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2 games in a row where the power-fantasy didn't pay off. Will ME:A be any different?


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#1
Linkenski

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...assuming it is?

 

I think judging by that leak from earlier which already adds up in a lot of ways, the goal will be the usual Bioware thing where you're the hero who gathers allies which leads into an epic finale where unity and friendships beat the odds.

 

The problem is, that with both ME3 and DA:I, two games in a row and one of which had 3.5 years to get it right, simply didn't cut it. What went wrong? We can all speculate but I'd argue it's the size and scope of those stories that made Bioware realize too late that making that work with variables and mechanics in a consistent manner would burn their budget quicker than they could ponder about their next romance idea.

 

Where does this leave ME:A? Should its choice/consequence aspec at large be about gathering forces and then seeing those individually aquired be accounted for in the final mission, or should they take the safer route with smaller choices which implications are the consequences (and the same cutscenes play no matter what we choose aka DA2 yay) or something else entirely?

 

What do you think?



#2
rapscallioness

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Tbh, I prefer the smaller choices. Although, I would like to call them the more personal choices and consequences. I don't think the choices have to be galaxy level impact to have an enormous impact on the player and their character. Sometimes those kinda situations have more impact. Personal stakes can hit you very hard. 

 

The whole super power fantasy thing and shaping such large events is not really my thing. I mean, I played along with it in DAI and ME3- and I had fun overall, but oddly the stakes don't feel as high to me.

 

It's the smaller more personal stakes that make me replay the whole thing to save a life that nobody except a handful of ppl would ever miss.

 

But then I'm a fan of the whole highly unlikely and slightly odd heroes that find themselves in over their heads. Yet, manage to make some difference, and perhaps even do some good along the way. 

 

I would like a closer, more personal tight knit story within the context of a larger chaotic setting.


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#3
TJByrum

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Like they say, it's not about the destination- it's about the journey.

 

I like those small, personal choices you have to make.  Sure, it's cool being an intergalactic policeman, but I really liked the covert, small-scale, personal side in ME2.  To me those choices were much smaller, more personal, and you got this real deep connection with your squad that you didn't get in ME1 or ME3.  It was more about a small squad (or Cell, as Cerberus refers to it) overcoming the odds, and then making it out alive at the end.

 

ME1 put you in the middle of the galactic government, and ME3 put you in the middle of this epicly-sized war across the galaxy.  It's cool and all, but focusing on large stuff like that kind of detracted from the experience I had with my squad.

 

I'd like for the game to try to bring out more of those close, personal stories.


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#4
Indigenous

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...assuming it is?

 

I think judging by that leak from earlier which already adds up in a lot of ways, the goal will be the usual Bioware thing where you're the hero who gathers allies which leads into an epic finale where unity and friendships beat the odds.

 

The problem is, that with both ME3 and DA:I, two games in a row and one of which had 3.5 years to get it right, simply didn't cut it. What went wrong? We can all speculate but I'd argue it's the size and scope of those stories that made Bioware realize too late that making that work with variables and mechanics in a consistent manner would burn their budget quicker than they could ponder about their next romance idea.

 

Where does this leave ME:A? Should its choice/consequence aspec at large be about gathering forces and then seeing those individually aquired be accounted for in the final mission, or should they take the safer route with smaller choices which implications are the consequences (and the same cutscenes play no matter what we choose aka DA2 yay) or something else entirely?

 

What do you think?

 

 

I don't think I understand what power fantasy means because in the games you mentioned I could create an avatar and kill a countless number of fools.

 

How would you define a Power Fantasy?

 

As to choices and consequences, ME1, 2, and 3 were all stand alone games in my opinion. They were created separately and dont really play well together. ME1 and ME3 is all the trilogy you need while ME2 is arguably the best game in the series but adds next to nothing to the story. While I have no experience creating games if I think reasonable I would assume Bioware, this time, will have designed the whole trilogy before making Andromeda so that it should not be an issue for them to have a number of big consequences and small consequences. For, example they should already know the story arc and how it ends by game 3, and how many ways it can end etc.

 

Looking at the ties between DA2 and DAI led me to thinking Hawke was probably intended as the protagonist of DAI. It makes more sense when you think of Hawke as the Inquisitor and the story would have been a proper sequel to DA2. So, they are probably designing Andromeda with (if there is a sequel) Andromeda 2 and 3 so that their will be consequences to your actions.

