45 réponses à ce sujet

[pdusen]

I think using the word "cinematic" is misleading when for the most part it was basically the same as the static view, just more zoomed in.

[Xetykins]

Guys, I think they are deffo taking this seriously. I have not played The Descent, but it seems like that there are some nice cinematic action going on there. And by the Trespasser trailer, it looks to be story heavy.

[Wolven_Soul]

When was the side content, ultimately, not dull? DA:O's side content was often fetch-quests or kill quests. There was just more actual conversation with NPCs e.g. Sten's and Morrigan's companion quests were fetch quests (find the sword/tome). Really, Wynne's wasn't that far apart (fetch her former apprentice). But where this stuff happened, Bioware either had some clever trick to make it feel less awful (e.g. Sten's goose chase had some really fun dialogue if you brought Sten along), and even when they used this stuff for the main quest (e.g. find Ruck) had some interesting twists. 

 

Ultimately the quests themselves - and their design - wasn't good, even in DA:O and DA2. But they had better use of dialogue. 

The problem is that Bioware sucks at quest design. That's the first thing they need to fix, not just adding in more conversations. 

 

Morrigans was more than just getting the book, it didn't end there.  It led to a fight with a dragon.  Also, there might still be fetch/kill quests in DA:O, but there were still other side content that was pretty good.  Such as Ruck, (which was not part of the main quest), the alienage orphanage, and Leliana's companion quest with Marjolaine.

[CronoDragoon]

I think using the word "cinematic" is misleading when for the most part it was basically the same as the static view, just more zoomed in.

 

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across by describing this as the middle ground. It's not a "cinematic scene" so to speak, but the cut to a closer angle simulates the same feeling.

[FKA_Servo]

Guys, I think they are deffo taking this seriously. I have not played The Descent, but it seems like that there are some nice cinematic action going on there. And by the Trespasser trailer, it looks to be story heavy.

 

Descent has one of the single most screen shottable (not a word, but roll widit) cinematic moments in the whole game - the encounter with the King Nug.

 

Every inquisitor looks like a total BAMF there.

[Rappeldrache]

http://www.nexusmods...tion/mods/313/?

 

You mean: Like this?

[hoechlbear]

Zooming in on the NPCs' faces doesn't work. At least for me. Because the problem is that every NPC uses the same animations for all conversations, so they don't show unique reactions to what is being said. You may be having a conversation with an upset widow but you don't see that, because she's just standing in front of you with a neutral face and doing out of place gestures that don't match to what she's saying. It has to be cutscenes specially created for each conversation, only then you will get that feeling that you are talking to actual people and not cardboard cutouts.

 

To me cinematics are like the whole sequence of the battle at Ostagar, it's those cutscenes that look like a scene from a movie, it has more attention to detail, more camera work. But every time you talked to a companion in DAO, you got a cutscene, they were static (focused only on the characters' faces) but they showed the right emotions, they reacted to what was being said. That doesn't happen in DAI's conversations (the ones outside cutscenes). That is my number one problem with this new approach, characters need to show emotions when I'm interacting with them otherwise I'm going to have a hard time connecting to those characters and feel something towards them.

 

So yes, in my opinion, cutscenes during conversations need to come back.

[pdusen]

Zooming in on the NPCs' faces doesn't work. At least for me. Because the problem is that every NPC uses the same animations for all conversations, so they don't show unique reactions to what is being said. You may be having a conversation with an upset widow but you don't see that, because she's just standing in front of you with a neutral face and doing out of place gestures that don't match to what she's saying. It has to be cutscenes specially created for each conversation, only then you will get that feeling that you are talking to actual people and not cardboard cutouts.
 
To me cinematics are like the whole sequence of the battle at Ostagar, it's those cutscenes that look like a scene from a movie, it has more attention to detail, more camera work. But every time you talked to a companion in DAO, you got a cutscene, they were static (focused only on the characters' faces) but they showed the right emotions, they reacted to what was being said. That doesn't happen in DAI's conversations (the ones outside cutscenes). That is my number one problem with this new approach, characters need to show emotions when I'm interacting with them otherwise I'm going to have a hard time connecting to those characters and feel something towards them.
 
So yes, in my opinion, cutscenes during conversations need to come back.

I'm sorry, but you're drastically overstating how much expression NPCs had in your typical conversation in DA:O. Their faces were almost invariably static, with the exception of a few stock expressions that were used, and nearly all of their movements were stock as well.

The only serious difference in DA:I is the camera itself. Don't get me wrong, if you want the camera changed and more expression added then that's a valid opinion, but let's not pretend conversations in DAO were more than they were.

[Akrabra]

Have to agree with Pdusen. What saved the conversations in DA:O was great voiceacting, nuances and subtlety to their performance. It can sell even the most static npc. I feel like DA:I is in the same boat actually, not often i didn't feel connected to what was happening and the people in the world. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Yep, I really miss the zoom-ins for conversations.  Not just for quest-givers, but for *every* companion conversation. 

