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Will Cerberus Make It To ME:A?


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#101
Han Shot First

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In the same interview, he further goes on admitting that the writers  just basically made up story as the series went along, saying that when he left the Mass Effect 2 development team they had basically no idea what the plot would be exactly in the third game.

 

 

I thought that was the biggest mistake they made in developing the series. Of course they didn't need to have every element of the trilogy nailed down while developing the first game, but they should have had a basic concept for how they were going to end it. 


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#102
Former_Fiend

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Especially given the core concept of the series was choices that carry over from one game to another. They were arrogant, frankly, that they'd be able to accommodate all of those choices in the time they had, especially when they didn't consider the implications of any of them.


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#103
DaemionMoadrin

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Especially given the core concept of the series was choices that carry over from one game to another. They were arrogant, frankly, that they'd be able to accommodate all of those choices in the time they had, especially when they didn't consider the implications of any of them.

 

The stories of ME1 and ME2 were a mess already, it was way too optimistic to expect ME3 to be different.



#104
Ahriman

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I thought that was the biggest mistake they made in developing the series. Of course they didn't need to have every element of the trilogy nailed down while developing the first game, but they should have had a basic concept for how they were going to end it. 

I doubt they see it as a mistake. ME trilogy has 89/94/89 points on metacritic, everything worked out just well.



#105
Kappa Neko

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Especially given the core concept of the series was choices that carry over from one game to another. They were arrogant, frankly, that they'd be able to accommodate all of those choices in the time they had, especially when they didn't consider the implications of any of them.

And even after the ending disaster, they are STILL being arrogant, not even trying to repair the damage. No apology. They took the easiest way out, which is ignore and forget it ever happened. They know how popular the franchise is, so they can make money throwing anything at people. And that's what worries me.

The game doesn't have to be good to sell like hotcakes. This is how EA makes money. Mediocre is just fine for them. It's profitable enough. They have so many games in development, so many cash cows, they don't need to make great games.

 

And from what little we've heard about ME:A, it all sounds way too familiar. So ANOTHER mysterious but evil ancient race? Seriously, Bioware? I hope they won't just recycle the old trilogy with a new paint job and even more emphasis on shooting stuff. Because if so, do us all a favor and sell an MP-only game. Easiest way to make money. And then I won't have to waste mine.



#106
DaemionMoadrin

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I doubt they see it as a mistake. ME trilogy has 89/94/89 points on metacritic, everything worked out just well.

 

It could have been better though.



#107
Natureguy85

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If it was so obvious, kindly explain how you knew. Map out your reasoning.
 

 

We saw the soldier implanted with Reaper technology so we knew TIM was using it. We know this causes Indoctrination 100% of the time so far. We are given no reason to believe this is an exception. TIM is now opposing our efforts to defeat the Reapers when he was formally all about defeating the Reapers. He has a totally new idea about Controlling them that was never mentioned before. All of this screams Indoctrination. Sure, it's possible he isn't, but I had no reason to think so.

 

It's not meaningless. The in-game reality is a fictional world that exists just for me. Yours exists just for you. And they can be different; they're like bubble universes.

I can resolve the ambiguity however I like, and I choose to do it in the way that makes the game better for me. But I'm not the one making positive claims, so I'm not the one who needs evidence.

Until proven otherwise, all things are possible. Without conclusive evidence otherwise, I'll happily play with thise possibilities.
 

 

I don't find it ambiguous at all. As I said above, the game is shouting that TIM is Indoctrinated. Sure it's not until later that it says it plainly instead of just providing the evidence, but that doesn't mean it wasn't clear.

 

 You are indeed making positive claims. You said it's possible TIM figured out a way to stop Indoctrination. There is no evidence of that. There is plenty of reason to think the opposite.

 

 

For two reasons. One, I don't find examples informative. I can't generalize from examples, but I can instantiate from universals, so I prefer to deal in universals.

Two, I reject your premise. The game is different without knowledge of the previous games, but I deny that it is nonsensical. Shepard doesn't need to understand the Reapers or their cycle in order to recognize them as a threat. The game still works; it's just different.

 

Ok, well it's pretty universal that in trilogies, the first two installments are key to understanding the third.

 

On the second point, yes, the Reapers are still presented as a threat well, but the game doesn't present it's setting as well as the first game did. The basic plot can still work, but most of the events along the way are stripped of their weight. On the positive side, you'll have less reason to be annoyed by Cerberus as you'll be unaware of their transformation from a small, rogue alliance cell, but there's still no good reason for them to be the primary antagonist.

