99 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

Well, I am still playing The Witcher 3 and as long as side content in ME:A is presented like it is there (i.e. with real cutscene dialogues and some intriguing small stories), than I am all for a lot of side content.

 

If it comes down to quality vs. quantity though, I hope they stick on the side of quality and also avoid repetitive filler content like in DA:I.

 

Finally, one important thing is not to get bogged down in a pattern with side content. So far, BW has a record of getting into patterns very easily, especially where the ME series is concerned.

- ME1 had empty planets where you look for minerals with the mako and clear out one building full of enemies

- ME2 had the N7 missions where you have a small level with specific goals (this was the most versatile of the bunch though

- ME3 divided between plot side quests, recycled mp maps and the infamous galaxy map fetch quests (if you want to count those)

 

I really hope we will see a mix of all of those patterns in the next ME. I hope we will never know ahead of time, what exactly we get into in the next star system. Will it be a mako mission, a tight N7 mission or a plot centric longer mission? We should always be surprised.

 

Unfortunately, if the leak is correct about the strike team missions, then that sounds like repetitive fetch quest content to me again. But we'll see.

[AlanC9]

FFS. Do you lot even want a game?

Yep. What makes you think we don't?

[AlanC9]

There's also the fact of the one time there actually is a time restraint that would carry a negative for failing to meet, you're allowed to completely ignore it by not going on the derelict Reaper before you've finished every other mission except Legion's loyalty mission.
 
The Collector attack on the Normandy will never happen prior to that mission and the game will never force you to go on it so you can just finish everything else, then go pick up Legion and get his loyalty before getting your random non mission while the Normandy is attacked.

I don't think you're right about this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Legion's recruitment mission?

[PhroXenGold]

There's also the fact of the one time there actually is a time restraint that would carry a negative for failing to meet, you're allowed to completely ignore it by not going on the derelict Reaper before you've finished every other mission except Legion's loyalty mission.

 

The Collector attack on the Normandy will never happen prior to that mission and the game will never force you to go on it so you can just finish everything else, then go pick up Legion and get his loyalty before getting your random non mission while the Normandy is attacked.

 

Eh? The derelict Reaper is the one that makes a degree of sense not to rush into, as it's not going anywhere, so there's plenty of time to strengthen your squad before going in. And the collector attack on the Normandy uses the reaper IFF technology to locate and disable the ship, so it likewise can't happen until after you collect it.

[AlanC9]

Eh? The derelict Reaper is the one that makes a degree of sense not to rush into, as it's not going anywhere, so there's plenty of time to strengthen your squad before going in. And the collector attack on the Normandy uses the reaper IFF technology to locate and disable the ship, so it likewise can't happen until after you collect it.

Well, wait a minute. At the moment we hear about the mission TIM's just lost contact with the research team. While the situation can't get any worse, does Shepard know that?

I'd have preferred it if Reaper IFF had been forced the same way Horizon was. IIRC one of the devs thought this too.

[Farangbaa]

I don't think you're right about this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Legion's recruitment mission?

Pssht... you recruit Legion on the derelict Reaper.



If you do everything before that, there's only Legion's loyalty left to do. You can even choose not to do Tali's LM before the derelict Reaper, take Legion to the flotilla, do his LM and not lose a single crew member when do the SM.

[Cyonan]

Eh? The derelict Reaper is the one that makes a degree of sense not to rush into, as it's not going anywhere, so there's plenty of time to strengthen your squad before going in. And the collector attack on the Normandy uses the reaper IFF technology to locate and disable the ship, so it likewise can't happen until after you collect it.

 

It's mostly just that it's the one time where there is an optional time constraint that actually has consequences for not going right away, and you can completely ignore it.

 

I don't think you're right about this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Legion's recruitment mission?

 

As mentioned, Legion's recruitment mission is the derelict Reaper =P

 

So because you're never forced to actually go on that mission, you can just do everything except Legion's loyalty mission before going and completely ignore the time constraint of the suicide mission after the Normandy is attacked.

