You might want to watch the most Renegade save the base ending to ME2....if the look on his face doesn't say "I am the bad guy"...I don;t know what does.
It does, but I always thought that seemed way too sudden and abrupt. I can see how Bioware was already planning to convert TIM to a bad guy by ME2's ending (just when Mac took over, sigh) but it always seemed so abrupt to me how Shepard is suddenly antagonistic towards TIM, especially when you keep the base.
It does, but I always thought that seemed way too sudden and abrupt. I can see how Bioware was already planning to convert TIM to a bad guy by ME2's ending (just when Mac took over, sigh) but it always seemed so abrupt to me how Shepard is suddenly antagonistic towards TIM, especially when you keep the base.
Maybe if the story had been wrapped up properly there would be no need for speculating. Everybody agrees there is a mole in STG but we are just left hanging. What is the aftermath? How does the Salarians - the galaxy's espionage masters - react?
But that goes against their interests. It works very well for them to have Shepard scoring successes against the Reapers to keep them focused on Shepard. TiM even says something like this later on to Kai Leng. Unless TiM has made post-war Krogan extinction a priority I see it as a baffling waste of resources and stirring up hornets nests. Why would Cerberus attract attention from the STG for no gain?
TIM and Cerberus aren't an entirely separate entity from the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. They were already indoctrinated and under Reaper control, that much was clear as early as Mars. The Reapers just allowed them the illusion of free will to make them more effective minions.
It was in the Reapers' best interest to sabotage the genophage cure, so Cerberus tries to stop it.
TIM and Cerberus aren't an entirely separate entity from the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. They were already indoctrinated and under Reaper control, that much was clear as early as Mars. The Reapers just allowed them the illusion of free will to make them more effective minions.
It was in the Reapers' best interest to sabotage the genophage cure, so Cerberus tries to stop it.
Indoctrination isn't mind control, though, TIM is ostensibly opposing the Reapers by seeking to Control them; so you can't have his goals perfectly align with the Reapers or else the whole thing just comes off as contrived.
I think that's where the problem comes in.
TIM isn't particularly serving his own Indoctrination goal half the time, he only does so when it's convenient for the gun-play. To Control the Reapers he thinks he needs the Crucible and admits to that as early as Mars. Wasting so much in the way of time and troops and supplies all across the galaxy to turn everyone against him doesn't gain him anything for this goal, it just sets up the multiplayer. You think he would be assisting any attempts to further the Crucible's construction, getting himself further ingrained into the project, while undermining the organic's intended use of it to further his own goals from the inside (which ultimately helps the Reapers, so it's all good on that front). This even plays to what we know of Cerberus's strengths as a faction versus being the mechanical equivalent to the Reapers.
And attacking the entire galaxy would be fine, if his goal was different or he was the traditional Reaper patsy that we've seen. But instead the game fumbles his goals and motivations while hand waving it all away with the Indoctrination card. I get that he was researching the whole Control thing at the secret base but his own conversations admit to that only being half the equation, with the Crucible being the other half, the Crucible that he seems pretty intent on foiling at every turn.
Hmm... if the coup had succeeded and Udina was made the head of the Council, he could have funneled more resources into the Crucible. Maybe that was his plan there.
His plan was to order the fleets to help Earth. It's in a codex entry 
I wonder how much power a head of council actually has. The respective governments are still there and seems the councillors are beholden to them. After the ciuncil meeting where they presented the Crucible designs, Shepard said that his new strategy is to go beyond the council and talk to the governents directly. OTOH it seems that the councillors are doing the galaxy wide decisions, when you meet them.
Right, that was Udina's plan, but what about TIM's? Once Udina was in power TIM could have potentially used him to do something else.His plan was to order the fleets to help Earth. It's in a codex entry
Right, that was Udina's plan, but what about TIM's? Once Udina was in power TIM could have potentially used him to do something else.
Oh. sorry, I misunderstood you then, I thought the "he" part in your post was referring to Udina once more and not TIM.
Since Shepard even asks them. Was there even a reason?
Salarian informant gave them the info that cured krogan female was at the STG base. TIM knows that her dying would cause intense heat between the turians, krogan, salarians, and Alliance. Them being at each other's throats weakens Cerberus opposition, TIM has more time to develop troops and combat reapers his way.
You don´t need your council races opposition at each other´s throats to weaken them, when there is the unstoppable Reaper juggernaut which is attacking most council colonies and homeworlds at the same time. Lay low and watch the others take the hits until you are ready. Unless you are secretly Team Reaper of course.
Salarian informant gave them the info that cured krogan female was at the STG base. TIM knows that her dying would cause intense heat between the turians, krogan, salarians, and Alliance. Them being at each other's throats weakens Cerberus opposition, TIM has more time to develop troops and combat reapers his way.
I guess this was TIM's reasoning but at this point, his mind must have already been seriously messed up by indoctrination because this kind of reasoning is a mess:
- As stated earlier this only makes sense if Cerberus is building their own crucible. If they are not, then they should be just as interested in making Shepard's plans work as Shep him/herself. After all, TIM acknowledges that he needs the crucible to control the reapers.
- If TIM wants to build a second crucible only with Cerberus recourses, he has even more delusions of grandeur than we already thought he has. It takes the efforts of an entire united galaxy to build the first one. I get that Mac Walters loves Cerberus and wanted them to be on par with everyone else but this is a bt much.
