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Difficulty in user-made modules


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#51
Grani

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BTW, I perused through your module changelog quickly, had some concerns/confusion if you're interested in hearing them -- but probably would be better suited for a feedback thread or PMs I imagine?

 

I'll send you a PM in a minute. In fact, the main purpose of making this small PvP module was to get feedback on the modifications and overall balance, so I'll gladly hear your opinions (or anyone else's for that matter).



#52
MrZork

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What do you consider to be interesting mage tactics? I don't see how you could consider "Spam X spell until the boss randomly just instantly dies, which could be the first cast or the 40th" interesting mage tactics, no? So presumably you mean something besides random instant death effects.


Instant death spells and disabling tactics are legit for mages (as legit as dev crit, I would say). But, I have no issues with disabling auto-fail on 1 so that a couple stacks of some scroll isn't a win button. Ditto for those that modify certain spells' effects against bosses so that they are useful but not effectively the end of the fight against a boss as the often are now. E.g., instant death is replaced by losing a large fraction of total HP. E.g., the duration of paralysis / petrification / etc. reduced to 5-ish rounds instead of some huge amount that allows a toon who otherwise can't really do any damage to plink away in total safety until the boss is dead. And so on. Particularly with some flavor text that indicates what's going on ("You can see that X is slowly regaining control of his movements...") That way, the boss fights can still be a challenge and not a matter of spamming this or that until a save is failed and then it's over, but at the same time, bosses aren't immune to everything to the point where half the mage's arsenal is just a list of spells that do nothing.

As I say, there is nothing wrong with DPS tactics if that's what someone enjoys or if as an option. But, if that's all the mage is reduced to, then it doesn't end up seeming especially mage-like to me.

#53
Tchos

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Me:
Tchos:
Me:
Tchos:

Good day, sirrah, good day.

 

Oh, now we're parodying the opposition's arguments, are we?  You're a fine piece of work, you are.  How about you stop quoting lines from me when you can't seem to distinguish form from meaning?



#54
Eternal Phoenix

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Another heated debate in the NWN section and Tchos is at the centre of it again! I'm shocked! /sarcasm  smiley-rolleyes010.gif

 

Just to release this thread's tension a little... regarding the whole Warrior VS Mage debate:

 

The reality:

 

One Warrior vs Five Mages

 

:D

 

The whole problem with user made modules is that enemy encounters next to the scripting can be some of the hardest parts to create. Understanding the time it takes to create a truly balanced but challenging game is what made me appreciate a game like Dark Souls all the more. The developers really have to make sure to account for your class, level and the route you choose to take and ensure that no matter what the game remains not just challenging but balanced too.

 

The problem I see with many NWN modules nowadays is that they are either too hard or too easy.



#55
MagicalMaster

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Instant death spells and disabling tactics are legit for mages (as legit as dev crit, I would say).


...*twitch*...Dev Crit...*twitch*...

By that logic I'd say instant death spells and disabling tactics should be removed from the game ;)

(note: while I actually do think instant death spells should be removed from the game I don't object to (weaker than default) disabling effects)

That way, the boss fights can still be a challenge and not a matter of spamming this or that until a save is failed and then it's over, but at the same time, bosses aren't immune to everything to the point where half the mage's arsenal is just a list of spells that do nothing.


For the change of instant death spells doing a large fraction...how does that really help? Seems that either the fraction is large enough that it's worth still fishing for those 1s (or lower rolls) or it's so small that damage spells will do more. I could easily see making something like Wail of the Banshee a Necromancy version of Meteor Swarm (Fortitude save or take 20d6 damage, 10d6 on successful save) but doing a percentage of HP on failed save seems problematic.

(note that Meteor Swarm is pathetic by default and should be buffed, talking general principles here)

Regarding 5 rounds duration on CC...does that really change anything either? Instead of "Spam IGMS 20 times to win" it becomes "Hit boss with Bigby 6, use IGMS 9 times, hit boss with Bigby 6, use IGMS 9 times, hit boss with Bigy 6, use IGMS 2 times, win." I suppose the "main" benefit is that you can allow the boss to do a lot more damage (because the melee characters have better AC/HP/etc) and force the mage to CC or die. Of course, in that case we're requiring the mage to use certain spells which you might find to be a problem.

Oh, now we're parodying the opposition's arguments, are we?  You're a fine piece of work, you are.  How about you stop quoting lines from me when you can't seem to distinguish form from meaning?


