56 réponses à ce sujet

[Indigenous]

You said pay-to-win only really applies in PvP, I disagreed.

 

Yes I did, but I also acknowledged that technically it can apply to most games with micro-transactions. Also in terms of what you are paying for it only really applies to those items that give you an advantage ingame, not all purchasable weapons and gear.

 

I think the 'anger' around pay to win only really applies to pvp, f2p games or at least, generally, pvp multiplayer games. It's not as big an issue in co-op as all you are doing is fighting bots.

 

 

 

EA are currently using a system that is akin to gambling.

[Guanxii]

wrong.  doing this would actually hurt sales.  this has been proven.  there's literally TONS of games out there with this kind of model and they have had analysts run the numbers and whatnot.

 

I don't like it either and would love to be able to just buy what I want and not worry about the RNG packs.  But fact is these gamble packs make a killing and make them a ton more money than what you're suggesting.  On one hand people can do what they want with their disposable income, but on the other hand I still find it stupid to do so in the amount some do so.  There are those that spend HUNDREDS a month on these things.

 

You want to lobby for being able to buy what you want w/o RNG packs, cool I'm with you.  But, no offense, don't kid yourself by saying it'd be better for BioWare/EA that way (money wise)

 

Buying whatever you want would never work in practice because it would unravel the incentive structure but the present situation is not necessarily optimal - there's definitely a better balance between a total P2W situation and a money for nothing situation which we have got.

 

The RNG cash shop is a pervasive business model which we're all intimately familiar with but that doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be tweaked to be more effective and consumer ethical in practice - they're not mutually exclusive. Operant Conditioning is not without it's own limitations in practice and I would argue the current implementation will burn out most people quickly from my experience. Skinner never gave his rats turds for 3/4 trys and ask them to pay for the privilege, did he?

 

People are quick to forget that when the rats got burned for their choices when he started adding electric shocks to the conditioning chambers they learned to avoid the food buttons. Don't add unnecessary electric shocks to your skinner boxes, devs!

 

If you want the rat to smash the pellet button over and over I think you'll find there are diminishing returns when the consistency is poorer. When the consistency is higher the behavior is more predictable over a longer duration - improving drop rates for paying customers would incline more of the user base to pay for treats more often to keep up with the Joneses as opposed to grinding endlessly for hours and possibly falling further behind paying customers (at a net cost to EA).

 

Whales are only big fish in little indie ponds.

[Capt_Kangaroo]

I agree.

I have over 3000hrs in Multiplayer and have spent Millions and millions of creds, sometimes 10 Million creds at a single time buying a variety of different packs and STILL don't have everything maxed out. (I have soooo much ammo that I could easily supply MEA for the entire game. )

 

I have given up trying to max things out.

 

Cheers

[CHRrOME]

I'm going to say this, even if it's in vane: Microtransaction BS shouldn't exist.

 

Now, you are already assuming too much (not about the microtransaction crap that would probably be there we like it or not but about the RNG factor).

We do not know if they're going to maintain that stupid RNG system ME3 had. I think at least 70% of the people here on the forums do not want Random making a comeback. But if it does (gods please no) you can't expect to get an advantage just because you paid extra money, that's commonly known as Pay to Win. If the people who don't want to pay extra gets items at random, and the people who want to pay even more get the items they want, the game will be unfair and pointless.

 

Another thing, I noticed a lot of people tend to defend the microtransaction system on a paid game. Is not like it's a free to play game, we already paid 60 bloody bucks, why does it need to have this dirty microtransaction and extra currency things?

They release dozens of DLC, lot of those are overpriced, and is still not enough?

[Guanxii]

I'm going to say this, even if it's in vane: Microtransaction BS shouldn't exist.

 

Now, you are already assuming too much (not about the microtransaction crap that would probably be there we like it or not but about the RNG factor).

We do not know if they're going to maintain that stupid RNG system ME3 had. I think at least 70% of the people here on the forums do not want Random making a comeback. But if it does (gods please no) you can't expect to get an advantage just because you paid extra money, that's commonly known as Pay to Win. If the people who don't want to pay extra gets items at random, and the people who want to pay even more get the items they want, the game will be unfair and pointless.

 

Another thing, I noticed a lot of people tend to defend the microtransaction system on a paid game. Is not like it's a free to play game, we already paid 60 bloody bucks, why does it need to have this dirty microtransaction and extra currency things?

They release dozens of DLC, lot of those are overpriced, and is still not enough?

