anyone even bothering to connect the dots can figure it out quite a ways before it's explained by Duncan.

 

Hell, you should even be able to figure out that the taint eventually causes you to become a ghoul even before Alistair tells you thanks to the Ash Warrior in Ostagar, who basically explains what a warden is (except about mabari).

 

"The hunt will be good if my hound survives the blood of his prey. If he dies, I shall mourn tonight. [warden asks what he means] Darkspawn blood is poisonous, but not always fatal. Those who survive grow immune to its effects. The Wardens say the tainted blood drives even the survivors mad eventually… but not today. Today we hunt, and we kill.”

 

 

Well, that fits wardens to a tee. You have to not be paying attention to fail to spot the writing on the walls. And yes, this does mean a mabari should, in theory, be able to kill an archdemon like a warden can since it's basically a grey warden mabari. Funny how that loophole wasn't an option in place of the dark ritual as some kind of hidden ending . Well... I suppose the extra magical stuff they do with the blood is why that works for wardens but not taint-immune mabari.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Then you don't bother to put pieces together in your head. Your told that dogs that bite darkspawn sometimes die and sometimes live, and the ones that live become immune to the taint and can't die from it. And then you're also told that wardens are also immune to the taint, just like the mabari who survive ingesting darkspawn blood through biting. And you're told that wardens somehow sense darkspawn, which means wardens must have some kind of connection to the darkspawn. And then you're told to go carefully collect darkspawn blood into vials... Anyone even bothering to connect the dots can figure it out quite a ways before it's explained by Duncan.

 

Well, thanks for basically calling me stupid, first of all.

 

Second, you ever hear of throwaway dialogue? Because that's what I took at lot of it as.

 

I heard about the mabari and instead of thinking "This is going to be important later! This is a piece to a puzzle!" I thought, "Oh, those poor mabari."

 

Just like how, if I'm playing Mass Effect 2 and I overhear a salarian talking about how his asari wife and their daughter are going to outlive him, I don't think "This is goign to be important later! This is a piece to a puzzle!" I think "Man, that kind of sucks."

 

EDIT TO ADD: Look, I know that I'm playing a game which involves solving mysteries from time to time, but it doesn't always. Sometimes I'm in mystery-solving mode and sometimes I'm just in "look around and explore" mode.

 

When I was dealing with Zathrian later on in the game, I definitely got the sense that there was more going on than I was being told, so I was looking for clues to try and help me figure out the whole story.

 

When I was in Ostagar, on the other hand, I was just looking around and exploring. I was thinking "I'll get to know these other Grey Wardens a bit, buy some equipment, sell some crappier equipment I don't need any more, maybe grab a few quests."

[andy6915]

Well, thanks for basically calling me stupid, first of all.

 

Second, you ever hear of throwaway dialogue? Because that's what I took at lot of it as.

 

I heard about the mabari and instead of thinking "This is going to be important later! This is a piece to a puzzle!" I thought, "Oh, those poor mabari."

 

Just like how, if I'm playing Mass Effect 2 and I overhear a salarian talking about how his asari wife and their daughter are going to outlive him, I don't think "This is goign to be important later! This is a piece to a puzzle!" I think "Man, that kind of sucks."

 

EDIT TO ADD: Look, I know that I'm playing a game which involves solving mysteries from time to time, but it doesn't always. Sometimes I'm in mystery-solving mode and sometimes I'm just in "look around and explore" mode.

 

When I was dealing with Zathrian later on in the game, I definitely got the sense that there was more going on than I was being told, so I was looking for clues to try and help me figure out the whole story.

 

When I was in Ostagar, on the other hand, I was just looking around and exploring. I was thinking "I'll get to know these other Grey Wardens a bit, buy some equipment, sell some crappier equipment I don't need any more, maybe grab a few quests."

 

So in short, you didn't actually pay attention because you assumed that the dialogue was just pointless info that you could allow your eyes to glaze over about. I would think, the moment you hear that mabari that drink darkspawn blood can survive it and become immune and grey wardens being immune to darkspawn blood and have some deadly ritual that includes collecting darkspawn blood to get an instant "hmm" response. Remember what Flemeth said, "be always aware". You can't just assume something is fluff dialogue, sometimes connections can be very obvious if you simply pay attention.

