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Legionnaire's skill trees reworked


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#1
TheThirdRace

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Here's my suggestions for reworking the Legionnaire's skill trees:

OiRre9p.png

The "names" I've given to each line in the trees are self explanatory, but I'll still explain my reasoning.

Basically, I've tried to keep in mind these things while I made the changes:
  • Each line on the skill trees must have a theme
  • The central line should be filled with passives that you would want all for all builds
  • Get access to abilities earlier, you don't want to be level 16 when that happens
  • Replace as much as possible the passives or skills that have no use whatsoever for the character
So here's the explanation for each tree lines:

Guardian


#1 Can't Touch Me
A lot of changes here. The Guardian tree is about defense so giving easy access to boost his basic inner abilities (Armor and Guard) makes sense. Another strong argument for putting access to Armor and Guard passives here is that it allows more build diversity if you want to combine abilities from the Combined Arms skill tree.

#2 Come Here!!!
This is the first "specialization" line of the Guardian tree. If you specialize in defense, you have to be able to keep aggro too. I moved Warcry here to give easier access and made Cutting Words a mandatory passive. The reason I made Cutting Words mandatory is that it can also synergize very well with Counterstrike and To The Death from the Combined Arms tree. Making that passive accessible opens up diversity and promote taunting at the same time. Combat Roll was completely removed from the Legionnaire because it doesn't feel very "Legionnaire-y". I mean, the Lego is made to build Guard, to be a tower of defense, making him "roll" is funny but totally out of character.

#3 Endurance
I must confess this line is much more about making the remaining passives accessible than anything else. I had to put them somewhere, but couldn't find a great theme for them. The 3rd line is a good spot and I made sure to put Turn The Bolt (in place of Biggest Threat) at the center so you don't feel too cheated by having to take it. I realize with enough promotions it's completely useless, but it does help most of the player base so it's a small sacrifice. It was either that or putting the 5th line here, and it wouldn't have been any better...

#4 Hold The Line
Technically, it's not really an easier access since it's the same amount of skill points to get to either Unbowed or Walking Fortress. But the 4th line is the usual place for abilities #4 and #5 in skill trees so it made sense to put them there. I removed the passives locked behind those skills so you don't waste skill points.

#5 I'm The Boss
This line is now about showing you're the man. You're the threat, if enemies hit you, they'll suffer in return. Everything that was on the 6th line has been moved elsewhere so I made this line with the best theme I could come up with. It's not like a lot of people are rushing to get those passives so it's a good spot for them. I took care to put Biggest Threat in the middle since it's usually the most useful of the three.


Combined Arms


#1 Starting Skill
No change, same starting skill as usual.

#2 I'll Get You
Since I moved the passive I Cost You to the Guardian tree, I needed to replace it with something else. Nothing felt "right" for the line until I found Coup De Grace from the Katari/Reaver. 30% damage on enemies that are knocked down or stunned fits perfectly with Shield Bash and Payback Strike. It also synergize surprisingly well with Lunge and Slash since you can easily use that move to close the gap between you and a knocked down enemy.

#3 Relentless
Just as with the Guardian tree, it wasn't easy to find something that would fit for the 3rd line for the Combined Arms tree. I decided to put the emphasis on gaining Stamina, of which Warrior's Resolve is the best passive since it works even when you only lose Guard. I moved to the side Deep Reserves as it's not as good as Warrior's Resolve but pretty nice nonetheless. Finally, I digged again in the Reaver's arsenal and added Relentless Attack (+1% Critical Chance per attack, reset on Critical Hit). It does fit the theme name well and I think it will synergize well with Flow of Battle later in the tree.

#4 I'll Fight Back
This line is completely different than the original. Grappling Chain is completely gone and the passives have been relocated elsewhere, only To The Death remains. With the goal of gaining access to abilities earlier, I decided to also put Unyielding and Counterstrike here. The location of those skills is a great compromise if you want to specialize in both skill trees at the same time to give you a mix of defense and offense. It gives you more build diversity because the abilities aren't tied to the very bottom of each tree.

#5 Feel My Light Touch
This line is mostly about critical hits. While Flow of Battle is 1 skill point farther, I made sure to put it in the middle for easier access. Blood Frenzy is gone as it was a bit too much out of character. A Legionnaire should stand with its Guard up, defend with its Armor and be ready to Shield Wall if necessary, nothing to do with being as close to death as possible...

#6 Offense Specialist
Here we specialize in breaking Armor, damaging Guard and not being flanked in the process. It's pretty straight forward as a line theme. I've put those passives there since they're usually aren't as useful as the other, you use them to put the finishing touches on you build, they're usually not core passives. Although they can be very useful on Nightmare and Heartbreaker, I didn't feel like they belong anywhere before the 6th line.