 

The fact that the story is so removed from the events of the previous chapters that you think it works alone is a weakness, not a strength.

 

 

I think you're making the mistake of viewing the story as a single piece. I would argue that there is no story except the one that arises as you play. A playthrough can have a story, but the game doesn't. The game contains merely events. To describe that combination of events as a story is to invent structure where it doesn't exist.

 

This is factually wrong unless you define every change as a different story even if those stories have the exact same plot. Maybe that's what you're doing. There is a set story that allows you to influence non plot integral things along the way. The things that you do have an influence on really don't affect the plot. They do eventually effect your ability to get certain EMS things, but there is plenty to still get max EMS from other sources. For example, you technically have two different stories if you save or abandon the council, but the plot is the same.

 

 

The media's intent is irrelevant. Death of author.

 

While it's certainly possible for media to have an effect the creator didn't intend, you said inducing an emotional response is pointless and unnecessary, yet that's what media does all the time.

 

 

The player needs some way to direct his character in a manner that is consistent with that character's design. Until we can define the character in advance with sufficient detail as to capture every nuance, we need player inputs.

Moreover, player inputs aren't the game acknowledging me. They're the means by which I acknowledge the game.

And I suppose I neant in-game events, as opposed to UI elements.
 

 

Ok, what in-game events are acknowledging the player's existence? A scene being set or constructed a certain way isn't this.

 

A defined character whom I think makes terrible decisions, and one I don't particularly enjoy playing.

 

I can't argue with you there. Mass Effect isn't for you then because that's what Bioware made.



#108
Seboist

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And this is why we are going to Andromeda as a result of poor planning. One can only hope they learned from their mistakes and planned their future games (trilogy if it will be the case) ahead.

 

It goes beyond lack of planning, but lack of vision as well. Add in a revolving door of writers of questionable talent with their own ideas on how to do things and well, recipe for disaster.

 

 

Especially given the core concept of the series was choices that carry over from one game to another. They were arrogant, frankly, that they'd be able to accommodate all of those choices in the time they had, especially when they didn't consider the implications of any of them.

 

 

BW never had any intention of making choices amount to anything more than flavoring fluff, that was always just PR hot air. Just look at ME1 with how most choices affect nothing and how in ME2 the only thing the import amounted to was e-mails and cameos and as bad as that was, if you played Renegade you didn't even get that.


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#109
Former_Fiend

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It goes beyond lack of planning, but lack of vision as well. Add in a revolving door of writers of questionable talent with their own ideas on how to do things and well, recipe for disaster.

 

 
 

 

BW never had any intention of making choices amount to anything more than flavoring fluff, that was always just PR hot air. Just look at ME1 with how most choices affect nothing and how in ME2 the only thing the import amounted to was e-mails and cameos and as bad as that was, if you played Renegade you didn't even get that.

 

I absolutely think that they intended for certain choices - 5th fleet vs Destiny Ascension, Rachni, things like that - to have an impact later on down the line. Then when they started working on ME2 they realized "holy **** we got in over our heads". 

 

The choices amounted to nothing due to their lack of foresight and vision and their inability to follow through with what they had promised; they got cocky and as it turned out they weren't as good as they thought they were so they took the cop-out.



#110
AlanC9

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And even after the ending disaster, they are STILL being arrogant, not even trying to repair the damage. No apology. They took the easiest way out, which is ignore and forget it ever happened.


Exactly what would it look like if they tried to "repair the damage"? Most of the proposals I've seen to do that either don't do anything or actually make things worse.

#111
AlanC9

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We saw the soldier implanted with Reaper technology so we knew TIM was using it. We know this causes Indoctrination 100% of the time so far. We are given no reason to believe this is an exception. TIM is now opposing our efforts to defeat the Reapers when he was formally all about defeating the Reapers. He has a totally new idea about Controlling them that was never mentioned before. All of this screams Indoctrination. Sure, it's possible he isn't, but I had no reason to think so.


Well, it's not a crazy conclusion, although TIM does get results on Horizon. It just happens to be a bit wrong.
 

On the second point, yes, the Reapers are still presented as a threat well, but the game doesn't present it's setting as well as the first game did. The basic plot can still work, but most of the events along the way are stripped of their weight. On the positive side, you'll have less reason to be annoyed by Cerberus as you'll be unaware of their transformation from a small, rogue alliance cell, but there's still no good reason for them to be the primary antagonist.


Primary? I don't see that. Anyway, if you always believed that Cerberus was 100% indoctrinated, then there's no difference between the Reapers and Cerberus anyway -- thy're the same force.