 

And I didn't call you stupid, I insinuated that simply go along with things without questioning or wondering. One is a lack of intelligence, the other is lazy. I more or less called you the latter.

[andy6915]

By the way, the salarian comparison doesn't work. In Ostagar, there's question from both the other recruits about what the joining is. You can even ask Alistair about it, though he refuses to answer. There was a mystery about the joining and what it entailed, mystery the game directly confronts you about. There was a reason to try to connect the pieces, the reason being that the game was practically trying to make you question and figure it out. It wasn't arbitrary, the game wanted you to try to wonder and question what the joining was and what it entailed. With the salarian thing, there is indeed no reason to care beyond "the feels". But with the joining, it's brought up a lot and with purpose. That purpose being to get the gears in your head spinning and make you wonder about it, and they put enough dialogue in to figure it out without much trouble. So you're wrong, there was in fact good cause to pay attention to anything related to the taint that was mentioned at Ostagar.

[Qun00]

I know it inevitably would cause this reaction, but there is no reason for a "omg blood magic" uproar.

These guys aren't making deals with demons or performing human sacrifices.

[andy6915]

I know it inevitably would cause this reaction, but there is no reason for a "omg blood magic" uproar.

These guys aren't making deals with demons or performing human sacrifices.

Do the people of Thedas make that distinction? Seems to me like it being blood magic in principle is what people react to, they don't care how it's used. It's like child molestation on 12 year old instead of a 9 year old to the people of Thedas, they don't care about the specifics because both are equally horrible to them. I personally agree that there is a distinction between the joining and blood sacrificing people, but were talking about Thedas people who are often quite stupid and reactionary when it comes to magic.

[Illegitimus]

 

No, I was not able to figure out that we were getting darkspawn blood so that we could drink it. Why would anybody assume that? In many different games, an NPC tells you to go and get something. Doesn't mean you'll be forced at swordpoint to ingest it.

 

 

Well you didn't think of it, but it sounds less like you couldn't answer the question, than that you didn't bother to ask it.  

[GranfalloonMembr]

Do the people of Thedas make that distinction? Seems to me like it being blood magic in principle is what people react to, they don't care how it's used. It's like child molestation on 12 year old instead of a 9 year old to the people of Thedas, they don't care about the specifics because both are equally horrible to them. I personally agree that there is a distinction between the joining and blood sacrificing people, but were talking about Thedas people who are often quite stupid and reactionary when it comes to magic.

 

The answer is teaching them not to be, as I recently told someone in the third game. By the time Origins is over, your small party has accomplished a hell of a lot: you've chosen the new rulers for two kingdoms, earned the gratitude of a number of nobles and of everybody in Redcliffe and Denerim, and if you survive are honoured in a big ceremony where you get to ask a favour of the new king or queen.

 

The first time I did this, it was as an elven mage. Considering the legendary status that the Hero of Ferelden gains, I'd think that it would make lots of people reconsider their negative beliefs about magic and about elves.

 

If one person, with help from some friends, can accomplish that much, think of what many people working together could accomplish.

 

Anyway, it's been something like 3 years since I last played the first game, so I don't remember exactly how many hints were dropped and how subtle or blatant they were. But you say that one of them is that Alistair won't tell you--sometimes, in games like this, if somebody doesn't tell you something you just have to resign yourself to finding out later on. Which, as best as I can recall, is what I did.

 

I'll YouTube that mabari dialogue...hang on...

 

All right, here's what he talks about, in this order:

 

-Asks you to muzzle the mabari who swallowed darkspawn blood in a fight and is sick;

-Mentions that Wardens are immune to the taint;

-Asks you to get a flower in the wilds for him, which will hopefully improve the dog's condition;

-There are lots of dialogue choices here, but when you ask if the hound will be all right without the flower, he tells you that it'll probably need to be put down;

-The person who uploaded it didn't ask everything, like they left "Do you think I have nothing better to do?" unasked, probably because they didn't want to play the character as a ******.

 

The kennel master didn't say anything to this particular player about mabari surviving and becoming immune to the taint. Maybe another NPC did, but the LP I found is very long and I'm not gonna bother to watch all of Ostagar looking for the relevant dialogue.

