376 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

I very, very much doubt that.

 

Doubt all you want. KaiserShep is still right. And not only because Omega is a lawless place, but also because (and I have repeated this 5 times now) SHEPARD IS A SPECTRE.

[The Heretic of Time]

Replace "Spectre" with "Player character" and it'd be more on the nose. Doesn't matter what the character's status is. Anyone with a health bar from your perspective is doomed. 

 

Sure, but in Mass Effect's case it's actually justified from a narrative point of view. Most games don't even bother explaining why the player character is so special and can get away with so much BS. But Mass Effect does. Shepard is a Spectre, he's above the law. And not only that, he's also an N7 soldier, top class, the best humanity has to offer. Hence Shepard can massacre entire platoons and never get in trouble for it, as long as his actions aren't in direct conflict with the Council's interests (which they aren't).

[KaiserShep]

I very, very much doubt that.

 

Sure, to a certain extent, any population will turn against you if you become a thorn in their side, but if Shepard, say, shot some random krogan in the face on Tuchanka, no one will care so long as that krogan wasn't an important member of Big Clan #6, and didn't owe someone a lot of money. Tuchanka is basically like Mad Max with shotgun-wielding dinosaurs. It's rife with clan warfare, and the CDEM won't help you if you get caught in the middle of their skirmishes.

 

 Basically, it becomes a lot more selective in these lawless hellholes. The same is true on Omega. Aria doesn't care what you do so long as whatever it is you're doing isn't bad for business, so if you drop some bodies in some ward in that asteroid, she won't care so long as it wasn't someone she had in her employ, and all the guards that work for her will act accordingly. She didn't really care when Morinth murdered Nef, because she didn't feel like she was in any danger at all. 

[Hazegurl]

Sure, but in Mass Effect's case it's actually justified from a narrative point of view. Most games don't even bother explaining why the player character is so special and can get away with so much BS. But Mass Effect does. Shepard is a Spectre, he's above the law. And not only that, he's also an N7 soldier, top class, the best humanity has to offer. Hence Shepard can massacre entire platoons and never get in trouble for it, as long as his actions aren't in direct conflict with the Council's interests (which they aren't).

Pretty much this. What's the point in putting a Spectre in jail for shooting a guy when the Council would just release him in a few hours anyway? Although in ME2 Shep has no such protection if he rejects the council.  The only solution would be for Anderson to go over C-sec's head and release him. Either way it's a waste of resources.

[Seboist]

Tela Vasir's response to what Paragon Shepard says at 7:37 here sums up what the spectres are all about(and shows what a clueless dumb dumb parashep is)

 

[Daemul]

Its literally impossible to be evil in the Mass Effect games, you cannot join the Collectors in ME2, you cannot switch sides and join the Reapers in ME3 etc, no matter what you do you're always the hero and you always save the day, and Bioware never intended it to be any other way.

Tela Vasir's response to what Paragon Shepard says at 7:37 here sums up what the spectres are all about(and shows what a clueless dumb dumb parashep is)

https://www.youtube....h?v=kpUKDIxwJ4E

Paragon Shepard always annoys the hell out of me in that scene because it's clear that he lacks a fundamental understanding of what the Spectres are and what they do. Vasir was literally fufilling her role as intended and Shepard just comes in on his high horse and wags his finger, the dude has no business being a Spectre if he isn't willing to do the terrible things needed to keep the Galaxy spinning.

Honestly, I agree with people who say that being a Spectre should have been limited to renegades, it makes no sense otherwise.

[Seboist]

Its literally impossible to be evil in the Mass Effect games, you cannot join the Collectors in ME2, you cannot switch sides and join the Reapers in ME3 etc, no matter what you do you're always the hero and you always save the day, and Bioware never intended it to be any other way.


Paragon Shepard always annoys the hell out of me in that scene because it's clear that he lacks a fundamental understanding of what the Spectres are and what they do. Vasir was literally fufilling her role as intended and Shepard just comes in on his high horse and wags his finger, the dude has no business being a Spectre if he isn't willing to do the terrible things needed to keep the Galaxy spinning.

Honestly, I agree with people who say that being a Spectre should have been limited to renegades, it makes no sense otherwise.

 

Paragon Shepard is very shoddily written at certain parts in the trilogy, like with Garrus' loyalty mission; he agrees from the onset to assist him in killing Sidonis, but then at the last minute starts preaching "thou shall not kill". Makes no sense.

 

Problem with limiting Spectres to Renegade is that the whole point of becoming one is to advance humanity's political interests. What they should've done is write Paragon Shepard as being akin to Batman, not some boy scout goober.