 

And I really liked seeing my Hawke up-close in DA2 when the camera switched to him *during every singe conversation* when it was time to choose dialogue options.

 

When I spend an hour and a half in the CC, I'd like to see my character up close more frequently than I did in DA:I. 

[hoechlbear]

I'm sorry, but you're drastically overstating how much expression NPCs had in your typical conversation in DA:O. Their faces were almost invariably static, with the exception of a few stock expressions that were used, and nearly all of their movements were stock as well.

The only serious difference in DA:I is the camera itself. Don't get me wrong, if you want the camera changed and more expression added then that's a valid opinion, but let's not pretend conversations in DAO were more than they were.

 

Not really. I remember Alistair and Morrigan having different facial expressions as they talked to my warden about certain matters. Obviously when they are just explaining stuff (like Alistair talking about the Grey Wardens), there isn't many facial expressions required for those moments. But let's take this for example:

 

 

I see a lot of facial expressions there. Sometimes some may be subtle but they are there. In DAI their faces are completely static, the only thing that moves is their mouths. In Bull's case, he's a complete statue when you talk to him in Skyhold.

 

And NPCs who are supposed to be sad/angry/etc. are just standing there looking at you with complete blank and neutral faces. There's a glaring difference to me. If you can't see it, then well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

I don't think I need to link you to a sidequest in DAO where NPCs show emotions in a believable way. But let me know.

[pdusen]

Not really. I remember Alistair and Morrigan having different facial expressions as they talked to my warden about certain matters. Obviously when they are just explaining stuff (like Alistair talking about the Grey Wardens), there isn't many facial expressions required for those moments. But let's take this for example:

https://www.youtube....h?v=cKjqCVad4Gk

I see a lot of facial expressions there. Sometimes some may be subtle but they are there. In DAI their faces are completely static, the only thing that moves is their mouths. In Bull's case, he's a complete statue when you talk to him in Skyhold.

And NPCs who are supposed to be sad/angry/etc. are just standing there looking at you with complete blank and neutral faces. There's a glaring difference to me. If you can't see it, then well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

https://www.youtube....h?v=LbJ4kIgwCVI

I don't think I need to link you to a sidequest in DAO where NPCs show emotions in a believable way. But let me know.

Alistair is using facial expressions in that clip, perhaps even to great effect, but its the same handful of stock expressions you see repeatedly throughout the game. There's really nothing special or handcrafted about it.

[Xetykins]

Considering the light years difference between the engines, I think DAO did the companions cutscenes just great. And the fact alone that they made the effort is a major plus.

Just.... don't look at Leli's singing animation because that was really bad.

[Wolven_Soul]

Considering the light years difference between the engines, I think DAO did the companions cutscenes just great. And the fact alone that they made the effort is a major plus.

Just.... don't look at Leli's singing animation because that was really bad.

 

Lol, yeah, it really was.  Though some of the companions reactions to it were alright.

[Akrabra]

Considering the light years difference between the engines, I think DAO did the companions cutscenes just great. And the fact alone that they made the effort is a major plus.

Just.... don't look at Leli's singing animation because that was really bad.

Yeah i usually just close my eyes and listen to the music, because its abit awkward to watch. I think Sten and dog likes it though.

[hoechlbear]

Alistair is using facial expressions in that clip, perhaps even to great effect, but its the same handful of stock expressions you see repeatedly throughout the game. There's really nothing special or handcrafted about it. 

 

At least it's something. I'll take repeated facial expressions over no facial expressions whatsoever. I never said DAO's animations were something magnificent or out of this world, I don't know where you got that idea from. I just said that companions and NPCs reacted to what my warden was saying to them. If they were sad, angry, happy, etc. I would see it in their faces. In DAI (outside of cutscenes) I don't see it because they have no facial expressions.

[pdusen]

At least it's something. I'll take repeated facial expressions over no facial expressions whatsoever. I never said DAO's animations were something magnificent or out of this world, I don't know where you got that idea from. I just said that companions and NPCs reacted to what my warden was saying to them. If they were sad, angry, happy, etc. I would see it in their faces. In DAI (outside of cutscenes) I don't see it because they have no facial expressions.

I have no problem with any of that. I did feel that facial expressiveness could use more work, even in cutscenes.

I just oppose any perceived attempt to put DAO on a pedestal that it doesn't deserve. No harm done.

[Annos Basin]

Until recently, I'm generally indifferent to them - that's the cost effective way, yeah, but the combination of all those reused animations, combined with the dead-eyed Bioware faces and the fact that excessive cutscenes are just jarring to me. I didn't miss them, for sure.

 

Now that they're able to model characters that actually emote (DAI does this very well, surprisingly) I wouldn't mind it at all. The emotion conveyed in some of DAI's cutscenes are marvelous.