 

Before I found that video, though, I found another, short video showing the resolution of that quest. You bring the flower back to the kennel master, and all he does is thank you and ask you if 20 silver will be enough for your trouble.

 

This is something that would be clearer on subsequent playthroughs, what TV Tropes calls a Rewatch Bonus. But the first time? Not really, not for everybody, and I think part of the reason is that a lot of people don't even consider the idea that you'll have to drink this stuff which you have been hearing is ultra-deadly. It just seems too crazy.

[sylvanaerie]

I think the mabari conversation Andy is referencing is the one you have with the Chasind...Ash Warrior(?), the guy with the dogs who have the warpaint.  Greg Ellis (Cullen) voices him.

[andy6915]

I think the mabari conversation Andy is referencing is the one you have with the Chasind...Ash Warrior(?), the guy with the dogs who have the warpaint.  Greg Ellis (Cullen) voices him.

 

Not chasind, but yes. The person who is a human berserker, with painted mabari, who fight alongside them which includes dogs biting darkspawn.

[Aren]

My PC was very devoted it was his destiny,a complete GW there was no problem for me in being a GW i asked at Highever to Duncan to recruit me without the consent of my father.

Pay the price for killing an AD was not a problem at all(apparently is a huge problem for most player here) if Loghain would have failed My Warden would have immediately killed the dragon after him.

[sylvanaerie]

 

My PC was very devoted it was his destiny,a complete GW there was no problem for me in being a GW i asked at Highever to Duncan to recruit me without the consent of my father.

Pay the price for killing an AD was not a problem at all(apparently is a huge problem for most player here) if Loghain would have failed My Warden would have immediately killed the dragon after him.

 

Thank you for the huge laugh, I was having a pretty crappy day till I saw this post.  

 

"Devoted" doesn't describe a warden who insists on sending another man to take the killing blow, only stepping up to the plate on the off chance that the other man dies before the task is done.  Quite obviously "paying the price" is a problem for your warden or his first thought would be to kill the archdemon himself, and it appears you are one of those players you talk about in your post to whom it is 'a huge problem' as well since you have posted in nearly every thread that even peripherally discusses the ending, the DR, Morrigan, or Loghain that using Loghain to kill the archdemon is the only solution that you like since it means your warden gets to live and you don't have to give Morrigan a child.

 

As I've said before, while I prefer the DR, I'll go US if my warden doesn't trust Morrigan enough to give her the child or is one of those gung ho wardens who follows that whole 'in death, sacrifice' stuff.  I'll never send another person to do what I wouldn't do--if that's possible--myself.

[Illegitimus]

The answer is teaching them not to be, as I recently told someone in the third game. By the time Origins is over, your small party has accomplished a hell of a lot: you've chosen the new rulers for two kingdoms, earned the gratitude of a number of nobles and of everybody in Redcliffe and Denerim, and if you survive are honoured in a big ceremony where you get to ask a favour of the new king or queen.

 

 

 

Teaching them not to have a knee jerk reaction to anything close to blood magic and the taint?  Even if you can do that (and more likely if they knew it all they'd regard you with a mixture of reluctant gratitude and dread and the gratitude would fade faster than the disgust and dread), it might not be a good idea.  

[GranfalloonMembr]

Okay, earlier today I was thinking about it and came up with the idea of doing things the following way. It wouldn't surprise me if other people had had this idea and posted it here before, though.

 

Here's what you tell recruits:

 

WARDEN RECRUITER: "Okay, listen up, because this is important. If you haven't heard already, Grey Wardens can fight darkspawn and won't get infected with the Blight as the result of being wounded or anything like that. Something that you likely haven't heard is that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can permanently kill an archdemon and end a Blight: if anybody else kills an archdemon, it comes back to life.

 

"Grey Wardens also have the ability to sense darkspawn when they're around, which comes in handy if your job is to fight them. With me so far? Because I'm about to tell you the cost of all of this.

 

"Okay, in order to gain these abilities and immunity to the Blight, you need to drink this concoction we're going to give you. It may or may not kill you in a matter of seconds."

 

WARDEN RECRUIT: "What's in this stuff?"