[The Heretic of Time]

Paragon Shepard is very shoddily written at certain parts in the trilogy, like with Garrus' loyalty mission; he agrees from the onset to assist him in killing Sidonis, but then at the last minute starts preaching "thou shall not kill". Makes no sense.

 

Problem with limiting Spectres to Renegade is that the whole point of becoming one is to advance humanity's political interests. What they should've done is write Paragon Shepard as being akin to Batman, not some boy scout goober.

 

If Paragon Shepard was like Batman I'd definitely play Paragon more often. But as it is now, I'm not interested in the Paragon path whatsoever.

 

In fact my previous playthrough was kinda similar to a "Batman playthrough", as in, I played a ruthless Shepard but at the same time tried to keep my casualties as low as possible and never killed more people than necessary. It was fun and at the end I ended up with roughly 80% renegade and 20% paragon on my reputation meter.

I think I'll do a "Punisher playthrough" next. Kill everyone and everything that stands in my way with lots of casualties (not doing any loyalty missions in ME2 etc). Should be fun.

[The Heretic of Time]

Pretty much this. What's the point in putting a Spectre in jail for shooting a guy when the Council would just release him in a few hours anyway? Although in ME2 Shep has no such protection if he rejects the council.  The only solution would be for Anderson to go over C-sec's head and release him. Either way it's a waste of resources.

 

True. But in ME2 you play in the Terminus system 90% of the time and the Council has no say over there. The Terminus system is basically the lawless wild-west of Mass Effect. So with that in mind, who is supposedly gonna stop Shepard or put him in jail in the Terminus system? The only person capable of doing that is Aria and she had no interest in stopping Shepard as long as he doesn't directly work against her (which he never does, in fact Shepard helps her more than once).

[themikefest]

I think I'll do a "Punisher playthrough" next. Kill everyone and everything that stands in my way with lots of casualties (not doing any loyalty missions in ME2 etc). Should be fun.

A playthrough like this.

[The Heretic of Time]

A playthrough like this.

Yeah except I'm not even going to bother with most side-missions and/or loyalty missions in ME1-2.

[Seboist]

True. But in ME2 you play in the Terminus system 90% of the time and the Council has no say over there. The Terminus system is basically the lawless wild-west of Mass Effect. So with that in mind, who is supposedly gonna stop Shepard or put him in jail in the Terminus system? The only person capable of doing that is Aria and she had no interest in stopping Shepard as long as he doesn't directly work against her (which he never does, in fact Shepard helps her more than once).

 

Even in council space Shepard can get away with anything without spectre status, look at how he gets away scott free with shooting up a nightclub and potentially killing the owner before becoming a spectre in ME1.

[The Heretic of Time]

Even in council space Shepard can get away with anything without spectre status, look at how he gets away scott free with shooting up a nightclub and potentially killing the owner before becoming a spectre in ME1.

 

That can be justified as self-defense. The bouncers started shooting first.

As for Fist, well, nobody will miss him, so I doubt anyone will report his dead to C-sec or the Council.

[KaiserShep]

Its literally impossible to be evil in the Mass Effect games, you cannot join the Collectors in ME2, you cannot switch sides and join the Reapers in ME3 etc, no matter what you do you're always the hero and you always save the day, and Bioware never intended it to be any other way.

Paragon Shepard always annoys the hell out of me in that scene because it's clear that he lacks a fundamental understanding of what the Spectres are and what they do. Vasir was literally fufilling her role as intended and Shepard just comes in on his high horse and wags his finger, the dude has no business being a Spectre if he isn't willing to do the terrible things needed to keep the Galaxy spinning.
Honestly, I agree with people who say that being a Spectre should have been limited to renegades, it makes no sense otherwise.

The best part of the Vasir scenes is when she has a hostage and you ignore the persuasion options and simply wound the lady.

"Argh! My arm!"

"You'll live."

That's such an Arny thing to say.

[Hazegurl]

True. But in ME2 you play in the Terminus system 90% of the time and the Council has no say over there. The Terminus system is basically the lawless wild-west of Mass Effect. So with that in mind, who is supposedly gonna stop Shepard or put him in jail in the Terminus system? The only person capable of doing that is Aria and she had no interest in stopping Shepard as long as he doesn't directly work against her (which he never does, in fact Shepard helps her more than once).

I agree, my example was more focused on Shepard killing that Turian in the Citadel during Thane's loyalty mission. I could very well see Shepard getting arrested for that one but either the Council or Anderson could easily get him out of that one.

