338 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

If there's a change, then they don't have the exact same plot.  How are you defining plot that you can change parts of it without it changing?

 

 

I don't think you (or BioWare) gets to define what the plot is.  The plot is literally everything that happens in the course of the game.

 

In the Rannoch example, the plot is "Shepard fights the Geth and a Reaper, then gets EMS for the war effort." Your choice affects what that EMS is, but it doesn't affect the plot because it progresses the same way no matter what choice you make. The choice is not plot relevant. Even though peace gets more EMS, there is plenty to go around so it's not necessary.

 

I didn't say it was pointless to do it.  I said it was pointless to try.

 

As I said before. while it is possible to create a response the creator didn't intend, media is constantly trying to make you feel a certain way.

 

Depth of focus effects.  Lens flare.  Attempts to relay information to the player directly, rather than simply to the player's character.

 

But we were taking about emotion.  If the game is trying to induce an emotional response in the player, then the game is acknowledging the player.  It can't attempt to do something to the player if it doesn't know the player is there.

 

So should games not have music then? That's purely for the player and to help create an emotional tone for the scene. Even in games that allow you to role play how your character, the designers write characters and scenes to create an emotional response in the player.

 

I do not dispute this.  ME had potential.  ME2 was wrong in nearly every respect, and when I asked the devs about that they told me explicitly that they were actively trying to make the game do the things I disliked.

 

The biggest problem was that ME2 lost all connection to the events of ME1. That and killing off Shepard and the Normandy only to immediately return both and do nothing with it.

[Natureguy85]

I do this all the time when playing games.  Unresolved ambiguity isn't going to contradict my headcanon, and I want more space for my headcanon, so I employ a standard of evidence which maximizes the unresolved ambiguity.

 

I do this because it helps me enjoy the game more.

 

If I really needed to be right, I'd probably use a different standard of evidence.  But I don't need to be right - I just need not to be wrong.

 

Ok, so you ignore evidence and invent things until the game explicitly states something. Well, to each their own.

 

Nor is there a reason to believe he isn't.  That's my point.

 

Because the possibility might exist in the universe.  That we haven't seen it is not evidence that it doesn't exist.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

Again, to even consider this possibility you have to ignore what has happened before. I can't fault you too much since Bioware did that a lot too. The "absence of evidence" line only works when there is no evidence. Here we have evidence to the contrary.

 

Weight I didn't think it had anyway.

 

I had little or no emotional connection to most of the characters.  Again, Shepard did, and I can roleplay that, but I didn't have that connection.

 

Mordin is the only returning character I genuinely liked in the earlier games.

 

Ok, so would you be as interested in Mordin's role in ME3 without ME2?

 

Its subjective, because that connection is subjective.

 

No, the connection between events in a later Act to those in a previous Act are not subjective. They either have something to do with them or they don't. The only connection ME2 has to ME is that the Collectors are slaves of the Reapers. The plot is totally disconnected.

[NKnight7]

Even though I liked Cerberus in ME2 and to a lesser extent in ME3 I doubt they'll be back in Andromeda. Another criminal group/organization will probably take there place, how good they are compared to Cerberus will have to wait to see.

[Dantriges]

 That and killing off Shepard and the Normandy only to immediately return both and do nothing with it.

 

Seems to me they just did it to justify the possibiility of a class and face change. And a reason why you are now with the three headed dudes now of course.

[Killroy]

Seems to me they just did it to justify the possibiility of a class and face change. And a reason why you are now with the three headed dudes now of course.

It was all about forcing you to join Cerberus. You can change class and appearance at the beginning of ME3 without getting killed and spaced.

[Natureguy85]

Seems to me they just did it to justify the possibiility of a class and face change. And a reason why you are now with the three headed dudes now of course.

 

You are correct, but gameplay doesn't need story justification nor is it a good excuse for crappy writing in a story driven game. If this was a type of game where we really didn't expect story, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue. The Cerberus railroading is still an issue even with them being the ones who brought you back.

 

Also, note that Shepard's death isn't the problem; the problems are the immediate revival and the lack of character development associated with it. It took until the Cerberus base on ME3 for Shepard and other characters to even really think about the implications. Even then we were quickly back to shooin' dudes.