When you pay your 60 bucks you are refunding EA for bankrolling 3-4 years of development for the product on release. Online services are an ongoing expense and if you want them to continue for years after release they need to be self-sustaining. I am grateful that many more generous than I are still subsidizing what has been a very enjoyable experience on and off for about 3 years. I'd chip in a bit more if the packs were actually worth buying, but that is hardly the case which is why I ask the question what could they do to make these packs more worthwhile for those who keep the series going in the wilderness years? 

[Fade9wayz]

I could imagine a slightly better drop rate for rare and premium weapons for people paying with actuall money, give them a little incentive. I don't mind for it to stay a gamble though. Then again, I haven't had much trouble completing my manifest without paying. I just had to invest time, which was not a chore at all. I had fun (still do), and the manifest completed itself gradually. I guess you don't complain much about the RNG when the manifest isn't your priority. Sure I was happy getting better equipment and new kits to discover, but I'm in for fun first. I dropped out of DAMP pretty fast, because it wasn't fun for me. I must admit being confused when you say you had friends 'forcing' themselves to play to complete their manifest. No one needed a completed manifest to have the 'best' ending in SP. If they didn't like MP, they didn't have to play to have a full manifest. If you don't like something in a game, then just don't do it. I never completed any full paragon playthrough, nor did I romance anyone outside of Liara, because I hated the other options. In fact, just the Endings were enough to find the mere idea of a second bout in SP unsavory. Forcing oneself to play just to see it all when you aren't really interested is idiotic.
 
Most of my friends in MP were the same. More interested in coop, good tactic and good skill. None were obsessed with their manifest or thought playing MP was tedious.

[Guanxii]

I could imagine a slightly better drop rate for rare and premium weapons for people paying with actuall money, give them a little incentive. I don't mind for it to stay a gamble though. Then again, I haven't had much trouble completing my manifest without paying. I just had to invest time, which was not a chore at all. I had fun (still do), and the manifest completed itself gradually. I guess you don't complain much about the RNG when the manifest isn't your priority. Sure I was happy getting better equipment and new kits to discover, but I'm in for fun first. I dropped out of DAMP pretty fast, because it wasn't fun for me. I must admit being confused when you say you had friends 'forcing' themselves to play to complete their manifest. No one needed a completed manifest to have the 'best' ending in SP. If they didn't like MP, they didn't have to play to have a full manifest. If you don't like something in a game, then just don't do it. I never completed any full paragon playthrough, nor did I romance anyone outside of Liara, because I hated the other options. In fact, just the Endings were enough to find the mere idea of a second bout in SP unsavory. Forcing oneself to play just to see it all when you aren't really interested is idiotic.
 
Most of my friends in MP were the same. More interested in coop, good tactic and good skill. None were obsessed with their manifest or thought playing MP was tedious.

There does get to a point in most inventory based multiplayer games where the fun has long since stopped but players persist due to the promise of reward - a well known phenomenon built into multiplayer game design incentive structures - Extra Creditz did an entire episode on it a few years back. I still don't have a full manifest because I switched to PS3 last year and started from scratch. I played gold for years because it was fun but it is almost impossible to max a manifest on gold, especially without weekend challenges. I find it inconceivable that you could max a manifest without grinding platinum which is not fun especially when you have to PUG half the time. On average I find you have to raise about 1,000,000 credits for 3 UR upgrades which in monetary terms is an insanely poor value proposition.

[Battlebloodmage]

I beat EA would make a killing if they make strongest weapons to price between 100-300, even when the game only worth 60 dollars. Trust me, people WILL buy it. I still remember Diablo 3 fiasco with Auction House.

[Catastrophy]

So much this!

 

It was designed like that on purpose. EA would be stupid to let people just buy all their weapons and be done with the whole thing after two weeks. The only reason people play such repetitive crap (for the record: I did too for a while) is this stupid urge to own all weapons and shi*t. Plus, the competitive aspect. It's really not meant to be enjoyable. Like any addiction, it's about keeping people in agony. The more miserable people are, the more they actually play. And the more they pay, hoping it will end their suffering or at least make it less awful.

Just one more pack because I NEED that one weapon... and so it goes for weeks and months...

 

It always seemed to me that all the "professional" ME3MP players treated it like a job. They FORCED themselves to keep playing just to max out their manifest! So that they can finally be free of this madness. It's self-torture! It's absolutely pathetic and defeats the purpose of games being fun. Because MP is not like a game for children. It's not about fun at all. About relaxing. It's for adults who don't know what else to do with their time/lives. No healthy person would spend each day in multiplayer for months or even years. It's perfectly fine to have some fun with a bunch of friends for a while. But that isn't what online gaming is designed for.

