163 réponses à ce sujet

[Salarian Master Race]

LOL.  No.  It is not solos that I'm using as a qualitative metric of OP'd-ness, but rather speedrun times.  If you are going to argue that a solo speedrun time is not directly proportional to the inverse of a player's average damage output over time, then you are wrong.  

 

Simply stating your opinion (and calling it a fact) about why you think the harrier is OP, without using any metric of comparison, is just plain silly (i.e. it is your personal perception).

 

*edit: OK, there are different maps, objectives, etc - but my point is that if all things are equal, a solo speedrun time is a pretty reliable indicator of the relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo.

 

ref: Harrier limited ammo capacity - it is a method of balance - if you are running to ammo boxes, you obviously aren't producing any damage output - this fact alone is a solid argument against the Harrier being OP.

 

Let's just go ahead and assume that the people on this forum represent the top 1% of all ME3MP players worldwide.

 

How many of those have Speedrun Gold or Solo'd Platinum?

 

How many of THOSE used the Acolyte?

 

Without even going into maths, the result is such a small percentage of the total players worldwide, that using it as a metric to gauge what is and is not overpowered is fallacy.

[Deerber]

LOL. No. It is not solos that I'm using as a qualitative metric of OP'd-ness, but rather speedrun times. If you are going to argue that a solo speedrun time is not directly proportional to the inverse of a player's average damage output over time, then you are wrong.

Simply stating your opinion (and calling it a fact) about why you think the harrier is OP, without using any metric of comparison, is just plain silly (i.e. it is your personal perception).

That the harrier is OP is merely my opinion, and should only be taken as such. I think I made that clear.

The fact that solos are not what this game was built around is, however, a fact. As is a fact that taking them as a basis for your idea of what a good balance in this game is will inescapably lead you to wrong conclusions.

I am not arguing what you said I am. I am arguing that a player's average damage output, as you like to call it, can be very different in a solo situation rather than in a 4 men team. And I'm also arguing that the latter should be the one to keep in mind when balancing the game.

The direct consequence is that you shouldn't be considering solos when you think of how this game should be balanced. And yes, that definitely includes solo speedruns. As a matter of fact, they're solos, despite you apparently believing that they are different things.

[Deerber]

*edit: OK, there are different maps, objectives, etc - but my point is that if all things are equal, a solo speedrun time is a pretty reliable indicator of the relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo.

ref: Harrier limited ammo capacity - it is a method of balance - if you are running to ammo boxes, you obviously aren't producing any damage output - this fact alone is a solid argument against the Harrier being OP.

How hard is it to understand that in a 4 men team you're only running to ammo boxes 25% of the times you're doing that in a solo, all the rest averaged?

When you understand that, you likely also understand why not, a solo speedrun is not a good indicator for the (quoting you here) relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo. It's only a good indicator for the relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo while soloing.

[BloodBeforeTears]

Let's just go ahead and assume that the people on this forum represent the top 1% of all ME3MP players worldwide.

 

How many of those have Speedrun Gold or Solo'd Platinum?

 

How many of THOSE used the Acolyte?

 

Without even going into maths, the result is such a small percentage of the total players worldwide, that using it as a metric to gauge what is and is not overpowered is fallacy.

 

LOL.  Well there are 60 Acolyte entries vs. only 24 Harrier entries.  Of the Acolyte entries, there are 2 first place PC entries and 6 first place console entries.  Of the Harrier entries there are 0 first place PC entries and 4 first place console entries.

 

It really doesn't matter, lol, I provide to you a line of reasoning based upon the most quantitative metrics I have at my disposal, and they are discounted by way of opinion.  Specifically by an opinion that trivializing the difficulty of a multiplayer game by yourself is not indicative of relative imbalance!

 

Whatevs....  I need to get a life and stop checking BSN.

 

*edit: The point is:  if there was a way to nerf/buff weapons such that the distribution of weapons used in the fastest solo speedruns was relatively balanced among the non-utility URs, then the game would undoubtedly be better balanced as a whole.

[Salarian Master Race]

LOL.  Well there are 60 Acolyte entries vs. only 24 Harrier entries.  Of the Acolyte entries, there are 2 first place PC entries and 6 first place console entries.  Of the Harrier entries there are 0 first place PC entries and 4 first place console entries.

 

It really doesn't matter, lol, I provide to you a line of reasoning based upon the most quantitative metrics I have at my disposal, and they are discounted by way of opinion.  Specifically by an opinion that trivializing the difficulty of a multiplayer game by yourself is not indicative of relative imbalance!