[Dantriges]

I am aware of it. i would have preferred a simple retcon for this thermal clip stuff for example instead of this "this ammo is actually a heatsink and we refitted  every weapon in the galaxy with it. Even went to these shipwreck, replaced their weapons and flew away.

 

And yes this "i was dead but I got better" and everyone "Oh ok" way weird. I didn´t say it was a good idea.

 

It was all about forcing you to join Cerberus. You can change class and appearance at the beginning of ME3 without getting killed and spaced.

 

Which came afterwards. They stopped providing an explanation then. But that´s idle speculation on my part. When I played it the first time I was a bit surprised that I could change my face and class and thought, uh well could be that this Return from the Dead is some kind of in game explanation that my vanguard can be an engineer, now.

[Jay P]

FTFY.

Did I miss something?

Are they not talking about the Andromeda Galaxy?

[SilJeff]

We'll likely see the idea of Cerberus, but not the actual Cerberus from 1-3

[Nomen Mendax]

You are correct, but gameplay doesn't need story justification nor is it a good excuse for crappy writing in a story driven game. If this was a type of game where we really didn't expect story, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue. The Cerberus railroading is still an issue even with them being the ones who brought you back.

 

Also, note that Shepard's death isn't the problem; the problems are the immediate revival and the lack of character development associated with it. It took until the Cerberus base on ME3 for Shepard and other characters to even really think about the implications. Even then we were quickly back to shooin' dudes.

I'm in the process of replaying the whole trilogy and have just started ME2. Even though I know nothing comes of it, the beginning sets up all kinds of interesting questions like:

• What have they really done to Shepard?
• Why did they bring Shepard back from the dead? Surely it can't be just because he/she was very good at shooting things and persuading people to do what he/she wants by yelling ...
• Miranda says they didn't put a chip in Shepard's head - but is she lying?

And then they don't go anywhere with any of it

[Display Name Owner]

My hope is that Cerberus' presence in each and every single piece of ME content since the release of 2 (am I exaggerating? Or is that genuinely the case? I feel like it's genuinely the case) is just the writers trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the whole concept because they won't be using them in ME:A.

 

But I don't know. I mean, they really are everywhere. And TIM even made the whole "idea not organisation" thing opening up the way for a new breed of Cerberus to try to plant their flag in Andromeda. If that's going to happen though, please for god's sake can we not have them being main antagonists?

[Ahriman]

I'm in the process of replaying the whole trilogy and have just started ME2. Even though I know nothing comes of it the beginning sets up all kinds of interesting questions like:

• What have they really done to Shepard?
• Why did they bring Shepard back from the dead? Surely it can't be just because he/she was very good at shooting things and persuading people to do what he/she wants by yelling ...
• Miranda says they didn't put a chip in Shepard's head - but is she lying?

And then they don't go anywhere with any of it

Because the more you think about it the dumber it gets. So they just wanted to give wow-effect and be done with it.

[Iakus]

Because the more you think about it the dumber it gets. So they just wanted to give wow-effect and be done with it.

Very much this.

 

When you push a button, something awesome has to happen.

[SolNebula]

Am I the only one that feels that provided some small changes you can play ME1 and then safely jump directly to ME3 without even noticing too much. Not debating the game itself (ME2 was fun and had my favorite DLC LoSB) but I just feel the entire working with Cerberus in that game is absolutely worthless. I feel better just skipping the game and move to the third chapter as you are not achieving anything in that game other than making your next enemy stronger.

[Nomen Mendax]

Am I the only one that feels that provided some small changes you can play ME1 and then safely jump directly to ME3 without even noticing too much. Not debating the game itself (ME2 was fun and had my favorite DLC LoSB) but I just feel the entire working with Cerberus in that game is absolutely worthless. I feel better just skipping the game and move to the third chapter as you are not achieving anything in that game other than making your next enemy stronger.

No, you aren't the only one. I enjoyed playing ME2 but the plot is pretty stupid, and doesn't tie in that much to the other two games. I like the ME series, and the games are fun to play, but I think I like them more for what they could have been rather than what they really are (if that makes any sense).