I wish it was parodying. In the quote you "completely disagreed with" I specifically mentioned the "Force Field the tank for constant invulnerability" bit (among several other things). I then mentioned it again (with the several other things). You then said "It's safe to say that your examples either weren't present or noticeable in my playthroughs, or they didn't bother me."

Which was followed by "It would be a lie for me to say 'DA:O had some significant balance issues and broken gameplay systems', because I didn't feel any such balance trouble, and if there were any broken gameplay systems, I didn't experience them."

I pointed out the tank invulnerability *again* and you said "Whether someone chooses to seek and exploit game mechanics is no concern of mine. I don't do it, because I would get no satisfaction from it, so I can't say from experience whether it is as you say. Hypothetically, though, if a thing exists which is broken, then I agree that thing is broken. I'm not concerned or interested in "balance" in these games, though. This is a team-based game like D&D, and D&D is certainly not balanced."

So...you agree that the mechanic I've now mentioned at least *three* times prior to this post is broken. But despite that *fact* (and many other factual examples I listed), you're *still* apparently unwilling to agree that DA:O had significant balance issues and broken gameplay systems. Even when you apparently don't care about whether the game is balanced in the first place (so admitting it's not balanced isn't some problem for you) and apparently don't care about trying to play optimally (which means you're acknowledging that I have a much better understanding of the potential balance issues and broken gameplay systems).

Doctor: I fear our patient just died.
Nurse: Nonsense, he's perfectly fine.
Doctor: Er...he's not breathing.
Nurse: So I saw, but he's not dead.
Doctor: And his heartbeat has stopped.
Nurse: That's true, but he's perfectly fine.
Doctor: And he has no brain activity.
Nurse: Yeah, yeah, so what?
Doctor: ...

The problem I see with many NWN modules nowadays is that they are either too hard or too easy.


I'd be curious what you think of a low level module (warrior types only) and a high level module I made. I suspect you'll find them easy if you enjoy Dark Souls but they're harder than most NWN modules.

Though I technically don't know what you mean by "too hard or too easy" in this case -- personally I didn't even find the hardest module other than ones I've made (the Swordflight series by Rogueknight) very difficult in most cases...and that was while intentionally playing the worst possible character (a Druid 5/Shifter X, according to the author). But I'm also not most people -- I know a lot of people complained that Swordflight was way too hard.

#56
Tchos

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I wish it was parodying.

Doctor: I fear our patient just died.
Nurse: Nonsense, he's perfectly fine.
Doctor: Er...he's not breathing.
Nurse: So I saw, but he's not dead.
Doctor: And his heartbeat has stopped.
Nurse: That's true, but he's perfectly fine.
Doctor: And he has no brain activity.
Nurse: Yeah, yeah, so what?
Doctor: ...

 

Tell you what -- since you like these parodies so much, here's one that I think is a pretty accurate representation:

 

MagicalMaster: The combat in DA:O is terrible, stupid, and headache-inducing.

Tchos: I didn't think so. I loved it.  It was fun, even for a non-optimal character.

MagicalMaster: IMPOSSIBLE!  It is an objective fact that it's terrible!  I demand that you agree!

Tchos: I'm not going to agree that something's terrible, stupid, and headache-inducing if it wasn't that way for me.

MagicalMaster: How dare you ignore force fields?  That proves that I'm right!

Werelynx: Agree to disagree, guys!

MagicalMaster: This is an objective fact!  There will be no disagreeing!



#57
MagicalMaster

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Tell you what -- since you like these parodies so much, here's one that I think is a pretty accurate representation:

Tchos: I'm not going to agree that something's terrible, stupid, and headache-inducing if it wasn't that way for me.


Ah, but that isn't what I asked you to agree to. I asked you to agree to

"DA:O had some significant balance issues and broken gameplay systems...but I liked the combat overall in spite of the flaws present and thoroughly enjoyed the game as a whole."

I've never objected to you *enjoying* the game. I've objected to you refusing to *acknowledge* the existence of objective facts that made *other* people unhappy...even if you didn't care/notice while playing.

#58
Tchos

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Ah, I was missing a part.  Here it is, then:

 

MagicalMaster: Sign this paper testifying that the combat is terrible and broken, including the parts that you didn't actually do or experience yourself, and I will stop posting walls of text about it.

Tchos: I'm not testifying to things that I didn't experience.  I will give you that if what you say about this particular thing is true, then I agree that's broken.

