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[Korva]

Time travel is utter BS and one reason why I will always vastly prefer CotJ. But I have to agree with Heimdall to a degree because that little hate-fest of a room is really blatant, which clashes badly with the need for secrecy that Envy-as-Lucius operates under. It is behind a locked door, but still. Like the death of the Knight-Valiant, it is a rather careless thing to do for an otherwise shrewd creature. And hell, what about the MASSIVE spikes of red lyrium just lying around? A bit more subtlety would have preserved the atmosphere of the mission better.

 

(For a moment I thought maybe Cole was talking about Envy, since the demon and not Corypheus created that display ... and it would make sense for Envy to be, well, obsessively envious of such a powerful ruler. Especially if he isn't allowed to "become" her next. But Cole always refers to the demon as "it" and not "he".)

[Catche Jagger]

I have a question. Just spitballing here, but why didn't Florienne just have the whole ball act as one giant death trap? She has virtually all of the leadership of Orlais at an event that she's hosting. There are a bunch of Venatori/Red Templar agents wandering around, but they honestly serve no purpose than to provide combat to brake up the investigation elements of the quest. Just massacring everyone seems like a much more straightforward plan.

Even more confusingly, why does she want to kill Celene herself? Why couldn't she have literally anyone else do it? Perhaps she could have had some handmaiden or a Venatori/Red Templar agent in disguise kill Celene while she fled the party in secret? It is completely ridiculous for her to perform the assassination herself.

[FiveThreeTen]

Well between Erimond and Florianne, Corypheus seems to love to recruit stupid evil vilains. It's a shame they were both better developed in Wot2 than in the actual game.

[Shienis]

(For a moment I thought maybe Cole was talking about Envy, since the demon and not Corypheus created that display ... and it would make sense for Envy to be, well, obsessively envious of such a powerful ruler. Especially if he isn't allowed to "become" her next. But Cole always refers to the demon as "it" and not "he".)

 

But during the Champions Cole doesn't even know about Cory, so I still think he's referring to Envy and someone just didn't pay enough attention for pronouns...

[Catche Jagger]

I think she wanted the glory and to then tell everyone she and Corypheus were a team so they would bow to her in fear. If you let Celene die, she is quite proud of it and then runs away like a coward when the Inquisitor shows up to stop her, realizing he/she survived her trap.

But wouldn't it be an even greater reveal after Corypheus came into power? Was one of the biggest players in the Game too petty and impatient to let someone else temporarily take credit for her plot?

[Catche Jagger]

Well between Erimond and Florianne, Corypheus seems to love to recruit stupid evil vilains. It's a shame they were both better developed in Wot2 than in the actual game.

Well Erimond just came across as a slimy, cowardly guy. Not the deepest character, but believeable. The problem with Florienne is that it makes no sense for someone in her position to make such ridiculous choices.

[FiveThreeTen]

Well Erimond just came across as a slimy, cowardly guy. Not the deepest character, but believeable. The problem with Florienne is that it makes no sense for someone in her position to make such ridiculous choices.

That's the thing, how he comes across in game is a bit too cartoony for my taste. In his codex entry, we are given hints that Erimond is a devoted Tevinter nationalist. His entry in WoT2 gives more details on his political views. That could have given us a more interesting and nuanced antagonist.

 

Even after reading Florianne's Wot2 entry the only motivation I can find for her action is her bitterness as being always overlooked and ignored all her life. But she still had a respected position so yeah...

[Catche Jagger]

That's the thing, how he comes across in game is a bit too cartoony for my taste. In his codex entry, we are given hints that Erimond is a devoted Tevinter nationalist. His entry in WoT2 gives more details on his political views. That could have given us a more interesting and nuanced antagonist.

Even after reading Florianne's Wot2 entry the only motivation I can find for her action is her bitterness as being always overlooked and ignored all her life. But she still had a respected position so yeah...

Well, despite being cartoony, Erimond at least followed some form of logic.

An inferiority complex could justify Florienne's decision to join with Corypheus, but it doesn't explain her overwhelming idiocy.

[Korva]

But during the Champions Cole doesn't even know about Cory, so I still think he's referring to Envy and someone just didn't pay enough attention for pronouns...