[Fixers0]

If you do every single recruitment and loyalty quest (including legion's, unless you sold him) then the Collector attack will triger if you try to enter the Galaxy map, otherwise it will trigger when trying to launch land anywhere, including hub worlds like the citadel, which doesn't make any sense.

[AlanC9]

Pssht... you recruit Legion on the derelict Reaper. ;)If you do everything before that, there's only Legion's loyalty left to do. You can even choose not to do Tali's LM before the derelict Reaper, take Legion to the flotilla, do his LM and not lose a single crew member when do the SM.

Yep. My bad; I misread Cyonan's post

[In Exile]

Well, wait a minute. At the moment we hear about the mission TIM's just lost contact with the research team. While the situation can't get any worse, does Shepard know that?

I'd have preferred it if Reaper IFF had been forced the same way Horizon was. IIRC one of the devs thought this too.

It's a bad design. It just forces everyone to min-max. Someone will come up with the optimal way to recruit/not-recruit companions and distribute loyalty in such a way that the whole point behind the design would be lost, and you'd be inundated with complaints anyway.

There are some parts of verisimilitude - like race against the clock plots - that just don't mesh with RPG design. They just incentivise players endlessly repeating scenarios to optimize their outcomes.

[Artemis_Entrari]

Yes. Or at least make them interesting.

 

The second part is more important to me than the actual number of sidequests.  What failed (IMO) in Dragon Age Inquisition wasn't the actual number of sidequests, but the quality of those sidequests.  I disagree with the OP about the Witcher 3, because those were the kinds of sidequests that added value to the game.

 

If Mass Effect Andromeda has a lot of sidequests, hopefully Bio borrows The Witcher 3's model in terms of quality/depth of sidequest, and doesn't just re-do what they did in DA:I.

[Mystlock]

I think what makes a side quest fun is characters who are very powerful and influential and making serious alterations to their situations, maybe people in a tizzy or excitable or crazy or spellbinding. This description could fit anyone good or bad so if given to both sides everything turns chaotic. There was some good chaos on the quests the rogues in Dragon Age wanted done, like Zevran, Varric, Isabela and Sera, and it was so nice to learn what stories they could tell and how it affected them in everything they do now. I LOVE ROGUES and how Bioware brings them to a lively festive life and characters like them in Mass Effect would make any quest make you feel quite merry

[KaiserShep]

I think what makes a side quest fun is characters who are very powerful and influential and making serious alterations to their situations, maybe people in a tizzy or excitable or crazy or spellbinding. This description could fit anyone good or bad so if given to both sides everything turns chaotic. There was some good chaos on the quests the rogues in Dragon Age wanted done, like Zevran, Varric, Isabela and Sera, and it was so nice to learn what stories they could tell and how it affected them in everything they do now. I LOVE ROGUES and how Bioware brings them to a lively festive life and characters like them in Mass Effect would make any quest make you feel quite merry

 

Kasumi is the closest we've ever really gotten to a space rogue in Mass Effect, and she's also a sunnier, more lively kind of character, though, like Zaeed, is underutilized and underdeveloped, fading into the background as soon as we finish their loyalty missions. 

[Sartoz]

The second part is more important to me than the actual number of sidequests.  What failed (IMO) in Dragon Age Inquisition wasn't the actual number of sidequests, but the quality of those sidequests.  I disagree with the OP about the Witcher 3, because those were the kinds of sidequests that added value to the game.

 

If Mass Effect Andromeda has a lot of sidequests, hopefully Bio borrows The Witcher 3's model in terms of quality/depth of sidequest, and doesn't just re-do what they did in DA:I.

 

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

 Since exploration is a focused element and the game is massive, I won't hold my breath that Bio will avoid DAI's mistakes.

 

Let's face it. What do you do as a game designer with a fixed budget, when the design calls for a massive game world and a Mako? Come on, it can't be that hard of a question.