 

More and more developers or their publishers have come to realize that there is nothing easier than selling drugs to addicts. It's the cheapest gaming experience ever.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't all the MP maps from the singleplayer?

EA made a lot of money with the MP, it was probably a lot cheaper than the SP, but tons more profitable. Lots of multiplayer addicts bought the game for the MP alone when it was cheaper. So you can be sure ME:A will focus heavily on that again. And that's VERY bad for everyone who actually wants a good story.

 

So glad DAMP was a failure. That means there is a chance they might actually try to make DA4 a good game... unless they decide to just drop the whole franchise because it cannot be milked like all the shooter MP addicts...

Some still play the ME3MP after having unlocked all the stuff there is...

If the gameplay sucks, the company won't make that much buck from microtransactions - there is just too much competition of other games.

[Fade9wayz]

There does get to a point in most inventory based multiplayer games where the fun has long since stopped but players persist due to the promise of reward - a well known phenomenon built into multiplayer game design incentive structures - Extra Creditz did an entire episode on it a few years back. I still don't have a full manifest because I switched to PS3 last year and started from scratch. I played gold for years because it was fun but it is almost impossible to max a manifest on gold, especially without weekend challenges. I find it inconceivable that you could max a manifest without grinding platinum which is not fun especially when you have to PUG half the time. On average I find you have to raise about 1,000,000 credits for 3 UR upgrades which in monetary terms is an insanely poor value proposition.

To be fair, when I maxed my manifest, there still were week-end challenges going on. Either way, I still play ME3MP because I still find it fun, even though I don't have anything to gain anymore, except maybe better skill, and I do PUG most of the time. DAMP, I played a few weeks, as long as I hadn't completed the SP. When I finished the SP, I uninstalled the game without regret for not going further wth the MP. Even if DAMP had offered the possibility to buy super-rare weapons with real money, I still wouldn't have bothered. Gameplay was bad, no fun. Period. I see no point in playing a game that bores me, even with the promise of super-duper-equipment.

[CHRrOME]

When you pay your 60 bucks you are refunding EA for bankrolling 3-4 years of development for the product on release. Online services are an ongoing expense and if you want them to continue for years after release they need to be self-sustaining. I am grateful that many more generous than I are still subsidizing what has been a very enjoyable experience on and off for about 3 years. I'd chip in a bit more if the packs were actually worth buying, but that is hardly the case which is why I ask the question what could they do to make these packs more worthwhile for those who keep the series going in the wilderness years? 

 

To be honest, the 'online' servers are a joke. It's mostly peer to peer. So I can hardly see how much it cost them maintain such a model.

I will defend the microtransaction in ME3 a tiny bit by saying that at least they gave us free DLC.

But this needs to stop, people is starting to accept and defend this aberration, and is just a dirty business model.

 

I understand your rage, but as I've said we do not know if the RNG will make a comeback, if there will be a store with random packages that give you random stuff.

I always say that the best way (or at least a much better way) would be to implement a progression / reward system, in which players unlock items by progressing through the game. Something like BF in which you play, earn xp, and unlock guns or gadgets, the other half is unlocking them via challenges. That's way more rewarding than a bunch of packages that cost a lot and give you some random items that 99% of the time you do not care about.

In this system people will play and unlock what they want. Say, if you only play as sniper you can avoid unlocking everything else by only doing sniper related challenges and whatnot.

 

I'd like to believe that ME:A MP will not be a copy and paste of ME3 MP. With all its flaws and bugs and omnibars that do everything... (revive, run, activate).

[Beerfish]

I am very opposed to paying for things that you could already unlock because not only are you needlessly giving them more money, but you are also promoting that the pay-to-win model is working.  I suppose that if you did shell out for more, you should get more, but because you paid more is a problem in itself.  If anyone keeps up that model, I would rather stop playing it all together, and hopefully I wouldn't be the only one to show that this is ridiculous.

Well since you don't pay for anything BioWare won't care and neither would the rest of the player base.  I applaud and back slap anyone that pays actual money for mp resources, it's what keeps the game free and the dlc free for others.

 

My personal pay model for me3mp was not to pay for packs to try and get the best weapons but to pay when a new dlc came out.  I do agree that a tweak should be in order with at least a higher chance of getting good items if you pay cash.  (It doesn't have to be specific items, thus alleviating the fear of paying to win.)

