Aller au contenu

Photo

How 'evil' should the renegade options be?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
376 réponses à ce sujet

#251
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

As the idea of Shepard being against 'corruption' and 'war crimes,' do you understand how silly that is? Next you'll be suggesting Shepard is against murder as well. Or killing babies. Or shooting old ladies in the face. Surely you aren't trying to paint being 'against' war crimes as a moral dilemma as if someone might argue how wonderful war crimes are?

 

Easy there big guy. You're misrepresenting what Dean said. Dean said Paragon Shepard is against hiding war crimes, yet is perfectly willing to do so when Tali asks him to do it for her.



#252
BabyPuncher

BabyPuncher
  • Members
  • 1 939 messages

Alright, fair enough.

 

To be honest, I've never exactly understood what crime Ra'al is supposed to have committed. As Tali says, he's experimenting on inactive pieces. So...I suppose it's a big deal because it puts the fleet in danger? I guess? Maybe? I don't know how the geth are supposed to threaten other ships even after they did take over the one.



#253
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

Alright, fair enough.

 

To be honest, I've never exactly understood what crime Ra'al is supposed to have committed. As Tali says, he's experimenting on inactive pieces. So...I suppose it's a big deal because it puts the fleet in danger? I guess? Maybe? I don't know how the geth are supposed to threaten other ships even after they did take over the one.

 

When is the last time you played ME2?

Ra'al was not experimenting on inactive geth. He was actually building complete and active geth from the pieces that Tali send to him, and he was running tests on the geth neural network, trying to come up with a weapon to either shut down all the geth or bring them back under quarian control.

That very much qualifies as a war crime.



#254
BabyPuncher

BabyPuncher
  • Members
  • 1 939 messages

Why would that be a war crime?



#255
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

Why would that be a war crime?

 

Is that a serious question?



#256
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages
Well, it isn't a war crime if your legal system doesn't recognize AIs as something you can commit crimes against. Quarian law certainly wouldn't.

#257
BabyPuncher

BabyPuncher
  • Members
  • 1 939 messages

Yes, it's a serious question why running tests which inflict neither damage nor pain on the computer network of mechanisms with animal intelligence is a war crime.

 

We go conduct tests on human brains all the time, and would probably do so a lot more often if they were easy and reliable.



#258
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages

To be honest, I've never exactly understood what crime Ra'al is supposed to have committed. As Tali says, he's experimenting on inactive pieces. So...I suppose it's a big deal because it puts the fleet in danger? .


Yeah, I'm pretty sure endangering the fleet was the substance of the offense. But Tali was wrong about what he was doing; he was reactivating the pieces.

#259
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

Well, it isn't a war crime if your legal system doesn't recognize AIs as something you can commit crimes against. Quarian law certainly wouldn't.

 

And that is where you're wrong.

Quarians have outlawed creating and/or experimenting on AIs after the geth uprising. Rael'Zora was doing both by building new geth from Tali's parts and experimenting on them, thus committing a huge war crime.



#260
MrObnoxiousUK

MrObnoxiousUK
  • Members
  • 266 messages

Renegade options should not be evil at all,they are supposed to represent achieving your goals at any cost, not being a dick for the sake of being a dick. 


  • Drone223 et Deebo305 aiment ceci

#261
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages

And that is where you're wrong.
Quarians have outlawed creating and/or experimenting on AIs after the geth uprising. Rael'Zora was doing both by building new geth from Tali's parts and experimenting on them, thus committing a huge war crime.

"War crime" is not the term we use for that sort of gross negligence, though. It's a crime, but a different sort.

Gross negligence or incompetence may get you court-martialed, but it's not going to get you hauled off to the Hague.

#262
The Heretic of Time

The Heretic of Time
  • Members
  • 5 612 messages

"War crime" is not the term we use for that sort of gross negligence, though. It's a crime, but a different sort.

 

Quarians operate under matrial law ever since they left Rannoch, and what Rael'Zora was doing was meant to assist the Quarian's war efforts against the geth. Thus what he did is a war crime.



#263
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 830 messages

Renegade options should not be evil at all,they are supposed to represent achieving your goals at any cost, not being a dick for the sake of being a dick. 

