338 réponses à ce sujet

[PlatonicWaffles]

PLEASE NO

 

Martin Sheen and his Merry Band of Space Nazis™'s story is finished, closed. Please no more. I want Andromeda to be entirely its own thing.

[Arcian]

Please no.

No cerebus.

No reapers.

No former companions.

No shepherd.

New game, new characters, new galaxy, new region of the Milky Way to expore.

FTFY.

[Aimi]

Martin Sheen and his Merry Band of Space Nazis™'s story is finished, closed.

"Working Towards the TIMmy": Reflections on the Nature of the Cerberus Dictatorship

[Killroy]

FTFY.

No you didn't.

[Giantdeathrobot]

ups, double post

[Giantdeathrobot]

I thought that was the biggest mistake they made in developing the series. Of course they didn't need to have every element of the trilogy nailed down while developing the first game, but they should have had a basic concept for how they were going to end it. 

 

It's something that Dragon Age did much better imo. Each game flew fairly naturally into the next (especially DA2 into Inquisition). The story feels much better paced as a result and features much fewer plot holes.

 

With Mass Effect it was obvious that the writers made stuff up as they went along, sadly. Cerberus is just the most obvious failing in this regard, there are many more (such as the Crucible).

[Ashevajak]

I'd rather see the return of Kaiden, Ashley, Thane, Jenkins, Arl Rendon Howe, Irenicus and disco than I would the return of Cerberus.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I'd rather see the return of Kaiden, Ashley, Thane, Jenkins, Arl Rendon Howe, Irenicus and disco than I would the return of Cerberus.

 

That gave me the mental image of all of them wearing a white polyester suit and dancing in sync to Staying Alive on a brightly colored and glowing disco floor.

[Thermopylae]

Well, Mass Effect is a work of fiction and such things "evolve" organically, Cerberus in Mass Effect was a kind of throw away cartoonish villany, SPECTRE type organisation. Then in ME2 it became a valid entity with a political structure and spokes people including Miranda Lawson and Jacob Taylor and things became less villany and more freedom fighterish. It would be vaguely satisfying to see the remains of Cerberus splintered off trying to regroup and formulate an ideology to deal with their experiences, maybe not as part of the main plot line but some side plot. The technology ethos does fit a kind of transhumanist solution to the problem of fallible humanity, which they tried to do using Reaper technology. I wouldn't be suprised if they tried to augument themselves using the Geth or Quarians as a model study group, it still fits the theme of Cerberus being a multiheaded animal. The possibilities are many.

[Jay P]

FTFY.

Am I missing something?

https://en.m.wikiped...ndromeda_Galaxy

?

[God]

"Working Towards the TIMmy": Reflections on the Nature of the Cerberus Dictatorship

 

Sounds like paradise.

[God]

I want to see a human analogue group that has the same ideas, methodology, and even policy as Cerberus.

 

And I want them to actually be portrayed sympathetically, where we can actually support them this go around.

 

I wanted to support Cerberus in the trilogy. The game generally doesn't let me do that. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

We saw the soldier implanted with Reaper technology so we knew TIM was using it. We know this causes Indoctrination 100% of the time so far.

Did we really have enough data to draw that strong a conclusion?  That we're never seen something doesn't mean it can't happen - it just means we haven't seen it.

He has a totally new idea about Controlling them that was never mentioned before.

That's how new ideas work.

All of this screams Indoctrination. Sure, it's possible he isn't, but I had no reason to think so.

You're looking for a reason to abandon a position you already held.  But I never held that initial position, so I'm still working from a position of uncertainty.

I don't find it ambiguous at all. As I said above, the game is shouting that TIM is Indoctrinated. Sure it's not until later that it says it plainly instead of just providing the evidence, but that doesn't mean it wasn't clear.

I haven't got that far yet.  We'll see if I agree with you there.