 

If not well I am sure there will still be somewhat divergent paths in each game.



#5
Killroy

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ME3 and DAI didn't pay off as power fantasies? Both times you played the only person who can save the world/galaxy and did it. Are you conflating story with power fantasy? Seems like it.

I think judging by that leak from earlier which already adds up in a lot of ways, the goal will be the usual Bioware thing where you're the hero who gathers allies which leads into an epic finale where unity and friendships beat the odds.


Why didn't you read the leak before talking about it?

#6
KAGEHOSHI-

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ME3 and DAI didn't pay off as power fantasies? Both times you played the only person who can save the world/galaxy and did it. Are you conflating story with power fantasy? Seems like it.


Why didn't you read the leak before talking about it?

I think you and the OP have different definitions of "pay off" in this context.



#7
In Exile

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I'm not sure how you can classify DAI as not being a power fantasy. You're a chosen one who is quite literally worshiped.
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#8
Sylvius the Mad

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Not only do I think DAI was a power-fantasy, I think it absolutely worked when played as one.


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#9
AlanC9

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Just so I'm clear... the premise of the thread is that indulging the power-fantasy is a desirable thing, right?

And isn't it three games if DAI counts?

#10
Torgette

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The only thing DAI failed at with "power fantasy" is being evil in your power fantasy, otherwise it did just fine.



#11
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Not a big fan of too much power fantasy either, but I don't expect much else from Bioware. That's their formula, unfortunately. I stick around for the smaller NPC/friendship choices and small factional stuff, and hopefully, the bombastic stuff doesn't overpower the atmosphere too much (which it does in ME3 and DAI, I think).



#12
CuriousArtemis

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I think maybe what OP meant is... maybe... that the game indulging in a power fantasy resulted in bad games? I'd agree on DAI but not ME3 or any other BW game.

 

DAO, DA2, and ME series all featured protagonists who were sort of reluctant heroes. Sometimes you are even given the chance to say you don't want to be the hero, but you're repeatedly made to see that you have no choice. 

 

In DAI Cass tells you you can run away if you want... and that's it; it's not like you get the choice to actually do that. Which is silly, you shouldn't get that choice or there'd be no game lol But the narrative behind DAI was so incredibly weak that it seems like the only reason the PC becomes inquisitor is to be The Hero and Save The Day. I remember hesitating over the sword-lifting scene, where you are prompted to say why you're accepting your role as inquisitor. All of the options just seemed so self-righteous and power-hungry, and I never even got the chance to say I didn't feel comfortable being inquisitor. Then you have the ridiculous judgment scenes. I felt so incredibly awkward judging people as if I were some almighty Divine Right of Kings arbiter of justice. In short, your character had no personality, no motivation, nothing. The whole game narrative existed to indulge the player's power fantasy. "Do you want to command an army? Well look! Now you can! Check out this war table map!"

 

Honestly, the only thing that felt truly organic was the choosing of the Divine. I'm surprised the Chantry didn't bow down before us and ask us who our personal choice was, but thank god they didn't. That's not to say it was perfectly designed. Who becomes Divine shouldn't be a massive shock to the player. The player should be able to manipulate the outcome via gameplay but with still a little effort at storytelling on the part of the developers.


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#13
LordSwagley

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I am sort of tired of being sorrounded by kiss-asses in DA:I. "My Lord This, Inquisitor that, Lord High Herald this, oh Lord Choosen one!" anyone who thinks they need "Lord" infront of their name, is the first clue to a total ass.



#14
prosthetic soul

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ME3 and DAI didn't pay off as power fantasies? Both times you played the only person who can save the world/galaxy and did it. Are you conflating story with power fantasy? Seems like it.


Why didn't you read the leak before talking about it?

http://objection.mrd...o.php?n=8012933



#15
God

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I am sort of tired of being sorrounded by kiss-asses in DA:I. "My Lord This, Inquisitor that, Lord High Herald this, oh Lord Choosen one!" anyone who thinks they need "Lord" infront of their name, is the first clue to a total ass.

 

Well up yours pal.

 

Some of us just like to remind you commoners who really matters here.



#16
LordSwagley

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Well up yours pal.

 

Some of us just like to remind you commoners who really matters here.