 

Whatevs....  I need to get a life and stop checking BSN.

 

*edit: The point is:  if there was a way to nerf weapons such that the distribution of weapons used in the fastest solo speedruns was relatively balanced among the non-utility URs, then the game would undoubtedly be better balanced as a whole.

 

It's like this:

 

 

Except a Plat Solo guy would say

 

"Acolyte doesn't break Platinum, I do."

 

If you start balancing the game around that 0.17% of the total worldwide playerbase, you'll be hurting the other 99.83%.  That's not sensical.

[BloodBeforeTears]

How hard is it to understand that in a 4 men team you're only running to ammo boxes 25% of the times you're doing that in a solo, all the rest averaged?

When you understand that, you likely also understand why not, a solo speedrun is not a good indicator for the (quoting you here) relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo. It's only a good indicator for the relative damage output a player was able to generate using a particular kit/weapon/faction combo while soloing.

 

Yeah I understand your point.  But be honest: 4 x TGI Harriers on platinum = one guy shooting and the other three staring at an empty ammo box!

[TheNightSlasher]

LOL.  Well there are 60 Acolyte entries vs. only 24 Harrier entries.  Of the Acolyte entries, there are 2 first place PC entries and 6 first place console entries.  Of the Harrier entries there are 0 first place PC entries and 4 first place console entries.

 

It really doesn't matter, lol, I provide to you a line of reasoning based upon the most quantitative metrics I have at my disposal, and they are discounted by way of opinion.  Specifically by an opinion that trivializing the difficulty of a multiplayer game by yourself is not indicative of relative imbalance!

 

Whatevs....  I need to get a life and stop checking BSN.

Since I frequent the speedrun thread, I'll comment purely based on the stats.

 

Based on the speecrun thread times, you conclude acolyte leads to faster times than harrier. This is true as an overall metric - no questions. Most of the fastest times are on glacier - so the map is identical in both places. But there are two things you forgot to consider - enemy and character.

 

Let me give you an example - fury has the fastest entry using an acolyte but TGI doesn't have the fastest using harrier. You are comparing two different characters here - characters that play very differently. TGI with an acolyte will NEVER give you a time even close to harrier or a whole bunch of weapons. Fury with a non-acolyte (say, harrier) might actually get you close to 18:xx or so, while TGI will have a real hard time hitting sub-20 with acolyte alone. So, comparing the stats across diff. characters is not a very good idea.

 

Now, let's consider the enemy faction. The most dominant faction there is Cerberus, quite understandably. Phantoms are generally the most productive enemy type in Cerberus and high RoF, low damage weapons (harrier) are generally inferior to low RoF, high damage ones (talon, arc pistol). Again, not a very fair comparison, don't you think?

 

Solos are a decent metric to discuss stuff but you need to normalize everything to the same setting. None of the other three factions have the same DR BS that phantoms have. So, cerberus solos using two weapons that behave differently is not a great idea.

 

Consider the volus engineer. There are two PC solos vs. Geth - one with harrier and the other with acolyte/CSMG combo. The former was done on White, which is generally a 'slower' map than Glacier, which had the latter solo.The harrier solo was quicker. Yes, player skill matters (let's ignore that for a while) too but this comparison forms a better ground than the entire thread as such.

 

FYI: I quite like the acolyte and think it's not really OP but that was not the reason behind this post. I just wanted to point out a couple of things you may be missing.

[Caineghis2500]

Argent? Is that you?

just teasing OP *maybe* but that was one hell of a namedrop, Argent's ears should be burning pleasantly!

 

On topic: I appreciate you stating both sides as articulately as possible without any real judgement of one side or other. I would only add that I think the charge mechanic is the thing that keeps the Acolyte juuuuust on the acceptable side of balance. When it was removed....it was bedlam around here... *nods to Cain's plat solo wth GT and chargeless acolyte vid infamy* When BW replaced the charge, the better players adapted and the pugs stopped piling on it as much and there's your balance restored somewhat.

Makes sense I can agree to that and I do appreciate you understanding my thread for what it was

[BloodBeforeTears]

 

It's like this:

 

 

Except a Plat Solo guy would say

 

"Acolyte doesn't break Platinum, I do."

 

If you start balancing the game around that 0.17% of the total worldwide playerbase, you'll be hurting the other 99.83%.  That's not sensical.

 

The other 99.83% don't give a $h!+ about these things, lol.  But it sounds like you're making a good point.