[SerriceIceDandy]

Tbh, I'd sooner buy an individual item/character class than a pack of random allotments. Even though I think I did this a maximum of 2-3 times, every pack I legitimately saved for only to get a character upgrade to one I never played pissed me off. Yay, I get to choose the colour of lights on my volus... I never got that Geth Juggernaut. 

[SolNebula]

Tbh, I'd sooner buy an individual item/character class than a pack of random allotments. Even though I think I did this a maximum of 2-3 times, every pack I legitimately saved for only to get a character upgrade to one I never played pissed me off. Yay, I get to choose the colour of lights on my volus... I never got that Geth Juggernaut. 

 

That's the reason why I never spent a single dime on MP packs. I never felt compelled to spend money on a RNG store. How people spend money on that is beyond me. Sounds so illogical.

[Dieb]

Because you're not paying for gear. Just like in any other FtP, you're paying for time.

 

This, and I really wanted to highlight it again.

 

If you start giving people even a slightly better chance at anything for the sole reason that they paid money, then the whole system is moot.

 

This is not a game that offers you better gear for money, it offers you to buy the same chests for money. If you don't like the deal you're getting, don't participate in it. There is literally not a single reason to buy chests other than saving time, and it has never been advertised as anything else.

 

Frankly, it is seldomly being prominently advertised at all, which I am quite thankful for.

[SolNebula]

This, and I really wanted to highlight it again.

 

If you start giving people even a slightly better chance at anything for the sole reason that they paid money, then the whole system is moot.

 

This is not a game that offers you better gear for money, it offers you to buy the same chests for money. If you don't like the deal you're getting, don't participate in it. There is literally not a single reason to buy chests other than saving time, and it has never been advertised as anything else.

 

Frankly, it is seldomly being prominently advertised at all, which I am quite thankful for.

 

So if anyone isn't paying then the MP is funded by???? Why would you pay for? For a better chance of maybe getting a weapon? Seems so fragile as a business model. If gamers were rational consumers this model would be dead the second it opened.

[PhroXenGold]

So if anyone isn't paying then the MP is funded by???? Why would you pay for? For a better chance of maybe getting a weapon? Seems so fragile as a business model. If gamers were rational consumers this model would be dead the second it opened.

 

Yeah, but given that consumers (of any kind, not just gamers) aren't rational and never have been, why even bother considering what would happen if they were?

[SolNebula]

Yeah, but given that consumers (of any kind, not just gamers) aren't rational and never have been, why even bother considering what would happen if they were?

 

I see your very low consideration of consumers. You are sadly right.

[SerriceIceDandy]

That's the reason why I never spent a single dime on MP packs. I never felt compelled to spend money on a RNG store. How people spend money on that is beyond me. Sounds so illogical.

I was young, brash, and foolish. Also, I think I really wanted a Quarian.

[Sartoz]

                                                                          <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

LMAO!

 

Thank you for the laughter!!

 

Permit me to point out that EA's purpose with these micro$transactions is to have a continuous revenue stream, on top of the one off from buying the game. To suggest that EA give you what you are paying for is to throttle said revenue stream. Said revenue stream is the main reason that senior EA exec(s) won't green light a game, unless it has multiplayer.

 

So, no, it 'aint gonna happen, while players continue to waste their money with foolish acquisitions. Acquisitions designed specifically to give you a poor chance of getting a worthwhile item. I think of it as a Casino designed to lure you in and  entice you to play for little return... 

 

Personally, I avoid that trap.

[PhroXenGold]

I see your very low consideration of consumers. You are sadly right.

 

It's not "low consideration", it's just how we are. Humans are not rational beings, it's a simple consequence of how we've evolved. There are times when making carefully considered rational decisions are beneficial. But, at least in a pre-civilised world, there are far more in which a quick instinctive decision is better. And thus, the humans better at making the latter survived and passed that nature on.

[shodiswe]

It worked well in ME3, you could ignore it, if you feelt like donating Money to BW and EA then do so, but you don't get much for your Money tbh.

[MrStoob]

 

The last one... RNG fun.

Ha!  Hadn't heard the line about becoming sterile before.

[Salarian Master Race]

Wasn't there that one guy who spent 2000 American on RNG packs?

 

 

People like that are saints and all, funding the MP DLC.

 

I knew a guy in SWToR who spent $1000 Canadian on that EA game's random "Cartel Packs" because he HAD to be the first person on the server with the Floating Command Throne.

 

Granted that's like $27.50 in USD, but still

[EmissaryofLies]

Whatever gets them more money is what they are going to go with. EA has built their company on "unfair". I expect nothing less than cash-grabbing, skullduggerous, and unnecessary mechanics as it concerns their "store".