 

WARDEN RECRUITER: "It's an ancient Grey Warden recipe and you have to be a Warden for me to tell you the ingredients. But if you live, you get that Blight-immunity and all the rest. However! Even if you survive, you will be looking at a shortened lifespan, with thirty years more of life at most. You will also frequently have terrible nightmares. That may not sound so bad, but I wouldn't bring it up if they weren't really terrible. Nothing you can't get used to, but not pleasant.

 

"So if you want to back out, if you think that you would prefer your life before this to being a Grey Warden--even if you have nothing to look forward to but being hanged as a criminal--then now is the time."

 

That's the solution: tell them everything except what, exactly, they are drinking. It would mean that these recruits don't fetch their own darkspawn blood, but that shouldn't matter; nobody in Awakening had to fetch their own darkspawn blood either.

 

It's possible that a recruit who backs out might suspect that an ingredient was darkspawn blood and/or that blood magic was involved, but they wouldn't know enough to prove anything, and anything they told outsiders would be taken as rumours or speculation.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Thank you for the huge laugh, I was having a pretty crappy day till I saw this post.  

 

"Devoted" doesn't describe a warden who insists on sending another man to take the killing blow, only stepping up to the plate on the off chance that the other man dies before the task is done.  Quite obviously "paying the price" is a problem for your warden or his first thought would be to kill the archdemon himself, and it appears you are one of those players you talk about in your post to whom it is 'a huge problem' as well since you have posted in nearly every thread that even peripherally discusses the ending, the DR, Morrigan, or Loghain that using Loghain to kill the archdemon is the only solution that you like since it means your warden gets to live and you don't have to give Morrigan a child.

 

As I've said before, while I prefer the DR, I'll go US if my warden doesn't trust Morrigan enough to give her the child or is one of those gung ho wardens who follows that whole 'in death, sacrifice' stuff.  I'll never send another person to do what I wouldn't do--if that's possible--myself.

 

A lot of what he or she says is laugh-worthy. Every post I've seen from Aren so far has said (in very bad English) "Well, you shouldn't hesitate at all to be a GW and sacrifice everything you care about. If you are the least bit upset about how your life went off the rails, how you have seen and fought stuff straight out of nightmares, or how you might be called upon to kill yourself, then you are a selfish whining jerk who doesn't care about anybody else."

 

And yes, it is hypocritical to send Loghain in, even if he volunteers for it. (I did the DR in both games, either having Loghain go to bed with Morrigan or doing it myself, so I don't know exactly how insistent Loghain is on being the one to strike the killing blow. This is a depressing and disturbing game, and having the protagonist die at the end would make it even moreso. I was offered a happy ending instead of a bittersweet one, and I took it.)

 

Origins makes players examine the idea of conscription. The United States currently has an all-volunteer army (although if you do join, they try to keep you in as long as possible, sometimes in rather underhanded ways), but they used to conscript soldiers in various wars: WWII, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

 

Now if you go and watch a movie or tv show (e.g. M*A*S*H) about one of those wars, you will probably see soldiers complaining or frustrated about how they wish they weren't in a war zone. They don't want to be there. They would much rather be at home. It's not like they are thinking about deserting or anything; they'll still do their duty. But it's no fun, and talking about how it's no fun is a good way to let off steam, to cope.

 

I have never been in a real life war zone as a combatant or otherwise, but I am sure that's how real soldiers act if they've been drafted. Soldiers--human beings--resent having their freedom to choose taken away. They want to feel in control of their lives. They don't want to worry about how they might get killed or crippled before the fighting ends.

 

This is something that Aren does not seem to understand. Asking somebody who values their life to sacrifice it is no trivial request. It is asking them to give up everything they care about.

 

Don't get me wrong: I believe people who are willing to sacrifice themselves in order to save other people are very heroic. I admire people who are brave enough to do that. But I also believe that it is wrong to force somebody to make that sacrifice, or to trick them into making it, which is what the GW do in Origins.

[Qun00]

It's just like when someone calls the reaver's abilities blood magic.

Alright, maybe it is in some sense but they don't use a person's blood so why care?

I'd say the fate of the grey wardens is a far greater issue than the Joining itself.