 

Could be. I had the impression that Cole only stumbled into Therinfal a short while before we did and was still trying to come to grips with what he felt there ... his desire to help would have made him act sooner rather than later, Herald or no Herald. Still, by the time we reach that room, Envy has already revealed that it works for "the Elder One". And Cole can read Envy, so what he says in that room could be based on what he felt from the demon -- you're right that he could not have had any first-hand knowledge of Corypheus at that point.

 

So many questions ... speculations can be fun.

 

 

I have a question. Just spitballing here, but why didn't Florienne just have the whole ball act as one giant death trap?

 

Maybe she wanted to preserve SOME veneer of legitimacy (or what passes for it by the dubious standards of "the Game")? Murdering a rival is business as usual, murdering a bunch of knife-ear servants does not even merit mentioning. Openly relying on a foreign force to slaughter all and sunder on the other hand only leaves you in charge of a pile of rubble, with no one to gloat over, and with less of an illusion of being firmly in charge. Florianne didn't strike me as a zealot but as someone who saw the Corypheus-is-my-god spiel primarily as a way to personal power, someone who wanted to keep "playing the Game" as she knows it, just from the very top this time, instead of knocking the board over and declaring herself the winner that way.

[Catche Jagger]

Maybe she wanted to preserve SOME veneer of legitimacy (or what passes for it by the dubious standards of "the Game")? Murdering a rival is business as usual, murdering a bunch of knife-ear servants does not even merit mentioning. Openly relying on a foreign force to slaughter all and sunder on the other hand only leaves you in charge of a pile of rubble, with no one to gloat over, and with less of an illusion of being firmly in charge. Florianne didn't strike me as a zealot but as someone who saw the Corypheus-is-my-god spiel primarily as a way to personal power, someone who wanted to keep "playing the Game" as she knows it, just from the very top this time, instead of knocking the board over and declaring herself the winner that way.

Eh, I don't know about that. She was counting on Corypheus coming into power and appointing her as the new ruler. That would still entail a foreign force overthrowing the current regime. For her plan to still be following the Game while the alternative that I brought up would be going too far seems more than a bit ridiculous. Both ways, she bypasses the political systems in place in order to attain power. One is simply more direct.

And this still doesn't explain why she was so stupid as to perform the assassination herself.

[General TSAR]

Something something chaos, something something power vacuum, something something civil war.

 

That's pretty much what I got out of it. 

[TEWR]

Well between Erimond and Florianne, Corypheus seems to love to recruit stupid evil vilains. It's a shame they were both better developed in Wot2 than in the actual game.

 

What does WoT2 say?

 

And I still wish Erimond and Florianne had been in cahoots with one another and the Warden and Orlais arcs tied into one another, rather then -- as you said -- getting a bunch of stupid evil villains who reveal their hand when they are asked a question.

 

which yeah isn't exactly restricted to just Inquisition in it being done with villains, but it's stupid. In fact, it's literally a trope. Bond Villain Stupidity. AND I HATE IT.

[Korva]

Eh, I don't know about that. She was counting on Corypheus coming into power and appointing her as the new ruler. That would still entail a foreign force overthrowing the current regime. For her plan to still be following the Game while the alternative that I brought up would be going too far seems more than a bit ridiculous. Both ways, she bypasses the political systems in place in order to attain power. One is simply more direct.

 

Appearances, I'd say. They matter a lot in politics. There is a difference between being openly seen as being wholly dependent on a foreign power, and seemingly seizing power by yourself and then "allying" with that foreign power. I do agree that even Orlais would see her as going too far either way (not because of the murder and betrayals or even the blasphemy, but because of selling out to Tevinter), but being less blatant about it looks more "legitimate". Plus like many such nobles she probably wants the ego boost of having someone to lord her victory over. Gloating at corpses isn't very satisfying, and they are bad at kissing up to you.

 

And this still doesn't explain why she was so stupid as to perform the assassination herself.

 

To be honest, that didn't feel half as stupid as revealing herself and her plans in the Royal Quarters did. Now that is a textbook Evil Stupid stereotypical doomed-to-fail villain move. I could see her making the kill herself as -- again -- wanting to be or at least look like the one in absolute control. But ratting herself out as she does? No excuse for that.

