99 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I agree but why not just cut them because they suck?

Oh, sure, that's fine. I just want us to be realistic about design options. For instance, if the Citadel item retrieval missions went away Elcor Extraction wouldn't magically have become a mission the size of, say, Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, unless we're talking about some kind of fantasy ME3 budget too. The changes would have been less stuff to do on the Citadel, less things to look for on the missions, fewer interactions on the galaxy map, and maybe another N7 mission if they could get another free map from the MP team.

DAI's a more complex case. If a lot of these sort of quests go away, does the rationale behind the map design collapse? And would that be a good thing? (I'd vote yes, but I'm no fan of RPG exploration in the first place.)

[N7Jamaican]

You've stopped doing the sidequests, right?

 

Yep. I stopped doing all sidequests in the game, but even the main story quest is boring me.  Only thing that is keeping me around is the gameplay.

[O'Voutie O'Rooney]

Sidequests should for the most part at least be relevant to the status of the main character and his/her relationships. For example, if the main character is a police officer and the main narrative involves solving some big crime or tracking down a villain, it makes sense for the main character as a police officer to be doing other detective work that is unrelated to that case. It would also make sense for him to do things to help his friends inside and outside of work, and to engage in a few occasional random acts of questing. It would not make sense for the main character to spend a whole bunch of time talking to random people on the street and solving their myriad of problems for the majority of the game time. I do think that some collection and flag-planting sidequests (like those in DAI) are put there to get the player to explore the entire game map and to activate all of the content.

[Farangbaa]

Oh, sure, that's fine. I just want us to be realistic about design options. For instance, if the Citadel item retrieval missions went away Elcor Extraction wouldn't magically have become a mission the size of, say, Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, unless we're talking about some kind of fantasy ME3 budget too. The changes would have been less stuff to do on the Citadel, less things to look for on the missions, fewer interactions on the galaxy map, and maybe another N7 mission if they could get another free map from the MP team.

DAI's a more complex case. If a lot of these sort of quests go away, does the rationale behind the map design collapse? And would that be a good thing? (I'd vote yes, but I'm no fan of RPG exploration in the first place.)

I cried.

[wolfhowwl]

Oh, sure, that's fine. I just want us to be realistic about design options. For instance, if the Citadel item retrieval missions went away Elcor Extraction wouldn't magically have become a mission the size of, say, Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, unless we're talking about some kind of fantasy ME3 budget too. The changes would have been less stuff to do on the Citadel, less things to look for on the missions, fewer interactions on the galaxy map, and maybe another N7 mission if they could get another free map from the MP team.

DAI's a more complex case. If a lot of these sort of quests go away, does the rationale behind the map design collapse? And would that be a good thing? (I'd vote yes, but I'm no fan of RPG exploration in the first place.)

 

Oh of course.

 

I would like BioWare to cut grind like this not because there is a mission's worth of resources spent here but because it just isn't fun or interesting. Blatant padding with low-cost filler also just adds a shoddy feeling to the game.

 

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

ME1 for example, did this extremely badly. There was simply no justification for your character to be doing many of the sidequests given the story. The central plot is telling us that there is a concrete and immediate threat to the galaxy, and you always have a direct lead on that threat. So why would Shepard ever do any of the sidequests (or exploration for that matter) on non-plot worlds? There simply isn't the time to do them. The ones that you can do while advancing the plot - say, for example, that guy on Feros who asks you to pick up some data from the Exo-Geni building, is fine, as you're in there anyway, and it'll only take a couple of minutes - but anything involving diverting from trying to stop Saren (with the possible exception of the Geth in Armstrong, as you could believe they were connected) makes no sense what so ever.

They work so long as Shepard doesn't trust the leads she's getting. Shepard could plausibly be searching those uncharted world's for evidence of Saren.

But I'll agree that urgency can be a problem. I'd simply suggest making the main quest rely less on urgency.

As for how I would fix it, well, the obvious answer is to put periods in the main plot where you don't know exactly what you have to do to advance it. To have times when you have to go out exploring, looking for clues, doing sidequests in the hope of finding information (and conversely, when you do have an immediate lead, you should have to follow it up rather than pissing about helping people with their life problems).

That's basically what I was suggesting for the plot overall.

[Fizzie Panda]

Or at least give us side quests that are interesting and MEATY.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, that's a real issue, but it's easy enough to not have the game work like that.

Personally, I like not knowing.

