376 réponses à ce sujet

[Simfam]

Stealing your Foster Brother's girlfriend's first kiss evil.

[Dio Demon]

Stealing your Foster Brother's girlfriend's first kiss evil.

It's not my fault. They were montaging together.

[Jorji Costava]

It's not my fault. They were montaging together.

 

[The Heretic of Time]

"War crime" is not the term we use for that sort of gross negligence, though. It's a crime, but a different sort.

Gross negligence or incompetence may get you court-martialed, but it's not going to get you hauled off to the Hague.

 

You're not getting it. What Rael'Zora did wasn't just a huge mistake that endangered the fleet, it was illegal in every single way imaginable. He was breaking one of the quarian's most sacred laws.

[Youknow]

Hence why I said that my examples only work in dichotomous situations. My method still works for coming to a conclusion (including context into ambiguous situations). I just didn't give very good examples. 

 

Of course, what I think you're trying to say is that you want to examine a person's complexity behind morality, but not actually put it into action with a handful of results? Is that correct? I'm just trying to get a bearing on what you're saying.

Yes. In a way, I suppose that IS what I'm saying. I always felt DA had the right idea with them now having an inherently "good" or "evil" actions and instead having the approval system. I honestly never was a huge fan of the "good" and "evil" morality scale in games anyways. I was fine with it in Star Wars games because of the nature of Star Wars, but in other games it usually feels a bit intrusive-- for both the writers and the players. 

[Simfam]

It's not my fault. They were montaging together.

 

*M-m-m-m-moooontaging

[AlanC9]

You're not getting it. What Rael'Zora did wasn't just a huge mistake that endangered the fleet, it was illegal in every single way imaginable. He was breaking one of the quarian's most sacred laws.

Guilt isn't the point. His offense simply does not fall under the category of a "war crime." That term has a specific meaning . In English, anyway -- is that maybe not your first language?

[ActualOjou]

I've gotta be able to throw characters out the airlock.

[Hazegurl]

Guilt isn't the point. His offense simply does not fall under the category of a "war crime." That term has a specific meaning . In English, anyway -- is that maybe not your first language?

The use of prohibited weapons during armed conflict is a war crime and considered treason if your country has laws against the use of such weapons.  Also violating the laws of war is a war crime. 

 

The Quarians created a 'law of war' which prohibits the rebuilding and reactivation of Geth.  Tali's father broke that law and therefore it is a war crime.

[AlanC9]

The use of prohibited weapons during armed conflict is a war crime and considered treason if your country has laws against the use of such weapons. Also violating the laws of war is a war crime.

The Quarians created a 'law of war' which prohibits the rebuilding and reactivation of Geth. Tali's father broke that law and therefore it is a war crime.

That's quite a stretch from our usage of the term. Though that's because we don't ban particular weapons except out of humanitarian concerns. And "laws of war" is just plain vague -- or rather, refers to an ad hoc bunch of law that's historically contingent and culturally specific.

This is getting a little silly, though. By Earth standards there's no "war crime" unless the geth are considered to possess rights that have been violated. By quarian standards, we don't even know if "war crime" is a thing, let alone whether the acts in question would fall into such a category if it did happen to exist.

Edit: I guess that makes the question indeterminate without more information on the quarian legal system.

[The Heretic of Time]

Guilt isn't the point. His offense simply does not fall under the category of a "war crime." That term has a specific meaning . In English, anyway -- is that maybe not your first language?

 

English is indeed not my first language, but I'm proficient enough at the language to understand all basic and most advanced terminology. I don't really see what my understanding of the English language has to do with this to be honest.

What Rael'Zora did is very much a war crime. Not only for the reasons that Hazegurl already presented at you, but also because the quarians operate under martial law. The laws that Rael'Zora broke are military laws.

 

So again, his crimes are very much war crimes by the very definition of the word.

[AlanC9]

What Rael'Zora did is very much a war crime. Not only for the reasons that Hazegurl already presented at you, but also because the quarians operate under martial law. The laws that Rael'Zora broke are military laws.

So again, his crimes are very much war crimes by the very definition of the word.

Again, violation of military law simply isn't what "war crime" means in English.

[The Heretic of Time]

Again, violation of military law simply isn't what "war crime" means in English.

 

And I quote:
 

noun

1.

Usually, war crimes. crimes committed against an enemy, prisoners of war, or subjects in wartime that violate international agreements or, as in the case of genocide, are offenses against humanity.

 

What Rael'Zora did is almost exactly that.

[God]

I can talk about war crimes all day.