- Even if we assume that he can build his own crucible, it is questionable that sabotaging an alliance between the frogan and the turians is in his best interest. After all, the biggest single power in the galaxy at this point are the reapers. They are the ones who need to be opposed and that works best if Palaven holds out. Also, there is nothing to be gained by TIM from having Palaven fall. The turians are not planning to hunt Cerberus when given a respit from defending their home world. The Primarch only offers help once we deploy the crucible. The reapers on the other hand seem to oppose Cerberus directly (see Sanctuary).
So apparently the reapers cranked up TIMs indoctrination to prevent him from thinking straight, which is a bit cheap writing but not implausible. After all, TIM's mental decay clearly already starts to progress from the beginning of ME3 onward.
One thing I am curious about though: What is this talk about the Salarian insider that Cerberus has in the STG? Is this actually mentioned in game (can't remember)? Because I would have to ask: What could possibly motivate a salarian to betray the entire female krogan issue to Cerberus of all people? Mordin (or his substitute) was the informant for the krogan and he had his reasons, which are explained but Cerberus? I guess that salarian must have been indoctrinated as well?
The only possible explanation I have, when we exclude the "Indoctrinated, hurr" is that Tim is still butthurt over Shanxi and want´s to see Palaven burn. Totally crazy and out of proportion but uh well, it´s TIM. 
Since the Crucible seems sorta key to TIM's plan in the final conversation, his behavior doesn't make a whole lotta sense unless Cerberus was building their own version of the Crucible somewhere, and he the was trying to sabotage the Alliance and Council to they couldn't use their Crucible to destroy the Reapers. Or, maybe he just figured out near the end that the Crucible could be used to further his plans?
Here is the thing.
He only mentions the Crucible AFTER he unlocked Vendetta, too late after he got more indoctrinated. So he probably got that he needed the Crucible from it.
The video with him and Kai Leng in Cerberus HQ reveals more of TIM's plans.
It does, but I always thought that seemed way too sudden and abrupt. I can see how Bioware was already planning to convert TIM to a bad guy by ME2's ending (just when Mac took over, sigh) but it always seemed so abrupt to me how Shepard is suddenly antagonistic towards TIM, especially when you keep the base.
ME1 gives you plenty of reason not to trust TIM, whatever he may claim his intentions are in bringing Shepard back. Plus, whatever you do with the base, he argues that it's about "saving lives" when trying to convince Shepard and then switches to talking about "human dominance" afterwards, so a Shepard of any disposition has reason to think that he's being less than honest.
So where does that leave Sur'Kesh? There are three possibilies. The first is that he wants the cure for himself, and rummaging around in a dead krogan might be enough for him. Why would he want them? For the same reason as the coup attempt, a big Cerberus-controlled army (still in his mind to take on the Reapers at this point). The second is related, that he doesn't want to risk Shepard getting all the attention and getting enough help to squash Cerberus so they can get on with fighting the Reapers. The final idea is he's playing the long game, that he shares the dalatrass's views about the krogan and how they'll threaten his human dominance vision if there is a post-Reaper time. For the Reapers is means that the galaxy is still fighting itself instead of them and weakens their attempts at unifying against the Reapers.
The first one is unlikely since one of the Cerberus goons states they're here to kill Eve, so I'm assuming a cure is not TIMs goal at all. And the coup attempt was Udina's doing to get to the Council's fleet to send help for Earth.
I think your second point is a good one but I am more on the side of he wants the galaxy to be divided, and not risk them being united in regards to the Crucible. This may or may not have to do with indoctrination.
I guess he knows he likely needs the Crucible for his own plan to control the Reapers, but if the Reapers subtly control him so he's thinking he's doing the right thing, shattering Shepard's tries to unite the galaxy will benefit the Reapers while TIM on the other hand could still think he can control them differently. Maybe because of the experiments at Sanctuary.
One thing I am curious about though: What is this talk about the Salarian insider that Cerberus has in the STG? Is this actually mentioned in game (can't remember)? Because I would have to ask: What could possibly motivate a salarian to betray the entire female krogan issue to Cerberus of all people? Mordin (or his substitute) was the informant for the krogan and he had his reasons, which are explained but Cerberus? I guess that salarian must have been indoctrinated as well?
Racist sentiments or downright fear of the Krogans maybe? Probably thought Cerberus could sabotage the cure somehow (which they almost do).
Since Shepard even asks them. Was there even a reason?
If he gets hold of Eve, then he has a very powerful bargaining chip with the Krogan; he could even secure an alliance with them in exchange for the genophage cure.
I guess TIM was so confident that his plan to control the Reapers (the plan he didn't actually have at that point yet in the game, yeah, that plan) that he was already thinking about the state of the galaxy post-Reaper, and he thought rampant Krogan were more trouble than they were worth.
I guess TIM was so confident that his plan to control the Reapers (the plan he didn't actually have at that point yet in the game, yeah, that plan) that he was already thinking about the state of the galaxy post-Reaper, and he thought rampant Krogan were more trouble than they were worth.
He was not necessarily thinking post-Reaper; if he could secure the Krogan's support, he could either use them as extra troops, or keep them out of the war completely, making life difficult for the Alliance and the Turians, hobbling their retailiation against the Reapers. This would also give him time to wait for Horizon to make the breakthrough he was looking for.
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