You are indeed making positive claims. You said it's possible TIM figured out a way to stop Indoctrination. There is no evidence of that. There is plenty of reason to think the opposite.

I'm not positing anything.  That's what I mean when I say I'm not making positive claims.  Everything is possible until we see persuasive evidence to the contrary.  I'm living in the only rational default position: that of uncertainty.

Ok, well it's pretty universal that in trilogies, the first two installments are key to understanding the third.

If the game needs me to recall details of the previous games, it should remind me.  ME was released in 2008!

 

That said, I don't think ME3 does need me to remember those details.  The game looks like it would work fine regardless (and I did play both ME and ME2 - I liked TIM all through ME2, so I'm not predisposed to viewing him as a villain).

The fact that the story is so removed from the events of the previous chapters that you think it works alone is a weakness, not a strength.

That's subjective.

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

This is factually wrong unless you define every change as a different story even if those stories have the exact same plot.

 

If there's a change, then they don't have the exact same plot.  How are you defining plot that you can change parts of it without it changing?

Maybe that's what you're doing. There is a set story that allows you to influence non plot integral things along the way. The things that you do have an influence on really don't affect the plot. They do eventually effect your ability to get certain EMS things, but there is plenty to still get max EMS from other sources. For example, you technically have two different stories if you save or abandon the council, but the plot is the same.

I don't think you (or BioWare) gets to define what the plot is.  The plot is literally everything that happens in the course of the game.

While it's certainly possible for media to have an effect the creator didn't intend, you said inducing an emotional response is pointless and unnecessary, yet that's what media does all the time.

I didn't say it was pointless to do it.  I said it was pointless to try.

Ok, what in-game events are acknowledging the player's existence? A scene being set or constructed a certain way isn't this.

Depth of focus effects.  Lens flare.  Attempts to relay information to the player directly, rather than simply to the player's character.

 

But we were taking about emotion.  If the game is trying to induce an emotional response in the player, then the game is acknowledging the player.  It can't attempt to do something to the player if it doesn't know the player is there.

I can't argue with you there. Mass Effect isn't for you then because that's what Bioware made.

I do not dispute this.  ME had potential.  ME2 was wrong in nearly every respect, and when I asked the devs about that they told me explicitly that they were actively trying to make the game do the things I disliked.

 

That's why I didn't play ME3 right away.  That proved to be an excellent decision, because ME3 isn't good (I think it's better than ME2, though).

[N7Jamaican]

I bet we will see something equivalent to Cerberus.  Or at least, pro-milky way faction.

[God]

I bet we will see something equivalent to Cerberus.  Or at least, pro-milky way faction.

 

I hope so, and I hope we can support said group.

[kathic]

Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity.

[In Exile]

Say what now? There were tangible impacts from choices in DA:O, like choosing whether to side with the werewolves or the dalish and then proceeding to fight the other side in actual gameplay. Then there's the final battle in denerim where whomever you sided with actually saddles up with you and fights alongside you against the darkspawn, it's not like the earth battle in ME3 where i just get a brief fluff cutscene. Those are just some examples.

That the ME branch of BW couldn't even be arsed to do minor things in ME like giving us an exclusive gun or item for a choice or have Cerberus troops packing collector weapons if the base was kept speaks volumes about their lack of intent on doing anything meaningful with choices.

If the difference between elves and werewolves counts then Paddock Wicks or whatever his name was, Wreav and substitute Legion absolutely count as 'reactive' content since they go further than the DAO pallet swap troops and have different and unique dialogue.

[Natureguy85]

Did we really have enough data to draw that strong a conclusion?  That we're never seen something doesn't mean it can't happen - it just means we haven't seen it.

 

Yes, I had enough. Could I have turned out to be wrong ultimately? Sure. But there was never one thing in the game to make me doubt TIM was Indoctrinated.

 

That's how new ideas work.

 

Yes, but it has no basis in anything, isn't explained, and more importantly, is an excuse to oppose you, reminiscent of Saren and Kenson (from Arrival).