#112
LinksOcarina

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And even after the ending disaster, they are STILL being arrogant, not even trying to repair the damage. No apology. They took the easiest way out, which is ignore and forget it ever happened. They know how popular the franchise is, so they can make money throwing anything at people. And that's what worries me.

The game doesn't have to be good to sell like hotcakes. This is how EA makes money. Mediocre is just fine for them. It's profitable enough. They have so many games in development, so many cash cows, they don't need to make great games.

 

And from what little we've heard about ME:A, it all sounds way too familiar. So ANOTHER mysterious but evil ancient race? Seriously, Bioware? I hope they won't just recycle the old trilogy with a new paint job and even more emphasis on shooting stuff. Because if so, do us all a favor and sell an MP-only game. Easiest way to make money. And then I won't have to waste mine.

 

Except...they don't owe you any apology if you ask me.

 

And if they did, they gave it to you already in the Extended Cut.

 

It's weird. Stuff like above makes it sound like you think BioWare doesn't care, when id argue they care too damn much in the end. 



#113
Nomen Mendax

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I thought that was the biggest mistake they made in developing the series. Of course they didn't need to have every element of the trilogy nailed down while developing the first game, but they should have had a basic concept for how they were going to end it. 

I agree with this, I always thought it bizarre that they would plan on making a trilogy without having the major plot points figured out. I always felt that ME2 was the worst example of this - particularly when they came out and said that ME2 was intended to be played with minimal knowledge of ME1 (or words to that effect).



#114
Gwydden

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The best trilogies I've seen (books, movies, games, whatever) either have the core plot planned out from the beginning or have auto-conclusive entries (think DA, although it does not require switching protagonists). Hope they go one of those ways, because you could tell from a mile away that in the original trilogy they just made up stuff as they went along, even though it all supposedly follows an overarching plot.



#115
dragonflight288

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Considering we do not know exactly when the ARK is launched.  Could Cerberus still make a presence in the Andromeda galaxy? Or a least something similar? 

 

Considering the game is centuries after the events of ME3, it'd probably be a descendant with a different name. 

 

All it would take is a group of people wanting to put humanity, or even Milk Wayans, on top. 



#116
Dantriges

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As the CIA says, "If two people know something, it's not a secret."

 

As you just pointed out, TIM's behaviour makes perfect sense given TIM's position.  He doesn't value the lives of the people he uses as tools.  Shepard is occasionally one of those tools.  This shouldn't surprise Shepard at all.

 

And for the record, I generally ignore the moral and ethical questions, because they never really matter and they're never based on anything.  All morality is orange and blue morality.

Rather useless saying. Well it´s more keep it to need to know. I think the commander who is running into the trap should know unless mission success is irrelevant.

 

Who should Shepard tell and why? He´s in transit on a warship equipped with a cyberwarfare AI. If EDI is unable to detect unauthorized outgoing transmissions,  she should have keeled over when collector general came by for a virtual visit or never detected the transmission from the IFF. There actually shouldn´t be any transmissions going out when the ship is running silent like uh when we are on a dangerous mission. So no surfing for porn Joker or chatting with online dates Miranda until the job´s over.

Yes I know of Jacob´s situp video in the Shadow Base. Considering that the Shadow Broker knows, how many times TIM got laid this week, it´s rather likely that the vid got siphoned out of the Chronos Station database instead of EDi constantly missing that there are bugs transmitting to comm buoys over a prolonged time. Probably using her own comsuite.  So the only risk to breach of secrecy is TIM´s  need to snoop around.

 

What´s the point of sending in Shepard without the info that it could be a trap. TIM´s plan boils down to, uh well, I think you and EDI can do it based on pure faith.

 

As i said there are no moral questions here.



#117
Red Panda

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The Ur-Didact WAS actually a deeper villain than any in Mass Effect, it just wasn't adequately expressed in Halo 4 - and instead in the Forerunner Trilogy.

And it shouldn't be expected to. It's a FPS, not an RPG. I dont know why people were expecting an RPG level story.

Well, there's a problem if the game lacks any hint of the villain's character and instead has to be written into villainous monologues in some book that most of the Halo fanbase is unable to read.


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#118
Natureguy85

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BW never had any intention of making choices amount to anything more than flavoring fluff, that was always just PR hot air. Just look at ME1 with how most choices affect nothing and how in ME2 the only thing the import amounted to was e-mails and cameos and as bad as that was, if you played Renegade you didn't even get that.