 

@Mgamerz - how feasible is it be to make an Acolyte mod that explodes enemies on impact, lol

[SilentStep79]

Makes sense I can agree to that and I do appreciate you understanding my thread for what it was

 

 

You got it.

At this point in the game's life cycle I don't think it's too much to ask to be able to discuss a weapon intelligently (which was what your OP was attempting) without too many extremes of reaction either for or against...I mean it's not like the Acolyte JUST came out or anything, it's had it's 'heyday' and ppl from both the love or hate camps should be able to see it more clearly imho.

[BloodBeforeTears]

Since I frequent the speedrun thread, I'll comment purely based on the stats.

 

Based on the speecrun thread times, you conclude acolyte leads to faster times than harrier. This is true as an overall metric - no questions. Most of the fastest times are on glacier - so the map is identical in both places. But there are two things you forgot to consider - enemy and character.

 

Let me give you an example - fury has the fastest entry using an acolyte but TGI doesn't have the fastest using harrier. You are comparing two different characters here - characters that play very differently. TGI with an acolyte will NEVER give you a time even close to harrier or a whole bunch of weapons. Fury with a non-acolyte (say, harrier) might actually get you close to 18:xx or so, while TGI will have a real hard time hitting sub-20 with acolyte alone. So, comparing the stats across diff. characters is not a very good idea.

 

Now, let's consider the enemy faction. The most dominant faction there is Cerberus, quite understandably. Phantoms are generally the most productive enemy type in Cerberus and high RoF, low damage weapons (harrier) are generally inferior to low RoF, high damage ones (talon, arc pistol). Again, not a very fair comparison, don't you think?

 

Solos are a decent metric to discuss stuff but you need to normalize everything to the same setting. None of the other three factions have the same DR BS that phantoms have. So, cerberus solos using two weapons that behave differently is not a great idea.

 

Consider the volus engineer. There are two PC solos vs. Geth - one with harrier and the other with acolyte/CSMG combo. The former was done on White, which is generally a 'slower' map than Glacier, which had the latter solo.The harrier solo was quicker. Yes, player skill matters (let's ignore that for a while) too but this comparison forms a better ground than the entire thread as such.

 

FYI: I quite like the acolyte and think it's not really OP but that was not the reason behind this post. I just wanted to point out a couple of things you may be missing.

 

Thanks for your insight, and I agree - the two weapons aren't really comparable, and are obviously optimized on different kits.  The reason I brought up the Harrier is simply due to perception, as SMR alluded to.  Ever since I started playing this game the Harrier was universally viewed as one of the most OP weapons - the coveted UR that everyone wanted to get their hands on - but tbh, it never really seemed that out of balance to me, and it clearly has its drawbacks.  Also, it looks, feels, and performs like a superior AR - as it should (it is UR, after all).  My beef is really with the rares that dominate the URs (should be nerfed) and the URs that can't hold a candle to other UR's (should be buffed).

[Deerber]

Yeah I understand your point. But be honest: 4 x TGI Harriers on platinum = one guy shooting and the other three staring at an empty ammo box!

I won't talk about platinum, as I almost never play that pos.

But on gold, I regularly finish matches with a harrier as my only weapon without having to run to an ammo box once in the course of the game, other than the regular trips I always incorporate into my spawn swoop routine. Especially if the team is half good, the ammo drawback is pretty laughable on certain kits/builds. TGI is probably one of them... Although what would I know, I haven't used it in 2 years XD

Anyway, the harrier was just an example. I could give you many others (reegar, grenades, etc...). My point is: the game is different when you solo. So is the metagame and the relative strength of things. Given that soloing is not at the center of this game for the vast majority of its users, I believe balance should be approached with the metagame of a full team game in mind.

That said, I agree with the idea that some rares are too strong and some URs too weak (most actually). I think we will alla agree on that, actually.

[Cryos_Feron]

maybe bare figures prove me wrong,
but I also don't consider the Harrier capacity a serious drawback on Platinum.

I just recently finished a London match when we were mostly even standing on the "balcony" with the Harrier as my only weapon, without ammo problems.
besides, you have 6 thermal clips.

maybe, if you are new and don't know where the ammo boxes are, don't have 6 thermal clips, just got the Harrier I..... , etc.
but most likely this doesn't apply to any of us.


edit:
I forgot to mention though that the Harrier did not carry me to a great result.
so I hope that it is NOT OP ;-)

[MaxCrushmore]

The Acolyte is unique in that it has great utility on almost every class, but only breaks the game on a few. Any kit with a flamer or with biotic charge can trivialize the game when paired with an Acolyte alone (and either Incendiary or Disruptor ammo on the vanguard). Obviously some other power based kits also perform well with it ..