[FiveThreeTen]

What does WoT2 say?

 

And I still wish Erimond and Florianne had been in cahoots with one another and the Warden and Orlais arcs tied into one another, rather then -- as you said -- getting a bunch of stupid evil villains who reveal their hand when they are asked a question.

 

which yeah isn't exactly restricted to just Inquisition in it being done with villains, but it's stupid. In fact, it's literally a trope. Bond Villain Stupidity. AND I HATE IT.

Be grateful (no I kid). I'm @ work, bored and currently not surrounded, I'll delete if it's not ok to quote (at least it's not like copy pasted from my kindle account so it's ok I guess?):

 

Erimond entry:

Spoiler

The firstborn son of a magister, Livius Erimond enjoyed every advantage that upper-class Tevinter society could offer. Her received instruction from the finest tutors and, thanks to the leniency of his parents, was able to pursue personal whims with little oversight. While his father held a heredatiry seat in the Magisterium, thus ensuring Erimond's future station, his parents nevertheless amde certain their son forged useful connections among the Tevinter elite. His attendance at parties was required, and he often accompanied his father on official business. While not especially charismatic, Erimond proved adept at pinpointing those with the most power. Rather than endear himself to an entire room, he devoted his attention to those most likely to assist his own goals.

Few in the Magisterium were surprised when Erimond's father retired early, granting his seat to his more politically ambitious son. While nationalistic pride his considered common among magisters, Erimond outstripped many of its peers in that regard. It is believed that his zealed drew the attention of well-placed members of the growing Venatori cult and they made contact. It was around that time that some magisters  commented on Erimond's tendency to speak of his position as a stepping-stone rather than the pinncale of his career, though this was largely dismissed as a quirk of character, albeit an irritating one. His attendance at the Magisterium dropped as he began attending meetings that were, he said, of great importance to the glory of Tevinter. He eventually left to pursue urgent matters in the South, providing no elaboration on what that entailed - though it is known he did so in service to Corypheus and his plot to convince Warden-Commander Clarel to raise a demon army. The Inquisition saw that this did not happen, and Erimond's fate was left to the Inquistor's will.

 

How can you look upon Minrathous, or Marnas Pell, or Vyrantium with satisfaction? Unless you lack vision. They reflect only past greatness. I see the future my master will bring, and soon the world will as well.

- Excerpt from a letter written by Magister Livius Erimond  of Vyrantium, confiscated by the Inquisition on Sister Leliana's order

 

Well I correct myself it doesn't give us much more insight on his motivation. Maybe I got things mixed up and thought it gave more details like Alexius entry. Still, had he interacted with Calpernia for example, that might have been interesting. They don't come from the same social standing but both end up with the Venatori.

There is a little bit beside his paragraph that informs us a lot of Venatori aren't mages.

And Lol @ Leliana sternly ruining his fun.

 

Now Florianne:

Spoiler

"From the time she was born, Florianne de Chalons had one purpose in life: to help her brother Gaspard take the throne. Her mother, Grand Duchess Melisande, was the yougest child of Emperor Judicael I. The crown passed from Melisande's father to her oldest brother, Judicael II, and then to her older brother Florian. Emperor Florian Valmont had always been an eccentric man, but the death of Princess Evangeline, his only child, made him even more reclusive. He banished all children from the imperial palace, including the children of servants. Melisande hoped that naming her newborn daughter after him might evoke some curiosity from her brother and allow her children, particularly her firstborn son Gaspard, to visit him.

Her gambit worked. Melisande children were permitted to enter the palace, but had only a single audience with their uncle. The emperor looked impassively at his namesake for a few moments, declined to hold her, refused to even look at her elder brother, and declared in a monotone that the children "might stay; just keep them out of my sight."

Florianne spent her early years in the palace with only servants for company. Her brother, nearly thirteen years her senior, began his chevalier training soon after she was born, nad only rarely had time to spend with his family. Her mother served as one of the emperor only advisors and spent most of each day talking him through the affairs of the empire. Her father Duke Theodore de Chalons, was not an affectionate man and cared only for rich food, strong drink, and gambling on horse race. He rarely bothered with either of his children.