Qouting from a true master of words... "Assbiscut" ;)



#17
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Yes, DA:I failed to allow me to play through as Joffery. I am disappoint. However, I was allowed one beheading. However, when fighting a war, one cannot be too rash lest one ****** off one's allies.

 

I enjoyed DA:I just fine. And ME3 did fine up until the last 10 minutes.


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#18
Gothfather

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...assuming it is?

 

I think judging by that leak from earlier which already adds up in a lot of ways, the goal will be the usual Bioware thing where you're the hero who gathers allies which leads into an epic finale where unity and friendships beat the odds.

 

The problem is, that with both ME3 and DA:I, two games in a row and one of which had 3.5 years to get it right, simply didn't cut it. What went wrong? We can all speculate but I'd argue it's the size and scope of those stories that made Bioware realize too late that making that work with variables and mechanics in a consistent manner would burn their budget quicker than they could ponder about their next romance idea.

 

Where does this leave ME:A? Should its choice/consequence aspec at large be about gathering forces and then seeing those individually aquired be accounted for in the final mission, or should they take the safer route with smaller choices which implications are the consequences (and the same cutscenes play no matter what we choose aka DA2 yay) or something else entirely?

 

What do you think?

 

I think you failed to see the reason why the power fantasy failed to work fully in both DA:I and ME3, especially ME3. The power fantasy is the most common form of gaming so it is often the default position but it can't work in all situations. The power fantasy fails in a horror setting or survival setting because if you feel kick ass in a horror game you don't feel scared. If you feel kick ass in survival setting you don't feel like survival is at issue. You need to make sure your games mechanics and narrative work in concert not at cross purposes to your narrative.

 

ME3 failed so hugely in this, which is why I think the endings were more hated then they would be otherwise. In Me, ME2 and ME3 you are told this narrative of a great machine menace coming to destroy all advance life. Yet from the moment you wake up in the Cerberus medical facility in ME2 you go from victory to victory against the reapers. It is possible to not lose a single person post Normandy 1 destruction that isn't a scripted death. No Virmire choices, no casualties, just victory to victory. yet you are constantly told the reapers are unbeatable conventionally. By the time Priority: Earth happens in ME3 the hero fantasy has been so entrenched into the game mechanics that you think "I got this." Not "we could lose this,"  Even when operation hammer becomes a more desperate gamble then originally intended you don't bat an eye most player probably don't even remember this bit. Why?

 

Because Bioware nailed the hero fantasy. You feel unstoppable as shepard. The problem is that wasn't the story being told. The story being told is that the crucible is a "hail Mary" move. it is a gamble that is a long shot. You should be going into Priority: Earth thinking "i could lose." You should not have felt kick ass. You should have had defeat after defeat against the reapers during the series vs victory after victory with most being cost free victories with the "I win" dialogue button/option.  For every two steps Shepard made against the reapers there should have been one taken back because of a lose. If you got to the catalyst thinking "holy crap i can't believe i made it" vs "yeah yeah come on reapers do your worse," then the choices really feel more desperate. But you don't feel that way at all so you think why am I letting this little AI Sh!t force me down these narrow defined paths? The reason you don't feel that way is because the hero fantasy was nailed by bioware. When they really should have been making the game more like a survival genre game where your goal is to survive the reaper invasion vs lets kick some reaper ass!!!!!

 

(Note I am not saying the endings are only bad because of the fact that the hero fantasy worked at cross purposes to the narrative only that this amplified the disconnect of the endings with the game.

 

DA:I had this same problem in that Cory is the big baddy from the past and at every turn you kick his ass, so when you get to the climax it feels anticlimactic because you get stronger and stronger with each step on the narrative and he gets weaker and weaker. There is no cost to victory along the way and no sense of danger. The attack of haven is so well received by players because it feels like you are in trouble and even that turns out to be the best thing to happen to the inquisition. You go from a indefensible position to one of the best possible defensible position in the world. It cost you a few losses but Cory loses his main military arm. After the warden quest plays out you eliminate his plan to create a new demon military arm. Going from victory to victory in service to the hero fantasy is the problem.