 

It was ridiculous during that one small period of time when they removed the charge up portion.

 

I'm personally fine with how it is currently, although back during balance change times they should have added some weight to it, to minimize the whole Acolyte / Hurricane no weight combo that crushes everything.

[filippopotame]

Another interesting thing about hte acolyte is that it makes pull viable, which would really suck without it

[Cryos_Feron]

Another interesting thing about hte acolyte is that it makes pull viable, which would really suck without it

yes, this was mentioned in the first of those 97 Acolyte threads.
but rather considered a downside there

[Asari Goddess]

You just hatin' because it isn't a Quarian weapon. 

 

TRUE!!! that damn Quarian you guys are lucky i love the reeger so much that i have nothing bad to say about it lol

[Asari Goddess]

Suppose the Phaeston was the best weapon in the game, and it took 2 hours to solo with it.

 

Would that be an indicator that the Phaeston is OP?

 

There will always be highly skilled players who can push themselves to solo the hardest multiplayer modes with whatever is available to them.  At that point, it becomes clear it is not an issue with the game being too easy, or a gun being too powerful, it is those players themselves who are OP.

 

Suppose the Acolyte got nerfed or removed.  Solo players would use something else.  Better nerf or remove that, too.  And so on.  Where does it all end?

 

Basically threads like this amount to "Nerf everything!" because the only way to achieve "true balance" is to have one weapon, or a selection of weapons which are so similar as to be practically identical.

 

Now it is time to move on to Asari Porn.

 

Awwwww Salarian your words of wisdom (i mean knowledge since your specie don't grow that old) enlightens me :3 

[Asari Goddess]

Makes sense I can agree to that and I do appreciate you understanding my thread for what it was

 

I do like the point you did bring both good sides and bad side of the acolyte 

 

Unlike the other thread it isn't bias towards the weapon at all so i do appreciate the time you took to understand the way of the acolyte i guess

[Asari Goddess]

^ forgot to add that this thread also very acknowledging  

[BloodBeforeTears]

I won't talk about platinum, as I almost never play that pos.

But on gold, I regularly finish matches with a harrier as my only weapon without having to run to an ammo box once in the course of the game, other than the regular trips I always incorporate into my spawn swoop routine. Especially if the team is half good, the ammo drawback is pretty laughable on certain kits/builds. TGI is probably one of them... Although what would I know, I haven't used it in 2 years XD

Anyway, the harrier was just an example. I could give you many others (reegar, grenades, etc...). My point is: the game is different when you solo. So is the metagame and the relative strength of things. Given that soloing is not at the center of this game for the vast majority of its users, I believe balance should be approached with the metagame of a full team game in mind.

That said, I agree with the idea that some rares are too strong and some URs too weak (most actually). I think we will alla agree on that, actually.

ok. so how do u propose to isolate balance variables in a team game?

[BloodBeforeTears]

maybe bare figures prove me wrong,
but I also don't consider the Harrier capacity a serious drawback on Platinum.

I just recently finished a London match when we were mostly even standing on the "balcony" with the Harrier as my only weapon, without ammo problems.
besides, you have 6 thermal clips.

maybe, if you are new and don't know where the ammo boxes are, don't have 6 thermal clips, just got the Harrier I..... , etc.
but most likely this doesn't apply to any of us.


edit:
I forgot to mention though that the Harrier did not carry me to a great result.
so I hope that it is NOT OP ;-)

you just werent shooting enough.

[Kenny Bania]

have you ever tried to flame something with shields?
and how did it go?

I agree though that the trooper is OP himself.

Putting the Talon with Phasic III on the Trooper is pretty OP too, especially if you spec into Hunter Mode.

 

Or use any other weapon that actually kills stuff.

[Miniditka77]

Or use any other weapon that actually kills stuff.

 

Well yeah, that's the point of the Talon with Phasic III - You can OSK a lot of mooks with headshots (no need to shield strip and wait for Flamer DOT to do the job), and you can drop boss shields just about as fast as you can with the Acolyte, then let Flamer do its job.  It's just as EZ mode as the Acolyte Trooper, and works even better if you're halfway good at aiming.

[Kushiel42]

ok. so how do u propose to isolate balance variables in a team game?

 

Why, it almost seems like these attempts of yours to quantify the unquantifiable are doomed before they begin!