[God]

But I don't know. I mean, they really are everywhere. And TIM even made the whole "idea not organisation" thing opening up the way for a new breed of Cerberus to try to plant their flag in Andromeda. If that's going to happen though, please for god's sake can we not have them being main antagonists?

 

Hell, can we have the option to actually sympathize, ally with, and even join said group?

 

I was tired of constantly getting shat on in ME3 for supporting and promoting Cerberus. It's just not good writing over how anvilicious BW was in ME3.

[Vegeta 77]

I would rather not see them ruturn as a major faction but maybe someone who defected. Its time for a new enemy faction.

[FKA_Servo]

Am I the only one that feels that provided some small changes you can play ME1 and then safely jump directly to ME3 without even noticing too much. Not debating the game itself (ME2 was fun and had my favorite DLC LoSB) but I just feel the entire working with Cerberus in that game is absolutely worthless. I feel better just skipping the game and move to the third chapter as you are not achieving anything in that game other than making your next enemy stronger.

 

You are not the only one.

[Farangbaa]

ME2 is the best game of the trilogy.

Which makes it all the more sad that it's story is so meaningless to just about anything else... unless you pick up an ME2 romance I suppose.

[WildOrchid]

Frick Cerberus, seriously. Worst thing that ever happened to Mass Effect.

[FKA_Servo]

ME2 is the best game of the trilogy.

Which makes it all the more sad that it's story is so meaningless to just about anything else... unless you pick up an ME2 romance I suppose.

 

Like Thane, or Jacob, or just about everyone. Seems like unless you romance Liara/VS, the whole thing just sort of fizzles out.

 

I don't think ME2 is the best game of the trilogy, but it was alright until ME3 came out and somehow made it worse.

 

ME1 is still solid, in spite of everything (including its unfortunate gameplay).

[Killroy]

ME2 is the best game of the trilogy.

Which makes it all the more sad that it's story is so meaningless to just about anything else... unless you pick up an ME2 romance I suppose.

The story of ME2 isn't just pointless, it's also lousy.
"Dirty dozen, sooehside mishun, derrrrr!"
It's a really stupid game(propped up by improved gameplay and some cool characters) so I don't know how Cerberus being stupid snuck up on anyone in ME3. They were stupid 5 minutes into ME2.

[God]

Frick Cerberus, seriously. Worst thing that ever happened to Mass Effect.

 

Narrative overuse and constant demonization, yes.

 

Actual lore utility, no.

[God]

The story of ME2 isn't just pointless, it's also lousy.
"Dirty dozen, sooehside mishun, derrrrr!"
It's a really stupid game(propped up by improved gameplay and some cool characters) so I don't know how Cerberus being stupid snuck up on anyone in ME3. They were stupid 5 minutes into ME2.

 

This really isn't all that objectively true.

 

Thanks a lot for coaxing me out of the shell, but I'm one of the people who does defend ME2's place in the series and the role given to the player.

 

I know ME2 is rather weak narratively, but it did leave a basis of structure for ME3 to follow... which ME3 never followed up on.

 

As well, you'll have to define for me how Cerberus was stupid 5 minutes into ME2. Seemed like they were the only ones who had a plan for anything going on at all.

[Killroy]

This really isn't all that objectively true.
 
Thanks a lot for coaxing me out of the shell, but I'm one of the people who does defend ME2's place in the series and the role given to the player.
 
I know ME2 is rather weak narratively, but it did leave a basis of structure for ME3 to follow... which ME3 never followed up on.
 
As well, you'll have to define for me how Cerberus was stupid 5 minutes into ME2. Seemed like they were the only ones who had a plan for anything going on at all.

"We spent $$10,000,000,000,000 to bring a single person back from the dead. Also, we, a secretive organization operating in the shadows, slap our logo on everything. And we have limitless resources and personnel. And we want humans to dominate the entire galaxy! But we don't hate aliens or anything..."

 

After ME1 Cerberus is entirely stupid and the fact that BioWare shoved them down our throats is, to me, proof that they had no idea what they were doing with the franchise.