[LordSwagley]

Thing is, even if you throw out all the collection quests you probably won't free up enough zots for one high-quality sidequest.

Then cut the transgender turian gaylien with daddy issues romance or something. I would gladly sacrifice some romances for a few quests that don't revolve around fetching some peasants ram/ring/ingredient, killimg X amount of X's, going on text-based war-table "missions", collecting bottles of booze, etc... hopefully these next-gen consoles can fit more under the hood and Bioware takes advantage of it. Sorry don't mean to rant.

[AlanC9]

Personally, I like not knowing.

I like not knowing in some kinds of plot too, but I think it won't work well in cases where the length of the game becomes random depending on the path the player takes through the content. Say, if a player couldn't tell that ME3 Priority missions advance time while other missions do not. An unlucky player could end up with a ten hour game even if he wanted to play more of the content. Not a problem for games that can continue past the end of the main plot -- like ME2, Morrowind, etc. -- but a lot of plots can't work that way without incurring big costs or forgoing dialogue consistency.

@LordSwagley; sure, that could work. If you're looking for stuff to cut in order to make more big sidequests, you need to go where the zots are. Fetch quests aren't the place.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I like not knowing in some kinds of plot too, but I think it won't work well in cases where the length of the game becomes random depending on the path the player takes through the content. Say, if a player couldn't tell that ME3 Priority missions advance time while other missions do not. An unlucky player could end up with a ten hour game even if he wanted to play more of the content.

If we're only allowed to play the game once, and not allowed to go back and reload, I could see that being a problem.

 

But neither of those things is even close to true.

[Annos Basin]

But I'll agree that urgency can be a problem. I'd simply suggest making the main quest rely less on urgency.

I wouldn't mind if certain sidequests after you've started them and during playing them feel urgent or timed. Otherwise I like the approach where you should prepare for the big one and start it when you feel you're ready. I'd rather not have the story turn into tragedy because I was enjoying my game (=taking my time).

 

...

Also, I don't mind I love it when I can intervene lives of passbyers, and approve or disapprove them. Personally I don't care if they won't affect the main plot. The whole world (which has been one of the selling points in Mass Effect, at least I bought it after someone I trust praised its world as interesting one) and how individuals in it might think and conflict and be constructive and all that jazz is obviously part of the story. Interaction makes your character part of that world too. Though there should be choices on how to respond, if at all.

 

It's all about npcs. ME3 ending works for me because I can't help thinking Chorban and pals were probably involved in making it go the way it did. What would ME2 have been without meeting the biotic god? DAO is cool because the grand oak with his mad hermit live in its world.

 

I'm not huge collector personality myself... Though practically I do it if they ask me to collect something, hoping it won't take too much time. Just finding random treasures (credits preferred over omnigel material  ) if you run around studying all places would seem simple yet rewarding alternative?

[AdmiralBoneToPic]

Please, no! I absolutely hate when I think I'm beginning a little sidequest and end up starting a big "point of no return" main quest  >.<

 

 

About the sidequests thing, I do hate "get me 10 of XYZ" fetch quests. But I absolutely LOVE a mini-plot sidequest: Something small that starts like a simple crime scene investigation and ends up with you uncovering an entire network of organ black market.

 

Im ok with fetch quests tbh. BUT only on one condition: that they don't come across as a fetch quest. By that i mean the games that do side quests really well(ME2(though it didnt have many), Oblivion & TW3 more recently etc) know how to disguise this, know how to add in that lil extra bit of flavour, to season things up, put a fair bit of meat on the bones if you will so that it doesn't feel like it and that you the player don't really realise your doing a fetch quest in the first place. Its all about the execution and detail they're willing to put into it.

 

Though me too. I agree with you. i think Mass Effect 2 in general(though the sidequests on Illium in Mass Effect 2 were really good at doing that especially) perfected that sidequest style. I like my sidequests to build upon & expand the detail/intrcusies of the world too. Bioware really hit it outta the park on the sidequests in that game. I'd like ME:A to take inspiration from it on this issue..

[PhroXenGold]

They work so long as Shepard doesn't trust the leads she's getting. Shepard could plausibly be searching those uncharted world's for evidence of Saren.

But I'll agree that urgency can be a problem. I'd simply suggest making the main quest rely less on urgency.
That's basically what I was suggesting for the plot overall.