[German Soldier]

As long as Renegade doesn't equal 'psychotic mass murderer', I'm fine with it.

Most players will be not fine with it..

[The Heretic of Time]

I agree, my example was more focused on Shepard killing that Turian in the Citadel during Thane's loyalty mission. I could very well see Shepard getting arrested for that one but either the Council or Anderson could easily get him out of that one.

 

No need for Anderson or Udina. Bailey is present when Shepard shoots the turian and Bailey can probably vouch for Shepard. No need to bother Anderson or Udina with such trivial stuff.

[Dean_the_Young]

She says that, but it's not really true. The code that she follows is as much a moral code as any other law or code. If your code deal with "right versus wrong" and "good versus evil" then guess what, your code is a moral code.

So no, the Justicar code is not wholly apart from morality.

Samara is also a very compassionate person, though granted, she seems compassionate despite her code, not because of it.

 

You can argue about the semantics of 'morality'- I'd argue that 'right versus wrong' isn't quite the same thing as morals, or else we're oversimplying and we would equivicate different ethical codes such as 'costs justify the means' which can provide 'right vs wrong' guidance- but it's missing the point: the morality Samara ascribes to isn't the sort of moralism that Paragonism ascribes to.

 

The most dominant theme of Paragonism, besides being 'the nice guy', is the dominance of empathy. Empathetic reasoning- the nice feels for the nice people, not so much for the unsympathetic assholes- guides practically all Paragon decisions and lines, to hypocritical extents. Paragon Shepard will be an arbiter of rules and lawful procedure for the naughty... but let them slide for the sympathetic, or descend into outright nepotism for friends. Never strike someone... unless they're a total ******* who deserves it. Never stand by when someone's suffering, even if it's for the greater good.

 

Samara and the Justicars, by contrast, are extreme deontologists. Morality is entirely based upon the idea of following rules, and the validity of the rules is as inherent as the rules are arbitrary. Empathy has no role- and is outright rejected in favor of the black-and-white classifications of 'just' or 'unjust.' 'Unjust' is anything that counters The Rules in the eye of the beholder: the same starving villagers facing a famine who might be defended as the 'innocent' will be wiped out as evil-doers when their role as smugglers comes to light. A police station of cops- following the orders of the legitimate authorities of a planet- will be wiped out if they oppose an escape.

 

Justicars are moral absolutists whose romantic appeal is their uncompromising ethos. Paragons may take moral superiority overtones, but they are far from uncompromising.

[BabyPuncher]

The most dominant theme of Paragonism, besides being 'the nice guy', is the dominance of empathy. Empathetic reasoning- the nice feels for the nice people, not so much for the unsympathetic assholes- guides practically all Paragon decisions and lines, to hypocritical extents. Paragon Shepard will be an arbiter of rules and lawful procedure for the naughty... but let them slide for the sympathetic, or descend into outright nepotism for friends. Never strike someone... unless they're a total ******* who deserves it. Never stand by when someone's suffering, even if it's for the greater good.

 

Is that right? Are you sure 'hypocrisy' means what you think it means?

 

Because I fail to see how hitting bad people and not good people is in any way hypocrisy unless you're preaching that nobody should be hit, which Shepard doesn't do. Or how upholding the law in some instances and not others is in any way hypocrisy, unless the person preaches about the inherent righteousness the law itself, which Shepard doesn't do. Nor how standing by when someone is suffering is in any way hypocrisy.

 

These words do carry actual meaning, you see.

[Hazegurl]

No need for Anderson or Udina. Bailey is present when Shepard shoots the turian and Bailey can probably vouch for Shepard. No need to bother Anderson or Udina with such trivial stuff.

True, it's more of a hypothetical "If Bailey was dumb enough to arrest Shepard" scenario.

[Hazegurl]

You can argue about the semantics of 'morality'- I'd argue that 'right versus wrong' isn't quite the same thing as morals, or else we're oversimplying and we would equivicate different ethical codes such as 'costs justify the means' which can provide 'right vs wrong' guidance- but it's missing the point: the morality Samara ascribes to isn't the sort of moralism that Paragonism ascribes to.

 

The most dominant theme of Paragonism, besides being 'the nice guy', is the dominance of empathy. Empathetic reasoning- the nice feels for the nice people, not so much for the unsympathetic assholes- guides practically all Paragon decisions and lines, to hypocritical extents. Paragon Shepard will be an arbiter of rules and lawful procedure for the naughty... but let them slide for the sympathetic, or descend into outright nepotism for friends. Never strike someone... unless they're a total ******* who deserves it. Never stand by when someone's suffering, even if it's for the greater good.