 

You're looking for a reason to abandon a position you already held.  But I never held that initial position, so I'm still working from a position of uncertainty.

 

You're ignoring evidence in favor of keeping open possibilities with no evidence. As I said above, the game could always have proved me wrong. But not once is there anything to suggest TIM isn't Indoctrinated.

 

 

I'm not positing anything.  That's what I mean when I say I'm not making positive claims.  Everything is possible until we see persuasive evidence to the contrary.  I'm living in the only rational default position: that of uncertainty.

 

You're opening up a possibility that doesn't exist in the universe. True, they could introduce one, but they don't and they don't offer any evidence that this is the case. Playing with Reaper tech leads to Indoctrination. There is no affirmative reason to believe TIM is an exception.

 

 

If the game needs me to recall details of the previous games, it should remind me.  ME was released in 2008!

 

There is something to be said for that. A little exposition can go a long way.

 

 

That said, I don't think ME3 does need me to remember those details.  The game looks like it would work fine regardless (and I did play both ME and ME2 - I liked TIM all through ME2, so I'm not predisposed to viewing him as a villain).

 

The main plot does work on it's own, but the universe and decisions lose much of their weight.

 

 

That's subjective.

 

This was in reference to a third chapter being disconnected from the rest of the series being a bad thing. It's not subjective. Without a connection to what happened before, the earlier struggles become meaningless. We might as well have just started with the third chapter.

 

 

I'll get to your other post later. There's some good stuff there to address.

[Natureguy85]

Legion at least is necessary for the peace solution. This still isn't plot integral, but it at least results in more EMS, which is the plot.

[themikefest]

I bet we will see something equivalent to Cerberus.  Or at least, pro-milky way faction.

I'd be ok with that. Humanity #1

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

Cerberus is an idea.  And ideas cannot be killed   

 

https://youtu.be/ca0HKixICck?t=141

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, I had enough. Could I have turned out to be wrong ultimately? Sure. But there was never one thing in the game to make me doubt TIM was Indoctrinated.

 

Yes, but it has no basis in anything, isn't explained, and more importantly, is an excuse to oppose you, reminiscent of Saren and Kenson (from Arrival).

 

You're ignoring evidence in favor of keeping open possibilities with no evidence. As I said above, the game could always have proved me wrong. But not once is there anything to suggest TIM isn't Indoctrinated.

I do this all the time when playing games.  Unresolved ambiguity isn't going to contradict my headcanon, and I want more space for my headcanon, so I employ a standard of evidence which maximizes the unresolved ambiguity.

 

I do this because it helps me enjoy the game more.

 

If I really needed to be right, I'd probably use a different standard of evidence.  But I don't need to be right - I just need not to be wrong.

You're opening up a possibility that doesn't exist in the universe. True, they could introduce one, but they don't and they don't offer any evidence that this is the case. Playing with Reaper tech leads to Indoctrination. There is no affirmative reason to believe TIM is an exception.

Nor is there a reason to believe he isn't.  That's my point.

 

Because the possibility might exist in the universe.  That we haven't seen it is not evidence that it doesn't exist.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The main plot does work on it's own, but the universe and decisions lose much of their weight.

Weight I didn't think it had anyway.

 

I had little or no emotional connection to most of the characters.  Again, Shepard did, and I can roleplay that, but I didn't have that connection.

 

Mordin is the only returning character I genuinely liked in the earlier games.

This was in reference to a third chapter being disconnected from the rest of the series being a bad thing. It's not subjective. Without a connection to what happened before, the earlier struggles become meaningless. We might as well have just started with the third chapter.

Its subjective, because that connection is subjective.

I'll get to your other post later. There's some good stuff there to address.

I only broke it into two because the forum wouldn't let me use that many blockquotes at a time.

[N7Jamaican]

I'd be ok with that. Humanity #1

 

Humanity first!