 

The problem isn't that bioware has failed to deliver the hero fantasy in their last two games they have in fact done it to perfection. The problem is that they have written two games where the player should NEVER have been able to indulge in the hero fantasy. In their last two games they cage the narrative as fighting against overwhelming odds, but in such a manner that you picking up .50 cal machine gun and shooting it Rambo style isn't the goal of the story being told. The power fantasy works in DA:O because it was telling the story of this heroic organisation that saves the world time and time again. The grey wardens are all about the hero fantasy. The blight as the reapers doesn't work when you are a grey warden because the Wardens are the answer to the blight so they are not caged as the unstoppable menace. In fact they are caged as the menace that wardens are specially trained to stop which is the perfect narrative for the hero fantasy. The reapers and cory were never stories were the hero fantasy could work without creating a disconnect with the game's mechanics and it's narrative.

 

ME:A could be a game perfectly set up for the hero fantasy however. You are exploring a new galaxy one presumes to create a new home for colonist from the milky way. So long as the threat isn't caged as this over whelming force the hero fantasy should work perfectly within the narrative. This is all 110% speculation as I have no idea what the story is.


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#19
BabyPuncher

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What do you think?

 

I think pointing the finger at ME:3 and DA:I supposedly being a 'power fantasy (a clumsy and ineffective enough term by itself) for their problems is shallow and trite.



#20
Sylvius the Mad

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The power fantasy works in DA:O because it was telling the story of this heroic organisation that saves the world time and time again. The grey wardens are all about the hero fantasy.

First, power fantasies aren't necessarily heroic.  Mine almost never are.

 

Second, I only once played DAO as a power fantasy, but the power fantasy I was engaged in had almost nothing to do with defeating the Blight.

 

I think DAI works as a power fantasy because I don't acknowledge Cory as the antagonist.  The antagonist in DAI is society, and it's hard to defeat.



#21
Sartoz

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                                                                           <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Power Fantasy games hm...?

 

Well, let's see.

DA:O - a wonderful game, had that last Dragon Boss fight

DA2 - had Hawke battling a red lyrium currupted Meredith as a Boss fight.

DAI - failed to meet my expectations and the final fight with Corepheus was anti-climax. The Real Bad missing in action and the  new DLC (deep roads?) seems to allude to that feeling.

 

ME1 - yes, had a big bad Boss fight

ME2 - The Suicide Mission was tough.

ME3 - Apocalyptic premise and poorly executed ending. Bio had to come up with an EC in an attempt to appease the "maddening crowd".

 

From a game design perspective, I suppose a single last Boss fight is easier to plan and execute than a more subtle approach to the game's concluding climax.. It is a button smashing adventure designed for the console crowd and therefore mandatory. Especially so, if the Leak Poll about SP_MP cross-over play is true.

 

Frankly, how else can you design a game that is easy to learn with a console controller, meet EA's game ideas such as continuous online $ stream from players?  It's certainly not a cerebral type game. It must be "fun" and fast pacing... seems like exploration and combat is the right formula.

 

So, another PowerFantasy game it is.



#22
StealthGamer92

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Like they say, it's not about the destination- it's about the journey.

 

I agree. That's why I actually like Mafia 2's story better than ME 2 & 3, smaller story and while no choice's it's still 3x better than the whole ME series put together. Or an RPG example I like Star Wars Jedi Knight Jedi Academy better then even Mafia 2, so much more than ME by comparison and that was on the original Xbox!



#23
KaiserShep

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ME2 - The Suicide Mission was tough.

 

Tough how? In terms of combat, it was pretty easy. The hardest fights in ME2, I'd argue, were the battles on Omega when recruiting Garrus, especially if it's one of the first recruitments you go on, and the one on Horizon, provided you didn't get the Cain beforehand. The difficulty curve drops steeply past the halfway point of the game. The decisions themselves are not hard to figure out. You really have to go out of your way to kill people.



#24
Panda

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I don't think power fantasy aspect was what failed in the ME3 and DAI. ME3 would have been my favorite game ever without the ending with Star Child. So that ruined a lot for me, otherwise it was superb. DAI's problems were related to open world and what things had to be cut out to implement that: meaningful side quests and cinematic dialogue's.


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#25
Mystlock

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Das a good thing you brought up, the pattern - getting people to trust each other (they're always fussing over things. Good things. Bad things. Always the fuss.) I'm all right with it - the storylines are fun and sometimes heartwarming and meaningful, and you can feel the impact of your decisions. And forging your own story how you like for Shepard, understanding quarrelsome allies by what they're willing to give up for the people they live for. It all FITS. Change from this pattern can be a tricky thing to do, but it's welcome.