 

I guess the problem is simply labeling things renegade or paragon in the first place. If I want my character to be a dick, then it would be fun to have some options where I can mess with some inconsequential NPC's and make them cry for the lulz. It doesn't need to become psychotic violence, but some trolling dialogue is always appreciated. No one needs a morality spectrum readout to know that their character is strutting about being a major a-hole. 


  • Youknow et Lady Artifice aiment ceci

#264
Youknow

Youknow
  • Members
  • 492 messages

I guess the problem is simply labeling things renegade or paragon in the first place. If I want my character to be a dick, then it would be fun to have some options where I can mess with some inconsequential NPC's and make them cry for the lulz. It doesn't need to become psychotic violence, but some trolling dialogue is always appreciated. No one needs a morality spectrum readout to know that their character is strutting about being a major a-hole. 

I think the issue is more so that there's no real definition for paragon and renegade in the games. They were all over the place which made it confusing for both the players AND the writers. It's clear by ME3 that NO ONE really understands what they are-- probably the reason that the reputation system was implemented. Honestly, with the way the circle system works, it'd probably be best to have the options like: 

 

Right Side:

Diplomatic and Nice.

Friendly Joking

Politely Disagree

 

Left Side: 

Irritated Response

Jeering and Taunting

Passionately Disagree

 

Drop the renegade / paragon system and just have people react to the hero. That was we can just move passed the "evil" and "good" the issue with "evil" and "good" or "paragon" and "renegade" is that people stop answering less like a person and more like evil incarnate or good incarnate. With a system where there's nothing for people to know, they'll probably RP more as a result of not knowing what's good or bad and having to pay attention to the characters themselves. 



#265
Excella Gionne

Excella Gionne
  • Members
  • 10 443 messages

So evil that your pre-order cancelled.



#266
Deebo305

Deebo305
  • Members
  • 1 578 messages

Renegade options should not be evil at all,they are supposed to represent achieving your goals at any cost, not being a dick for the sake of being a dick. 

^This

 

In ME3, they basicially made Renegade evil in alot of instances. Biggest glaring ones being Priority:Tuchanka and The Ardat-Yakshi Monestary, so killing Mordin and Wrex, committing Genocide on the 1st race who would've backed me(seriously Wrex would have backed Shepard in a heartbeat, most loyal guy in ME next to Garrus)   are your only Renegade options? Like Mordin couldn't trick the Salarians anyway, hell the tower still blows up regardless -_-

 

Then comes the Asari monestary, if your Renegade you aren't even given the option to talk Samara down!? Its stand there and let your friend kill herself then shoot her grieving daughter for good measue.....DAFAQ :huh:

 

These aren't renegade Bioware! Don't repeat things like these! Don't even get me started on Rannoch.... :angry:



#267
themikefest

themikefest
  • Members
  • 21 610 messages

There was nothing evil in ME3. Even killing Mordin and Wrex wasn't evil. ME3 needed to be a lot more renegade with more renegade interrupts and very harsh dialogue.



#268
Toasted Llama

Toasted Llama
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

I want Renegades to get the better end of the stick more often than in previous games. I felt paragon was too much favoured by Bioware themselves.

 

Like renegades being able to complete a mission better than paragons, because renegades made the necessary sacrifices whereas paragons were so busy trying to save everyone they got almost everyone killed in the end.

 

So basically I want (sometimes) renegade to be rational and realistic, whereas paragon would be naïve and unachievable.


  • rashie aime ceci

#269
Helios969

Helios969
  • Members
  • 2 751 messages

I want Renegades to get the better end of the stick more often than in previous games. I felt paragon was too much favoured by Bioware themselves.

 

Like renegades being able to complete a mission better than paragons, because renegades made the necessary sacrifices whereas paragons were so busy trying to save everyone they got almost everyone killed in the end.

 

So basically I want (sometimes) renegade to be rational and realistic, whereas paragon would be naïve and unachievable.

You have it partially right.  There should be situations in which diplomacy and niceness achieves your goals; and times when ruthless pragmatism should be more effective.  Good leaders understand the psychology of there adversaries and allies alike, and act accordingly.  It's time RPG's start recognizing this.  They sort of had this going with ME2 in the way you dealt with the Krogan.  In their world being aggressive and ruthless evoked a more positive response.  But it was never expanded on and the whole P/R system restricted you to primarily be one or the other to optimize a playthrough.