 

Samara and the Justicars, by contrast, are extreme deontologists. Morality is entirely based upon the idea of following rules, and the validity of the rules is as inherent as the rules are arbitrary. Empathy has no role- and is outright rejected in favor of the black-and-white classifications of 'just' or 'unjust.' 'Unjust' is anything that counters The Rules in the eye of the beholder: the same starving villagers facing a famine who might be defended as the 'innocent' will be wiped out as evil-doers when their role as smugglers comes to light. A police station of cops- following the orders of the legitimate authorities of a planet- will be wiped out if they oppose an escape.

 

Justicars are moral absolutists whose romantic appeal is their uncompromising ethos. Paragons may take moral superiority overtones, but they are far from uncompromising.

And people still question why anyone, especially a renegade, would kill her.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is that right? Are you sure 'hypocrisy' means what you think it means?

 

hypocrisy: noun: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

 

 

 

Because I fail to see how hitting bad people and not good people is in any way hypocrisy unless you're preaching that nobody should be hit, which Shepard doesn't do.

 

 

Fortunately, I never made the argument.

 

 

Or how upholding the law in some instances and not others is in any way hypocrisy, unless the person preaches about the inherent righteousness the law itself, which Shepard doesn't do.

 

 

 

To various- and, this is the key here, inconsistent- extents, Paragon Shepard does.

 

Paragon Shepard is vehemently against infringement of free will... until it comes time to brainwash Geth. Shepard is greatly against Reaper tech- again, until (again) Geth get involved. Shepard is against taking the law into one's own hand and committing prisoner abuses... until it's Archer. Shepard is totally against hiding corruption and war crimes... until it's for Tali's sake. Shepard is totally for due process and procedural justice and following not letting the ends justify the means... until, eh, this is important after all.

 

Hypocrisy comes from when Paragon Shepard states a moral standard in one context, but contradicts it in separate but similar contexts.

 

 

Nor how standing by when someone is suffering is in any way hypocrisy.

 

 

And now we're back to two statements ago- which is to say, I did not claim standing by when someone is suffering is hypocrisy.

 

I raised it as a point of emotional reasoning.
 

 

 

These words do carry actual meaning, you see.

 

Indeed they do. Hince why I used the words I did in the way I did.

 

I recommend you learn not only the meaning of words, but the structure of arguments- it might help you understand other people's arguments, rather than the strawmen fallacies you see.

[The Heretic of Time]

Paragon Shepard is vehemently against infringement of free will... until it comes time to brainwash Geth. Shepard is greatly against Reaper tech- again, until (again) Geth get involved. Shepard is against taking the law into one's own hand and committing prisoner abuses... until it's Archer. Shepard is totally against hiding corruption and war crimes... until it's for Tali's sake. Shepard is totally for due process and procedural justice and following not letting the ends justify the means... until, eh, this is important after all.

 

 

Nevermind the ridiculous inconsistency with the rachni queen, where in ME1 letting the rachni queen die is Renegade, while in ME3 letting the rachni breeder die is Paragon.

I know this only happens if you kill the queen in ME1 and meet the breeder in ME3 (instead of the same queen), but still, I find it extremely retarded how killing that breeder was deemed the paragon choice while letting her live was deemed renegade.

[BabyPuncher]

Paragon Shepard is vehemently against infringement of free will... until it comes time to brainwash Geth. Shepard is greatly against Reaper tech- again, until (again) Geth get involved. Shepard is against taking the law into one's own hand and committing prisoner abuses... until it's Archer. Shepard is totally against hiding corruption and war crimes... until it's for Tali's sake. Shepard is totally for due process and procedural justice and following not letting the ends justify the means... until, eh, this is important after all.

 

The point about the Reaper tech is valid and unfortunately poorly done. The rest? Ridiculous.

 

Nothing is contradictory about Shepard being against 'brainwashing' when the alternative is death. Surely you can envision the possibility of someone being 'against' something but nevertheless choose it because the alternative is something they're against more?

 

Nor does Shepard advocate the law or due process as the inherently moral path. Do you have an actual conversation this is from? And what is this nonsense about Archer? The paragon choice is specifically to prevent the abuse of Archer's brother.

 

As the idea of Shepard being against 'corruption' and 'war crimes,' do you understand how silly that is? Next you'll be suggesting Shepard is against murder as well. Or killing babies. Or shooting old ladies in the face. Surely you aren't trying to paint being 'against' war crimes as a moral dilemma as if someone might argue how wonderful war crimes are?

 

No, I really think you don't have much of an understanding of what hypocrisy is at all.