During the day, Florianne wandered the palace gardens. In the evening, her mother would quiz her to repeat back everything she had heard the servants say. They began lessons in etiquette, protocol, and the Game early, training Florianne to be the subtle shadow that trailed behind her shining brother.

Whe Gaspard turned nineteen and became a full-fledged chevalier, he returned to the palace. Melisande pressed for her son to take his place in the emperor cabinet, but at first Florian continued to be difficult and would have only his siblings advise him. This gave Gaspard a great deal of spare time that he spent doting on his little sister. The two grew quite close during their shared exile from the emperor's inner circle, and when, as the Rebel Queen's uprising in Ferelden gained strenght, the emperor relented and allowed his chevalier nephew to advise him, Gaspard insisted on bringing her along to the meetings as his page.

She grew up along the fringe of power - out of sight, out of mind, but always observing. Even after the Council of Heralds awarded the throne to her consin Celene, Florianne continued to live in her suite in the palace. She held a respected, although not particularly substancial place in Celene's cabinet of advisors and in the Imperial court. Having neither the diplomatic prowess of her cousin nor the military acumen of her brother, Florianne developed a reputation of being the least important member of the royal family. Her position would have thrilled her late mother: Florianne had status enough to be invited everywhere, but was so little thought of that no one paid her any attention. A skilled bard could hardly ask for a better cover, but what she would do with it was anybody's guess."

Attention seeker to explain the gameplay/story dissociation, and reveal of the scheme James Bond style I guess.

[Catche Jagger]

Appearances, I'd say. They matter a lot in politics. There is a difference between being openly seen as being wholly dependent on a foreign power, and seemingly seizing power by yourself and then "allying" with that foreign power. I do agree that even Orlais would see her as going too far either way (not because of the murder and betrayals or even the blasphemy, but because of selling out to Tevinter), but being less blatant about it looks more "legitimate". Plus like many such nobles she probably wants the ego boost of having someone to lord her victory over. Gloating at corpses isn't very satisfying, and they are bad at kissing up to you.

The plan she used wouldn't do much to improve her image over the plan I proposed.

Her plan is as follows: Publicly kill Celene and claim that it was her on her brother's orders. (why does anyone believe that he was behind such a ridiculously idiotic plot?) Then, she runs away. Finally, she assumes control when Corypheus' comes and destroys the forces of the nobles with minimal effort. (Except Briala's spy army is still around? And would still provide resistance?) It'd be pretty clear to everyone where her loyalties lay at that point.

The second point that you make does make some sense, but that doesn't stop it from being ridiculously stupid of her. It is completely implausible that she could maintain her position in the Game while following such logic.

[Gervaise]

Florianne assassinating Celene herself is probably because she was the only person who could get close enough to do so.    The animation of that scene and in fact every scene with Celene doesn't really bring out the fact that she should normally have personal body guards in close proximity to herself and the moment anyone lifted a finger against her, they would be arrested.    The daft thing is that those guards posted outside Celene's area never move even when everyone is screaming inside.     Mind you I do wonder what the hell Morrigan was meant to be doing, since Celene had specifically asked her to remain close (typical Morrigan that one).    So you have to imagine that orders are that no one is to get close to Celene apart from Florianne and Gaspard.   She trusts the former because she helped set up the peace ball and she trusts the latter because of his Chevalier sense of honour.    Mind you the latter falls apart a bit when you consider he was going to stage a coup anyway and his sense of honour didn't stop him trying to assassinate Celene whilst out hunting (the Inquisitor of course doesn't know this).

 

I always thought Cole was talking about the envy demon when he refers to someone hating Celene.    However, it makes sense that Cory would hate her for what she represents, an alternate power to Tevinter.     Destabilising Orlais is the main purpose of killing her.    Orlais has been weakened by the civil war.    With Celene out of the way, Gaspard implicated in killing her at a peace conference and Briala returning to wrecking havoc with her elves, plus even more factions emerging as part of "the Game", it is likely the empire will implode and be in no position to oppose anyone, which is what happens if you don't intervene.      The Inquisitor is key because of the fact that they have the role of a religious icon that can unify everyone, at least in the short term until the Cory threat is over, particularly if you have achieved a high level of approval with the Court, which to be honest is not very difficult provided you use a bit of common sense and pay attention to what people advise you.