 

This isn't a bad thing either. Sure, we might want them to have more impact in a Trilogy but that's hard to plan and program. The choices didn't really matter in Dragon Age Origins, but they gave a proper epilogue so you got to see the impact on the future.

 

Well, it's not a crazy conclusion, although TIM does get results on Horizon. It just happens to be a bit wrong.
 


Primary? I don't see that. Anyway, if you always believed that Cerberus was 100% indoctrinated, then there's no difference between the Reapers and Cerberus anyway -- thy're the same force.

 

Cerberus opposes Shepard more directly and, IIRC, more often than the Reapers. This is the definition of the Antagonist. The Reapers are just attacking everything. Cerberus is deliberate in opposing Shepard. While you're mostly right, there is a slight difference when you look at Horizon and compare it to Virmire. TIM, like Saren, is still doing things somewhat independently. He is Indoctrinated, but the control is more subtle so he remains useful. Remember the inverse ratio of control to utility.

 

Except...they don't owe you any apology if you ask me.

 

And if they did, they gave it to you already in the Extended Cut.

 

It's weird. Stuff like above makes it sound like you think BioWare doesn't care, when id argue they care too damn much in the end. 

 

The Extended Cut was a half assed effort in a desperate attempt to get fans off their backs.

 

The best trilogies I've seen (books, movies, games, whatever) either have the core plot planned out from the beginning or have auto-conclusive entries (think DA, although it does not require switching protagonists). Hope they go one of those ways, because you could tell from a mile away that in the original trilogy they just made up stuff as they went along, even though it all supposedly follows an overarching plot.

 

Is Dragon Age really a trilogy though? I haven't played Inquisition to see how they connect but Origins and 2 have nothing to do with each other.



#119
DaemionMoadrin

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Is Dragon Age really a trilogy though? I haven't played Inquisition to see how they connect but Origins and 2 have nothing to do with each other.

 

It's a trilogy in the same sense as the Predator franchise is a trilogy.

 

Outside of some cameos none of the games have anything to do with each other.



#120
Seboist

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The choices didn't really matter in Dragon Age Origins, but they gave a proper epilogue so you got to see the impact on the future.

 

Say what now? There were tangible impacts from choices in DA:O, like choosing whether to side with the werewolves or the dalish and then proceeding to fight the other side in actual gameplay. Then there's the final battle in denerim where whomever you sided with actually saddles up with you and fights alongside you against the darkspawn, it's not like the earth battle in ME3 where i just get a brief fluff cutscene. Those are just some examples.

 

That the ME branch of BW couldn't even be arsed to do minor things in ME like giving us an exclusive gun or item for a choice or have Cerberus troops packing collector weapons if the base was kept speaks volumes about their lack of intent on doing anything meaningful with choices.


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#121
Iakus

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Is Dragon Age really a trilogy though? I haven't played Inquisition to see how they connect but Origins and 2 have nothing to do with each other.

Dragon Age is an open-ended series.   Different protagonists, different regions of the continent,  different story.  But all within the same setting.  


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#122
Elhanan

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Only if they appear in the form of debris....

#123
Natureguy85

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Say what now? There were tangible impacts from choices in DA:O, like choosing whether to side with the werewolves or the dalish and then proceeding to fight the other side in actual gameplay. Then there's the final battle in denerim where whomever you sided with actually saddles up with you and fights alongside you against the darkspawn, it's not like the earth battle in ME3 where i just get a brief fluff cutscene. Those are just some examples.

 

That the ME branch of BW couldn't even be arsed to do minor things in ME like giving us an exclusive gun or item for a choice or have Cerberus troops packing collector weapons if the base was kept speaks volumes about their lack of intent on doing anything meaningful with choices.

 

And that changed what? The elves or werewolves are totally interchangeable. Who you fight is a minor difference. It's not like you chose early and the mission had a branching path, like in Witcher 2.



#124
Arcling

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It is obvious that Cerberus was retconned into more prominent role since ME1. The worst thing they done in my opinion was changing some facts even further through next games and those comics (Foundation), where they were shown to be related to events they previously had no connection with (like meeting with Wrex in ME1). In the end, too much stuff got related to Cerberus, which made universe feel somehow small, despite it's size being whole galaxy. So, they should stay dead for good. Better to let some new enemies shine.


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#125
Jay P

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Considering we do not know exactly when the ARK is launched. Could Cerberus still make a presence in the Andromeda galaxy? Or a least something similar?


Please no.

No cerebus.

No reapers.

No former companions.

No shepherd.

New game, new characters, new galaxy.
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