I would take reused lazyfaces over the eavesdrop view, as long as it means the feeling of an eye contact and being personally involved. Otherwise my character starts to feel kinda distant to me, or like they stare at their shoes and ceiling and everything but the other person. You commented about some people getting easily distracted, and I kinda have to admit being that sort, in this case at least. Though I noticed it during DAI, and prevented it from bothering me anymore by doodling or stretching during longer conversations, thinking of it like listening to radio. Usually dialogues are my fave part, I love to read or listen to them or watch them acted. There's not much to see if a scene remains in the same angle for several minutes. I would just read the text, but interrupting voice acting constantly doesn't help the scene either - shame to mostly skip it since it's there.

 

The weird over-reaction to it was baffling for a while, but I wonder if it's not as much about the angles as it is the lack of custom animations; I remember RPGs where all characters (if they were animated at all) just cycled through two frames endlessly, but kids today expect more, at least from western RPGs.  A lot of JRPGs and visual novels can still get away with static character pictures and scrolling text..

The still portraits in jrpgs and visual novels still deliver sense of eye contact (and lack of eye contact in too dire situations). Font is bigger than in DA2 or DAI, and it's composed to be the main focus so you can settle your wandering eyes there even in case of no portraits at all. Many games don't have voice acting except during key scenes, so you get to pace the text scroll yourself (aside from certain really old games, like Xenogears if I remember correctly, where the slow text is major annoyance for players). Silent games and visual novels and such seems old fashioned, but eventually start to feel like the most natural way to tell a story if the story and dialogue are captivating enough.

 

 

The fight with the broodmother would not have been nearly so freaky and great if we had just walked into the room and started duking it out.  I remember the feeling of tension I had in that moment.  Hearing the dwarven girl's creepy rhyme, watching my character walk around that corner and there she is in all her disgusting glory.  That was a fantastic moment.

DAO though good wasn't my fave DA... And opinions can and should be only personal. However broodmother always works as a good example of how suspense and thriller storytelling and a boss who motivates to fight for your life can be done. Well I haven't heard anyone disagreeing with that so far. It's rather horrible but, ugh, it is fantastic moment.

 

 

There is some backlash against "cinematic" storytelling among gamers but I think it stems more or less from Metal Gear Solid series where a cutscene may last over an hour, and player hardly has anything to say about how the protagonists can react. (I think so... I lurk some but not empirically. At least MGS4 deserves some ranting on that. Though most conversations are held via codec calls, where you get the eye contact portraits btw, and I love those moments.) In Bioware games cinematic feeling during dialogue has been a strength. Great voice acting backs it up, and pacing on how often you can participate has been usually nice. I don't know how necessary those closeups and angles have been, but they feel like luxury. If they will be cut down again, in case they don't matter that much to most players, I'd wish placement of the captions are readjusted, and less personal parts of the conversations are told in codex, after you've approached a character and asked about something.

 

 

(Edited again, because this english is such hard language. Please.)

Modifié par Annos Basin, 07 septembre 2015 - 08:10 .

[Wolven_Soul]

I

 

 

There is some backlash against "cinematic" storytelling among gamers but I think it stems more or less from Metal Gear Solid series where a cutscene may last over an hour, and player hardly has anything to say about how the protagonists can react. (I think so... I lurk some but not empirically. At least MGS4 deserves some ranting on that. Though most conversations are held via codec calls, where you get the eye contact portraits btw, and I love those moments.) In Bioware games cinematic feeling during dialogue has been a strength. Great voice acting backs it up, and pacing on how often you can participate has been usually nice. I don't know how necessary those closeups and angles have been, but they feel like luxury. If they will be cut down again, in case they don't matter that much to most players, I'd wish placement of the captions are readjusted, and less personal parts of the conversations are told in codex, after you've approached a character and asked about something.

 

 

(Edited again, because this english is such hard language. Please.)

 

Yeah, I like my cutscenes, but I don't like them to be over done.  Some Final Fantasy games were guilty of this as well.  

[thewatcheruatu]

I'm not putting DA:O on a pedestal--I know it's limitations. But I just completed a full playthrough last night and felt waaaay more connected to the world and the characters within it because BioWare took the time to employ cinematic techniques during conversations. Yes, they're mostly static, and there isn't much that can compare with the care BW showed in composing, say, your initial conversation with Cassandra out in the Haven training yard, or your conversation with Cullen when you can talk him out of giving into his lyrium addiction. But because they at least put some effort into every single conversation, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

The frustrating thing about Inquisition is that when they did employ cinematic conversations, they worked really well. Additionally, the facial expressions (like the half smile/half smirk on the Inquisitior's face when teasing Cassandra about her reading habits) are really good this time around. So it's just sad they opted to stuff the game with so much filler that didn't benefit from these sorts of hand-crafted conversations.