 

Perhaps. But even then, Shep should really be checking out a lead she considers unreliable over simply wandering out into the unknown and hoping for the best. If it had been something more like: "these are our best leads [the actual plot missions], but there are some indications of suspicious activity in <systems X, Y and Z> [which turn out to be side quests]" (or someone else telling you the latter part) then a Shep who doesn't really trust the Council to give her good advice might investigate the latter first. But to go somewhere you have no evidence could be connected to your goal over somewhere you have some evidence is is downright stupid.

 

For some reason I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but I think ME2 did this aspect very well. There were significant periods of time when you didn't have any leads on Collector activity and were free to do as you wished - adding team members, helping out those already on your team, answering requests for aid etc. - but after a certain amount of time had passed (represented in game by doing a certain number of missions, as opposed to any specific mission), something came up that needed to be resolved immediately to advance the overall plot - e.g. a Collector attack - which you had to do then and there.

 

I think there needs to be some events like this that have a sense of urgency to them, both in terms of story and gameplay. It gives at least the illusion that other people are acting in the world. That it's not just you doing things as you want to. Which, for me at least, really helps with the immersion. Having it like DA:I when things only happen when you want them to makes me feel like I'm not just playing a character but actually controlling the world (take for example, Wicked Eyes.... Despite the fact that the ball is being arranged by the Orlesian nobility, with the Inquistion just being guests, it occurs when the Inquistor feels like going there. No matter how long you spend doing other things, the ball never takes place until you're ready.) Ideally, these missions would be skippable, and you would just have to deal with the consequences of failing to act, but in practice, that's getting into branching sotrylines and bad endings which, as much as I'd love to see that kind of thing, are not the most efficient use of resources from the developers perspective, so the ME2 way of making you do them when they come up is the best compromise.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Perhaps. But even then, Shep should really be checking out a lead she considers unreliable over simply wandering out into the unknown and hoping for the best. If it had been something more like: "these are our best leads [the actual plot missions], but there are some indications of suspicious activity in <systems X, Y and Z> [which turn out to be side quests]" (or someone else telling you the latter part) then a Shep who doesn't really trust the Council to give her good advice might investigate the latter first. But to go somewhere you have no evidence could be connected to your goal over somewhere you have some evidence is is downright stupid.

There are plenty of reports if strange activity around.

And the Council has reason to be hiding Saren. Early in my first ME playthrough, I suspected a conspiracy plot and that the Council would have been in on it the whole time.

So I thought there was a real possibility that they were actively misleading me.

[PhroXenGold]

Off the top of my head, the only lead you have on anything "suspicious" (as opposed to knowing about some slavers or other cirminals) when you set out are Kahoku's missing men. There are a couple more you pick up on the plot worlds that imply there could be a continuation of what is going on on that world. But most of the sidequest stuff you pick up when you actually go to the system in question. Which you would have no reason to do. Even if you think the council are lying, picking a system at random and hoping for the best ain't mcuh of a plan.

[Seival]

Having sidequests is great, but don't just add a bunch of them just for the sake of fluffing up the game. While sidequests are optional, many players carry a completionist OCD-esque mindset where they feel compelled to complete every sidequest -- not only does this lead to them burning out and losing interest (many people reported this with Witcher 3), but it can also dilute the narrative focus of the game. I never had this problem with the Mass Effect series, but I feel like I should post this just in case BioWare feels the need to go crazy with number of sidequest as some way to show off how big the game is. 
 
EDIT: I want to make it clear that I don't think the previous ME games had too many sidequests, nor am I saying the next ME should have less. I am only warning of the potential dangers of adding too much as some other games have done. There are better ways to spend the resources anyway (like more main story quests).

+1

[Sartoz]

Then cut the transgender turian gaylien with daddy issues romance or something. I would gladly sacrifice some romances for a few quests that don't revolve around fetching some peasants ram/ring/ingredient, killimg X amount of X's, going on text-based war-table "missions", collecting bottles of booze, etc... hopefully these next-gen consoles can fit more under the hood and Bioware takes advantage of it. Sorry don't mean to rant.

 

                                                                           <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

I agree with the cutting solution and romance sacrifice(s).

 

However, I also believe that their original game design was overly ambitious and evolved into a bug infested Hydra. Sever cuts were made to attempt to control the monster and they found out it now was too empty... so filler quests were added (much easier and quicker to do). result? Bottle quests!!

 

Now, it's not entirely Bio's fault, since the old gen had some severe hardware limitations. Add the principle to have one game for all 5 platforms and if "it din't fit in the old gen" then cut for all platforms, was the order of the day.