[Linkenski]

Finally, one important thing is not to get bogged down in a pattern with side content. So far, BW has a record of getting into patterns very easily, especially where the ME series is concerned.

- ME1 had empty planets where you look for minerals with the mako and clear out one building full of enemies

 

Whoa you're making it sound worse than it is overall IMO.

 

ME1 also had Witcher 3 style quests. If you take a step back and think about it lots of Witcher 3 quests have this gameplay layout

 

Typical side-quest layout

1) Talk to NPC, get exposition and a sense of this NPC as a character

2) Go to marked place on map and use Witcher senses

3) Beat enemies (and sometimes make a choice)

4) Go back to questgiver and get choice that determines how the quest ends

 

In ME1, you have lots of quests with similar design, which you don't really mention in the way you describe it, and like Witcher 3 you also have completely unique ones that are totally story-driven. Take Samesh Bhatia for instance. That layout is like this

 

Character-driven quest layout

1) Meet questgiver NPC. Get exposition and a sense of the character what this means to him

2) Find other NPC, talk to him. Choice: (persuade or don't, intimidate or don't)

3) Talk to questgiver again. Conversation depends on what happened before. Determines end of quest.

 

The two games are not so different, but the amount of these quality-type quests Witcher 3 packs is absolutely impressive, but I have to say, I think ME1 was just as good here, which is what I so sorely miss from Bioware products after ME1.

[MrFob]

snip for space

 

Fair enough. They were similar in structure and I will not deny that there are patterns in TW3 as well (especially the whole witcher sense thing). In ME1 though, the environments and the gameplay were the repetitive parts unfortunately. The skyboxes of the planets were great and diverse and I loved those but the terrain and the ever repeating warehouses and mining tunnels with ever the same enemies were what made it so repetitive. They fixed it in ME2 but they did so at the cost of level size. That's why I am asking for a mix of those different approaches, to give us variety, not just in story but also in what we do and where we are.

[Linkenski]

I can agree on that. Ideally, I'd like the Citadel-exclusive type quests of ME1 to be the same approach for some side-quests of ME:A while the planetary-exploration side quests make more use of unique areas and go more for a Witcher 3-type approach.

 

If budget somehow limits what BIoware can do with cutscenes and stuff, I'd much rather just have fewer side-quests than to end up with a bloated map after bloated map of blips and dots on my radar of meaningless side-activities like DA:I. Seriously, those and ME3's awful planet-scanning-for-artifact fetch quests are some of the biggest stains on Bioware's track record at this point. That needs to go.

[windsea]

they could really stand to steal from The Secret World in this area. 

 

They start the quest with this well written dialog with great characters, getting the player caring about the quest. From there it is a trier system of made up of general quest objectives, (Go here, get this, kill x numbers of enemies, kill mini-boss) fitting together in a way that doesn't feel pointless.

[AlanC9]

It's a bad design. It just forces everyone to min-max. Someone will come up with the optimal way to recruit/not-recruit companions and distribute loyalty in such a way that the whole point behind the design would be lost, and you'd be inundated with complaints anyway.

There are some parts of verisimilitude - like race against the clock plots - that just don't mesh with RPG design. They just incentivise players endlessly repeating scenarios to optimize their outcomes.

"Forces everyone to min-max" is a bit overblown. Surely the current design doesn't force us all to delay the Reaper IFF mission. Really, this is just substituting a slightly interesting min-max problem for a brain-dead one -- holding off the Reaper IFF mission is itself a metagamey strategy to optimize the outcome. (Shepard doesn't know that Reaper IFF starts a timer.)

And if keeping time critical doesn't mesh with RPG design, that's a problem with RPG design.

[Linkenski]

I liked the time-limit for the IFF in ME2. I quickly realized on multiple playthroughs that the amount of missions afterwards was what would decide the odds of my crew's survival, but because all the stats were hidden, it didn't feel that artificial to me and it's one of those parts of the game that I like on subsequent playthroughs because I have to try to strategize which order I tackle the missions in, and I kind of dug it.