Additional Notes
Resilience should be boosted from a 5% to a 15% chance to stun. A 1 in 20 chances a melee attack stuns your enemy is way too low to make a difference. Most of the attacks are ranged to begin with and you usually don't get a lot of melee attacks in a short amount of time. I think a 1 in 6.65 chance of stun is perfectly reasonable.

To The Death should see its cooldown reduced from 32 to 24 seconds. In the lower difficulties (Routine, Threatening and Perilous), by the time the animation is over your target has already been dealt with by an ally. It's very good for Nightmare, but the cooldown is very restrictive. Furthermore, the cooldown of every other taunting abilities have been reduced generously, I think 24 seconds is very reasonable in the circumstances.

Relentless Attack is pretty weak in its current form. There are no Warriors able to actually use it efficiently. I think it would be a very nice addition to boost it to maybe 3% or 4% per hit. It would make a world of difference for underpromoted players but wouldn't change much for overpromoted players since they already Critical Hit often enough to not need it.

Balanced Combat is really bad. 10 Stamina after a block if you attack is simply not worth it. Not only do you lose a good chunk of Stamina by blocking, but you're also not regenerating any either. 10 Stamina is a slap in the face, 25 would seem much more appropriate.

Finally, Warriors don't have a lot of good passives. I thought it would be much easier to rework the Legionnaire's skill trees than it was for the Assassin. I realized quickly that there isn't much variety at all for the Warriors. Maybe that's why they felt so underwhelming at first, we're luck the balance changes made them much better than the original version...
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#2
Cirvante

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Lego skill tree is fine.

 

I'm all in favor of giving some love to underperforming characters like the Assassin, but the Lego isn't one of them.


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#3
Felis Menari

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Lego skill tree is fine.

I'm all in favor of giving some love to underperforming characters like the Assassin, but the Lego isn't one of them.

The Lego needs several more skill points than the Templar to get all of the important defensive passives, despite the Lego clearly being more geared towards defense than the Templar. That is most certainly not fine.
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#4
Proto

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I like it! Well done again.

 

I will second Cirvante's opinion that the Legionnaire isn't anywhere near a top priority.



#5
Yallegro

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You named the rows?

 

Are you feeling well?



#6
T_elic

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Looks great. Really like that the guard passives aren't locked away behind skills.



#7
Cirvante

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The Lego needs several more skill points than the Templar to get all of the important defensive passives, despite the Lego clearly being more geared towards defense than the Templar. That is most certainly not fine.

 

So what? Lego has access to WF and CS. He's practically invincible once you get the Hakkon Longsword. He's a really good tank, while the Templar is some weird tank/support/AoE hybrid.

 

I see no point in making him even stronger. Hunter and Assassin need a rework of their skill trees. The AW needs a rework of his Fade Shield and Spirit Blade abilities. That has a much higher priority for me than making the Lego's skill tree more convenient.


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#8
Felis Menari

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So what? Lego has access to WF and CS. He's practically invincible once you get the Hakkon Longsword. He's a really good tank, while the Templar is some weird tank/support/AoE hybrid.

I see no point in making him even stronger. Hunter and Assassin need a rework of their skill trees. The AW needs a rework of his Fade Shield and Spirit Blade abilities. That has a much higher priority for me than making the Lego's skill tree more convenient.

I'm not talking about priority; I'm simply pointing out something that is clearly wrong. It's not like it's impossible for more than one class to be adjusted at a time, anyways.
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#9
TheThirdRace

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I like the Legionnaire, never said he was a priority though :)

 

I would be likely to do the same for all the other characters if given a go ahead from BLuke directly, but otherwise I'm not gonna "work" my ass off for something that will never be useful.



#10
TheThirdRace

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You named the rows?
 
Are you feeling well?


Gave them a theme, not really a name... It's pretty useful if you want to give a layout that make some kind of sense...

#11
MGW7

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I don't like the idea of passives springing off the starting power to the sides of some trees but not others.

 

I would move fevor from the endurance line to where biggest threat is,

 

and put biggest threat down on so it is optional even when you want the other passives, because it is a really lame upgrade outside specific circumstance, especially with all the taunts overriding it anyways.

 

Balanced combat is really bad, and does not even begin to cover it's own cost, I would simply get rid of it, then move the 4 passives from the CTM line to the endurance line, as they are.



#12
SpaceV3gan

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The Lego is awesome as it is, very well-rounded and capable of some serious XP output. There isn't much I could ask to be changed.