 

 

Morpheus: "Know what happened happened and that it couldn't have happened in any other way".

[Fixers0]

For some reason I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but I think ME2 did this aspect very well. There were significant periods of time when you didn't have any leads on Collector activity and were free to do as you wished - adding team members, helping out those already on your team, answering requests for aid etc. - but after a certain amount of time had passed (represented in game by doing a certain number of missions, as opposed to any specific mission), something came up that needed to be resolved immediately to advance the overall plot - e.g. a Collector attack - which you had to do then and there.

 

It's implementation was extremely poor at times though, wrestling control from the player so abruptly, the worst offender must be the non existant misson that leads tot the Collecters attack on the normandy, that was just screaming contrivance in the player's face.

 

For ME1 I would make the leads given on becoming a spectre more vague and give the player some detective work in the early stages of the game in order to uncover geth presence. that way Shepard has a reasonable freedom to go about his business and as the plot would progess player movement would become more restricted.

[SolNebula]

The principle behind ME1 side-quests was quite neat if you ask me. Every quest had a small story to tell or providing additional infos on the galaxy. They were quite good. Hostages situation, Cerberus labs,  that Warlord Darius guy and Nassana sister assassination. I think with the right changes and updates that is the structure they should aim for in MEA sidequests.

 

Ofc I'm not advocating to have the same pre-fab over and over again that sucked.

[Ridwan]

FFS. Do you lot even want a game? 

[Amplitudelol]

Having sidequests is great, but don't just add a bunch of them just for the sake of fluffing up the game. While sidequests are optional, many players carry a completionist OCD-esque mindset where they feel compelled to complete every sidequest -- not only does this lead to them burning out and losing interest (many people reported this with Witcher 3), but it can also dilute the narrative focus of the game. I never had this problem with the Mass Effect series, but I feel like I should post this just in case BioWare feels the need to go crazy with number of sidequest as some way to show off how big the game is. 

 

EDIT: I want to make it clear that I don't think the previous ME games had too many sidequests, nor am I saying the next ME should have less. I am only warning of the potential dangers of adding too much as some other games have done. There are better ways to spend the resources anyway (like more main story quests). 

 

You dont need to go as far (Witcher 3).Take a look at Inquisition's side quests, It is the latest game of Bioware, it will give you the idea of their vision of open world side content.

[PhroXenGold]

It's implementation was extremely poor at times though, wrestling control from the player so abruptly, the worst offender must be the non existant misson that leads tot the Collecters attack on the normandy, that was just screaming contrivance in the player's face.

 

I admit that one was pretty awful, simply because it was so contrived but the rest worked well - The collectors are attacking the colony now. You have to go deal with it now, else they'll take the colonists and be gone by the time you get there. We've found a collector ship that's been damaged in combat, go investigate it now before it gets repaired and escapes. Were those missions done any other way - barring a chance to completely skip it - it would've made no sense what so ever, as the story implies time constraints as to when they would be avialable.

[Cyonan]

I admit that one was pretty awful, simply because it was so contrived but the rest worked well - The collectors are attacking the colony now. You have to go deal with it now, else they'll take the colonists and be gone by the time you get there. We've found a collector ship that's been damaged in combat, go investigate it now before it gets repaired and escapes. Were those missions done any other way - barring a chance to completely skip it - it would've made no sense what so ever, as the story implies time constraints as to when they would be avialable.

 

There's also the fact of the one time there actually is a time restraint that would carry a negative for failing to meet, you're allowed to completely ignore it by not going on the derelict Reaper before you've finished every other mission except Legion's loyalty mission.

 

The Collector attack on the Normandy will never happen prior to that mission and the game will never force you to go on it so you can just finish everything else, then go pick up Legion and get his loyalty before getting your random non mission while the Normandy is attacked.

[SolNebula]

I admit that one was pretty awful, simply because it was so contrived but the rest worked well - The collectors are attacking the colony now. You have to go deal with it now, else they'll take the colonists and be gone by the time you get there. We've found a collector ship that's been damaged in combat, go investigate it now before it gets repaired and escapes. Were those missions done any other way - barring a chance to completely skip it - it would've made no sense what so ever, as the story implies time constraints as to when they would be avialable.

 

Funny enough I found that time restraint concept damn awful. Let me take my time and do those damn missions the way I want. I'm already annoyed by time restraint in life/work/love and so on. Geez at least when gaming....