[Oldren Shepard]

Not all side quests are created equal.

 

Things like finding that asari matriarch's writings around the ass ends of the galaxy or planting survey flags in exposed veins of plutonium from the first game, I can do without. That is, unless there is a connection to a larger purpose. In Inquisition, many of the fetch quests in the Hinterlands are actually smaller legs of an overarching goal, i.e. building the organizations reputation, numbers and material resources through boots on the ground. On the other hand, I don't see as compelling of a need for me to do mineral surveying for the Alliance in ME.

 

On the other hand, you can have lots of side quests that add something meaningful to the game or even the larger lore. Many side quests have allowed us to interact with unfamiliar species and organizations and learn about them while roleplaying Shepard in a certain way. How you treat the hanar proselytizing on the Presidium, how you resolve the biotic hostage situation, how you deal with the Cerberus scientist and his assailant, and so on and so forth. I don't see the number of side quests as a problem qua problem, just the type and how interconnected they are with the rest of the game or roleplaying opportunities.

You hit the nail on the head, kudos!!

[wright1978]

Well, I am still playing The Witcher 3 and as long as side content in ME:A is presented like it is there (i.e. with real cutscene dialogues and some intriguing small stories), than I am all for a lot of side content.
 
If it comes down to quality vs. quantity though, I hope they stick on the side of quality and also avoid repetitive filler content like in DA:I.
 
Finally, one important thing is not to get bogged down in a pattern with side content. So far, BW has a record of getting into patterns very easily, especially where the ME series is concerned.
- ME1 had empty planets where you look for minerals with the mako and clear out one building full of enemies
- ME2 had the N7 missions where you have a small level with specific goals (this was the most versatile of the bunch though
- ME3 divided between plot side quests, recycled mp maps and the infamous galaxy map fetch quests (if you want to count those)
 
I really hope we will see a mix of all of those patterns in the next ME. I hope we will never know ahead of time, what exactly we get into in the next star system. Will it be a mako mission, a tight N7 mission or a plot centric longer mission? We should always be surprised.
 
Unfortunately, if the leak is correct about the strike team missions, then that sounds like repetitive fetch quest content to me again. But we'll see.

agree witcher has top notch side quests with choices involved. If they are going for exploration route then something akin to this. I obviously want quality over quantity, smaller areas with that quality is vastly preferable to large areas with filler

[Equalitas]

Have the collection bullshit if you must. I like to do them all sometimes. But side quests in my opinion should be mini versions of main quests. And try having side quests that connect to each other.

[Lvl20DM]

The Message of the OP seems to be, "A system of quests like in the Witcher 3 is good, but don't overdo it". I think this is sensible, actually. While I appreciate a game providing lots of content, we can hit a point of "too much of a good thing". I think the debate is where that point is reached, and honestly pacing can relieve the strain a bit.

 

I suspect that, given we are playing a "Pathfinder", exploration will be emphasized - with marking or surveying being a pretty substantial part of what we do in parts of the game. If they make that entertaining, then I have no problem with it. I could even see the game starting with the character being part of a survey team that establishes how the game will work (land on a planet, find resources, etc) and then pull the rug out from under us when we "awaken ancient and terrible technological horrors" that kicks off the actual plot. Not unlike ME1, really.

 

I'm personally not a fan of the DAI collection type quests, but I simply don't do them. If I find a mosaic tile I'll grab it, but I don't feel any push to actually track these things down. I did collect all those shards though, because I was curious about the Forbidden Oasis. Not exactly a satisfying pay off to be honest, but it hooked me. They just overdid it, in my opinion.

[ShadyKat]

Agreed.

The main story should be a solid 30 or so hours alone. Then you can add side quests to bump it up to around 40 hours. Inquisition's main quest was way too short, and 70% of the game was fetch quest and grinding. I sure as hell don't want that for ME:A.