 

Trust me, a lot of them are rather arbitrary and stupid. Actually, scratch that; they all are. The entire concept of war crimes is a farce. But I need not speak on that issue. 

 

Though to be fair, what Tali's father did was less of an overt war crime and more of an act of treason (which still applies, even if unwitting).

 

Granted, Mass Effect doesn't define war crimes very well. We're left with our own interpretation as to what counts and what doesn't.

 

I'd argue that while what Tali's father did wasn't a war crime per se (not all war crimes are equal afterall: it's illegal to deny a Civilian on the Battlefield access to fresh water or food for more than a period of 11 days unless necessitated by situation. Double taps are also illegal, as are targeting organic body parts with a cartridge higher than 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester is the rough civilian equivalent cartridge).

[The Heretic of Time]

I can talk about war crimes all day.

 

Trust me, a lot of them are rather arbitrary and stupid. Actually, scratch that; they all are. The entire concept of war crimes is a farce. But I need not speak on that issue. 

 

Though to be fair, what Tali's father did was less of an overt war crime and more of an act of treason (which still applies, even if unwitting).

 

Granted, Mass Effect doesn't define war crimes very well. We're left with our own interpretation as to what counts and what doesn't.

 

I'd argue that while what Tali's father did wasn't a war crime per se (not all war crimes are equal afterall: it's illegal to deny a Civilian on the Battlefield access to fresh water or food for more than a period of 11 days unless necessitated by situation. Double taps are also illegal, as are targeting organic body parts with a cartridge higher than 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester is the rough civilian equivalent cartridge).

 

Maybe so, but something to consider:

 

The codex and Mass Effect wiki both describe Rael'Zora as "the worst war criminal in quarian history".

[God]

Maybe so, but something to consider:

 

The codex and Mass Effect wiki both describe Rael'Zora as "the worst war criminal in quarian history".

 

They also call Cerberus 'terrorists' and deny the existence of the Reapers as 'myth'. It's also the same codex that was outright ignored as time went on in the series.

 

I don't place as much faith in the codex as other people here do.

[Seboist]

The codex might as well be describing another game altogether. One example is how it tries to describe things in a legit sci-fi fashion like with space combat, while the game itself is pure star wars in that area.

[The Heretic of Time]

They also call Cerberus 'terrorists' and deny the existence of the Reapers as 'myth'. It's also the same codex that was outright ignored as time went on in the series.

 

I don't place as much faith in the codex as other people here do.

 

Can't deny that.

 

Not that it matters though. The whole reason we were even talking about this is because we were originally talking about Paragon Shepard being a hypocrite and one example of this hypocricy was Paragon Shepard being against secrecy and hiding corruption while being perfectly okay with hiding Rael'Zora's crimes during Tali's trial because she asked him to do so.

[AlanC9]

I
I'd argue that while what Tali's father did wasn't a war crime per se (not all war crimes are equal afterall: it's illegal to deny a Civilian on the Battlefield access to fresh water or food for more than a period of 11 days unless necessitated by situation. Double taps are also illegal, as are targeting organic body parts with a cartridge higher than 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester is the rough civilian equivalent cartridge).

 
You can't do these things to a human, but you could do them to animals or machinery. Citadel law doesn't seem to class AIs as people, and quarian law certainly doesn't.

[The Heretic of Time]

 
You can't do these things to a human, but you could do them to animals or machinery. Citadel law doesn't seem to class AIs as people, and quarian law certainly doesn't.

 

And you're still missing to point why Rael'Zora's acts are considered (war) crimes by quarian law. Whether the geth are people or not has nothing to do with it.

[AlanC9]

The codex and Mass Effect wiki both describe Rael'Zora as "the worst war criminal in quarian history".

I can find the wiki entry, but not the Codex entry.

[AlanC9]

And you're still missing to point why Rael'Zora's acts are considered (war) crimes by quarian law. Whether the geth are people or not has nothing to do with it.

When did I ever say that his actions weren't crimes? All I've ever been saying is that they're not "war crimes."

[The Heretic of Time]

I can find the wiki entry, but not the Codex entry.

 

Sorry, I might have mixed up my sources. I don't think it was in a codex entry, But Tali herself did say it during her loyalty mission. I believe her exact words are: "I can't go back into that room and say that my father was the worst war criminal in our people's history".

[The Heretic of Time]

When did I ever say that his actions weren't crimes? All I've ever been saying is that they're not "war crimes."

 

So a crime committed under martial law that directly involves the war at hand is not a war crime? Because that's the common accepted definition of "war crime" over here. I'm not American though.