  • Il Divo aime ceci

#270
God

God
  • Members
  • 2 432 messages

"War crime" is not the term we use for that sort of gross negligence, though. It's a crime, but a different sort.

Gross negligence or incompetence may get you court-martialed, but it's not going to get you hauled off to the Hague.

 

It's still a war crime. At least, under the American system.

 

We're a bit different from everyone else in our pursuit and prosecution of war crimes. Incompetence, negligence, and generally screwing up your job by cutting corners and skirting protocol will get you fired, and possibly thrown in the stockade.

 

As for legit war crimes, we have a mentality going that as long as its not too excessive, we don't prosecute, especially if by doing what you do accomplishes the mission. We're more than willing to overlook some smaller details if it achieves the bigger picture. By excessive, I mean how likely it is for the press or foreign governments to find out about what we may or may not have done.

 

I personally prefer it that way. War's a dirty business after all. And I'm glad I'm not getting hauled off by some Euro to be prosecuted under their system for doing my job and them getting angry because a little collateral damage happened. 



#271
God

God
  • Members
  • 2 432 messages

You have it partially right.  There should be situations in which diplomacy and niceness achieves your goals; and times when ruthless pragmatism should be more effective.  Good leaders understand the psychology of there adversaries and allies alike, and act accordingly.  It's time RPG's start recognizing this.  They sort of had this going with ME2 in the way you dealt with the Krogan.  In their world being aggressive and ruthless evoked a more positive response.  But it was never expanded on and the whole P/R system restricted you to primarily be one or the other to optimize a playthrough.

 

The distinction between paragon and renegade needs to be eliminated because of this. As I've stated before, it should a system more akin to Idealism vs. Pragmatism: I break it down into a system of normative ethics, with the idealistic responses using more of the deontological system of ethics (what is right?), and the practical responses using more of the teleological system of ethics (what is good?).

 

Practical responses would also tend to delve more into meta-ethics and the language behind morality and ethics (what is moral?).

 

In short, idealism would do what is right: deontological ethics focus on doing what is moral based on some predetermined code or principle(s) that establish what the right thing is from the get go. It is the more uniquely "Paragon" system, though in many, many ways it comes with the expense of being more rigid, inflexible, morally dichotomous (black and white), and unable to adapt to complex moral or ethical quandaries. The guiding sentiment here is "The means reflect the end."

 

Pragmatism on the other hand focuses on what is good: teleological ethics are more concerned with doing the most amount of good, of minimizing suffering, and of maximizing pleasure. It utilizes utilitarianism and virtue ethics. It could be more of the "Renegade" system, but is by no means at all limited to them, as Paragons can easily utilize teleological ethics if the situation calls for it. That said, Renegades, who usually tend to be the much more practical and rational types, basically find their purpose here, especially when they implement meta-ethical language into their speech ("what is moral anyway?") Teleology is much more of a bastion for the practical and rational thinkers who will do whatever it is they have to do in pursuit of the end, the mission, the goal, the bigger picture, etc. If they have to broker a sensitive diplomatic deal to advance their goal, they'll do it. If they have to experiment on child via vivisection to cure a disease, they'll do it. The downside is that what they might have to do can very quickly become totally and completely abhorrent and terrible, and they face a lot of issues from people who think that their methods are extreme, sadistic, and psychopathic. The guiding sentiment here is "The end justifies the means".

 

And of course, it'd be more than possible to have a blend of both, and there hopefully wouldn't be some B/S karma meter that keeps track of your morality and closes off what options or dialogue you could use.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that neither diplomacy or violence is really indicative to either idealism or pragmatism. Both will utilize both options: However, the idealistic person is the gal who is more likely to try and work out a peaceful solution to a problem that isn't necessarily better solved that way, especially when pressed for time, whereas the practical guy would just bulldoze over the problem to spend as little time as possible working out the solution.

 

Shoot, what I'm saying sounds exactly like the current P/R system.

 

What I think we need is more ending decisions, where there is a lot more ambiguity and complexity and no-clear-cut answer that doesn't have drawbacks.


  • Sylvius the Mad et YHWH aiment ceci

#272
Youknow

Youknow
  • Members
  • 492 messages

^
But the thing here is that even with your system, it only works for situations created with "polar" decisions. That's my beef. It becomes confusing in the sense of "how do you make a person have a conversation with those ideals? Every conversation would have to lean towards requiring that morality and limits choices. That means that the choices that do exist will pretty much always be an "either/or" situation rather than just different emotions that could happen at situations. 