MagicalMaster: Not good enough!  *posts more walls of text*

 

This is all about me enjoying the game.



#59
MagicalMaster

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Tchos: I'm not testifying to things that I didn't experience.  I will give you that if what you say about this particular thing is true, then I agree that's broken.


So me pointing it out, videos being available online, the info being available on wikis and other websites...nope, not good enough. *You* haven't experienced it yourself.

And you've taken all this trouble to protest your astounding ignorance rather than take 5-10 minutes to verify what I've mentioned...why?

*wall of text*

#60
Tchos

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And you've taken all this trouble to protest your astounding ignorance rather than take 5-10 minutes to verify what I've mentioned...why?

 

Why do I choose not to look for ways to stop enjoying a game I enjoy, and instead continue speaking to an astoundingly arrogant and obstinate individual?  Well, the answer to the former should be obvious, but the latter is because you won't let anything go and just snipe around with snarky little comments if I don't.

 

What I wonder is why it's so important to you that I, personally, share your hatred of the game.



#61
MagicalMaster

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Why do I choose not to look for ways to stop enjoying a game I enjoy, and instead continue speaking to an astoundingly arrogant and obstinate individual?


When I look at my daily "to do" list I generally don't include "Remain ignorant at all costs" on it. But I sincerely apologize if you learning that you can chain Force Field on a tank to keep them constantly invulnerable ruined your DA:O experience. Ignorance is bliss from what I've been told, right?

What I wonder is why it's so important to you that I, personally, share your hatred of the game.


"DA:O had some significant balance issues and broken gameplay systems...but I liked the combat overall in spite of the flaws present and thoroughly enjoyed the game as a whole."

Yes, I obviously really want you to share my hatred. Which is why I used terms like "liked the combat overall" and "in spite of the flaws" along with the word "enjoyed" in that above sentence. Because I'm trying to get you to hate the game. You earn a gold star.

#62
Tchos

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Good.  Glad we agree now.  Now you can let it rest.


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#63
MayCaesar

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I don't want to get into one more argument which will probably end up in a battle, as most arguments do. I just want to point out two fundamental problems we have here.

1) Terms like "balance problems" and "broken systems" really depend on perspective. There is no definition of "perfect balance", as everyone prefers a different balance. There is no a commonly accepted standard of what a good balance is, and as such "balance problems" out of context doesn't have much meaning. And in context, it is confusing, since everyone has a different context they argue from.

In other words, what one player may dislike about the balance, another may like, and vise versa. Talking about some objective problems doesn't make much sense.

2) Facts are cunning beasts. It is always possible to handpick some video illustrating one's point and say, "This proves I am right". Another person then may handpick another video, illustrating the opposite scenario. To make a linked video into a relevant argument, one must prove that this video shows regular scenario, not a, extreme deviation from the norm. For example, in our disagreement on the balance of warrior vs mage in NWN games, you can link a video of your Sorcerer slaughtering entire room of enemies with a couple of AOE spells. I then can link a video of me dying to a single melee warrior in arena in Mysteries of Westgate (although it is NWN2, similar balance notes apply), since he hits so hard, my Wizard fails all concentration checks and can't cast a single spell before dying in 5 seconds. Both are scenarios that occur in games, and both support our arguments. However, you say that the first scenario proves that mages in NWN are strong, while I say that the latter scenario occuring in my games makes me dislike the way mages are implemented in NWN. Both claims are reasonable, and it is a matter of taste of what is important for you. For me, the second scenario happening from time to time is too annoying for the first scenario also happening to redeem it.

 

Ultimately, all these arguments are reduced to what is important for the player, or, specifically, what they like/dislike about the game. I liked DAO combat way more than, pretty much, any other Bioware/Obsidian team-based combat (I liked Mass Effect 2/3 combat even more, but that is a different beast entirely), and if there were balance specifics I disliked, they were not significant enough for me to like the combat less. I played all major classes in DAO for my protagonist (mage healer, DPS mage, warrior-tank, rogue-archer, DW rogue), and I didn't notice any of them to be particularly harder or easier to play in any scenarios. While in NWN games some battles really made me wish I was a different class. Morag battle as Arcane Archer with Daelan in my group probably killed half cells in my body, while for a well built Wizard or Sorcerer it is a cakewalk. Oppositely, fighting Desther as Wizard/Sorcerer must be a huge pain, while my Fighter didn't have much trouble there.