As a dedicated Tank, perhaps it would be nicer to have taunting abilities available at lower levels - even at level 1. But that is in no way a priority.
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#13
Banxey

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The Lego is awesome as it is, very well-rounded and capable of some serious XP output. There isn't much I could ask to be changed.

As a dedicated Tank, perhaps it would be nicer to have taunting abilities available at lower levels - even at level 1. But that is in no way a priority.

 

Having taunts lower on the tree would be great. My experience is that he feels a little useless until he can draw aggro reliably.


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#14
ThatBruhYouDK

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So what? Lego has access to WF and CS. He's practically invincible once you get the Hakkon Longsword. He's a really good tank, while the Templar is some weird tank/support/AoE hybrid.

 

I see no point in making him even stronger. Hunter and Assassin need a rework of their skill trees. The AW needs a rework of his Fade Shield and Spirit Blade abilities. That has a much higher priority for me than making the Lego's skill tree more convenient.

I agree with Cirvante. While I like some of this tree you made Third, Lego doesn't need to be touched right now. He is damn near unstoppable, unless you go take a nap or something lol. Would I like more damage? Yes. But he is meant to tank not kill alot. I vote that he is fine as he is



#15
TheThirdRace

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I agree with Cirvante. While I like some of this tree you made Third, Lego doesn't need to be touched right now. He is damn near unstoppable, unless you go take a nap or something lol. Would I like more damage? Yes. But he is meant to tank not kill alot. I vote that he is fine as he is


Technically, the only things I've added are a passive to increase his Critical Chance and a bit more damage when enemies are knocked down. Everything else is just moving around what he already has. I would hardly call that making him kill a lot.

And for what it's worth, a defensive Lego is boring as ****. If you don't play him offensively, you're missing a freaking lot of fun. It's not as good on Nightmare, but it's amazing on Perilous. I've asked Luke with 2 posts of 2000+ words to not "fix" Guard the way he did back in Beta, but he went ahead with his horrible idea and gimped the whole offensive tree as a result. If they don't want to make the Lego able to kill things, remove his abilities to do so, if you put those abilities there, make them work. Nothing frustrates me more than lack of vision, people open your eyes, 1 possible choice is not a choice...

Back to the topic...

Just because people are able to play him in the rigid mold he's currently baked into doesn't mean it's "fine". My suggestions use the same skills and passives he already has, I just made it so it's possible to mix both skill trees instead of forcing one or the other. I also modified the trees so you don't need to be level 14 before you get a sensible build. He's not a killing machine, I only nudged him a bit to help his repressed offensive side but he's not gonna anywhere near a Reaver, he's still gonna be lower than a Templar by far.

I agree his trees aren't horribly wrong, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved somehow. I know there are other priorities but there's no harm in doing this either. I don't understand the reasoning behind "it's not absolutely needed thus this shouldn't exist". Art isn't needed, movies aren't needed, music isn't needed. All you need is food, water and shelter. Life would be freaking boring with just that...

In any case, I won't be doing those suggestion anymore unless Luke is interested in reading them. I sent him a message yesterday asking him if he still needed feedback for the skill trees and I'm still waiting for an answer. If that answer is negative or doesn't come, I won't waste my time doing them. I was just curious to see what a sensible design would look. What we have isn't particularly good, it forces you to get a lot of unnecessary things for no reason while it limits your possibilities as much as possible. DAMP suffers a lot from bad designs, bad decisions that were made with a lack of vision. I know sometimes it's hard to predict the future use of your software, but DAMP is particularly guilty on that front. There's a clear lack of structure that shows itself in the little details. Anyway, I don't want to continue in this line of thinking, I would have too much to say :(

The important thing is I made it for personal amusement and a small hope to improve the game we love. If Luke likes those kind of suggestions then I'll continue to provide them. If he doesn't, that's fine and I won't go any further.

#16
Zorinho20_CRO

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Assasin needs improvement, but after that show some love to the  Hunter.

Give him some AoE ensnare skill.He should  become more like Rogue support specialist,so that would go fine with it.



#17
Proto

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Just because people are able to play him in the rigid mold he's currently baked into doesn't mean it's "fine". My suggestions use the same skills and passives he already has, I just made it so it's possible to mix both skill trees instead of forcing one or the other. I also modified the trees so you don't need to be level 14 before you get a sensible build. He's not a killing machine, I only nudged him a bit to help his repressed offensive side but he's not gonna anywhere near a Reaver, he's still gonna be lower than a Templar by far.

 

Agree there is room for improvement. For me he's NM ready by level 10 with the Hakkon sword. Not many other classes are as useful at that low of a level.

 

Upgraded Lunge & Slash / Counterstrike / Flow of Battle.