#273
God

God
  • Members
  • 2 432 messages

^
But the thing here is that even with your system, it only works for situations created with "polar" decisions. That's my beef. It becomes confusing in the sense of "how do you make a person have a conversation with those ideals? Every conversation would have to lean towards requiring that morality and limits choices. That means that the choices that do exist will pretty much always be an "either/or" situation rather than just different emotions that could happen at situations. 

 

Hence why I said that my examples only work in dichotomous situations. My method still works for coming to a conclusion (including context into ambiguous situations). I just didn't give very good examples. 

 

Of course, what I think you're trying to say is that you want to examine a person's complexity behind morality, but not actually put it into action with a handful of results? Is that correct? I'm just trying to get a bearing on what you're saying.



#274
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 974 messages

^This

 

In ME3, they basicially made Renegade evil in alot of instances. Biggest glaring ones being Priority:Tuchanka and The Ardat-Yakshi Monestary, so killing Mordin and Wrex, committing Genocide on the 1st race who would've backed me(seriously Wrex would have backed Shepard in a heartbeat, most loyal guy in ME next to Garrus)   are your only Renegade options? Like Mordin couldn't trick the Salarians anyway, hell the tower still blows up regardless  -_-

 

Then comes the Asari monestary, if your Renegade you aren't even given the option to talk Samara down!? Its stand there and let your friend kill herself then shoot her grieving daughter for good measue.....DAFAQ :huh:

 

These aren't renegade Bioware! Don't repeat things like these! Don't even get me started on Rannoch.... :angry:

 

Renegade Shepard doesn't "genocide" the Krogan, they kill themselves off due to their own violent stupidity as it was established in ME1-2 that was what was killing them off, not the genophage(ME3 greatly white washes/retcons this). Nothing "evil" with killing both Wrex and Mordin as a result of not wanting these ultra-violent manturtles to multiply faster than rats across the galaxy either.

 

You assume much by saying people would all consider Samara their "friend" or that killing her daughter is "evil", as if allowing someone to end up becoming another banshee for the Reapers is a good option.

 

ME3 Renegade was actually the most tame out of the three incarnations all in all. Only the killing Samara's daughter is on par with previous renegade actions.



#275
Jorji Costava

Jorji Costava
  • Members
  • 2 584 messages

The distinction between paragon and renegade needs to be eliminated because of this. As I've stated before, it should a system more akin to Idealism vs. Pragmatism: I break it down into a system of normative ethics, with the idealistic responses using more of the deontological system of ethics (what is right?), and the practical responses using more of the teleological system of ethics (what is good?).

 

Practical responses would also tend to delve more into meta-ethics and the language behind morality and ethics (what is moral?).

 

In short, idealism would do what is right: deontological ethics focus on doing what is moral based on some predetermined code or principle(s) that establish what the right thing is from the get go. It is the more uniquely "Paragon" system, though in many, many ways it comes with the expense of being more rigid, inflexible, morally dichotomous (black and white), and unable to adapt to complex moral or ethical quandaries. The guiding sentiment here is "The means reflect the end."

 

Pragmatism on the other hand focuses on what is good: teleological ethics are more concerned with doing the most amount of good, of minimizing suffering, and of maximizing pleasure. It utilizes utilitarianism and virtue ethics. It could be more of the "Renegade" system, but is by no means at all limited to them, as Paragons can easily utilize teleological ethics if the situation calls for it. That said, Renegades, who usually tend to be the much more practical and rational types, basically find their purpose here, especially when they implement meta-ethical language into their speech ("what is moral anyway?") Teleology is much more of a bastion for the practical and rational thinkers who will do whatever it is they have to do in pursuit of the end, the mission, the goal, the bigger picture, etc. If they have to broker a sensitive diplomatic deal to advance their goal, they'll do it. If they have to experiment on child via vivisection to cure a disease, they'll do it. The downside is that what they might have to do can very quickly become totally and completely abhorrent and terrible, and they face a lot of issues from people who think that their methods are extreme, sadistic, and psychopathic. The guiding sentiment here is "The end justifies the means".

 

Quick tangent that I'll put in a spoiler tag here:

 

Spoiler