376 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

Red herring, but I'll bite. That's just society with laws.

 

Good and Evil do not exist in society.

 

The 4 way is a gamey archaic concept. It has no bearing on life.

 

There's just virtue and vices of the self and these things called laws and norms of where we live.

 

Prisons certainly exist, don't they now? Handcuffs, firearms, courtrooms, law enforcement. All those things certainly exist to punish people who commit evil.

 

And of course, they exist just as much in fiction, although they're often ignored.

[themikefest]

Would this be considered an evil playthrough? I don't. I look at it as femshep doing whatever its takes to accomplish the mission

 

ME3 had a lot of missed opportunities to have more renegade interrupts or at least have some very harsh dialogue if the bottom right dialogue is chosen or even the bottom left dialogue  was picked.

 

If the squadmates and crew can react to my actions or dialgoue in the next game, I would like to be able react to them for whatever dialogue they say or action they do.

[Red Panda]

Prisons certainly exist, don't they now? Handcuffs, firearms, courtrooms, law enforcement. All those things certainly exist to punish people who commit evil.

 

And of course, they exist just as much in fiction, although they're often ignored.

What's so evil about the execution of an Asari? You were ordered to contain the threat by an official Asari representative.

 

It's not like they're human, so the human right to life doesn't apply to them.

[Killroy]

Renegade shouldn't be "evil" at all. What evil person strives for a common good? That flies in the face of the definition of evil and being evil undermines the entire structure of these games. Some of the renegade choices we've been offered in the past were entirely stupid because they skewed to the realm of evil, as opposed to hardliner or ruthless. Things like killing Samara to have Morinth join you are absurd since there's no upside and there's only the potential for problems down the line.

[N7Jamaican]

Renegade shouldn't be "evil" at all. What evil person strives for a common good? That flies in the face of the definition of evil and being evil undermines the entire structure of these games. Some of the renegade choices we've been offered in the past were entirely stupid because they skewed to the realm of evil, as opposed to hardliner or ruthless. Things like killing Samara to have Morinth join you are absurd since there's no upside and there's only the potential for problems down the line.

 

Yes, killing Samara for Morinth is one of the dumbest decisions one can make in ME:A.  There is NO benefit to it.

[Killroy]

Prisons certainly exist, don't they now? Handcuffs, firearms, courtrooms, law enforcement. All those things certainly exist to punish people who commit evil.

 
How much of what the criminal justice system does is actually punishing evil though? In America the majority of people in prisons are non-violent offenders and only a relatively small minority of violent offenders are murderers, rapists or child molesters. If the purpose of out modern criminal justice was stamping out evil we wouldn't be wasting time incarcerating drug users and the like.

[God]

Law and Order, and Criminal Justice in the United States are depressingly bureaucratic and outdated.

 

Whatever David says on this issue is largely uninformed and inapplicable. Ignore him.

[Aezint]

As if 'ideals' and 'pragmatcism' were somehow opposed.
 
I have to wonder where the people who say this sort of thing think the 'ideals' in question came from. Did they magically sprout forth from the ground?
 
No, I don't imagine Paragon and Renegade were ever supposed to be this.

I may be remembering it wrong, but I thought I wrote that they were part of the same idea. There is a left hand because there is also a right.

I argue that they were, otherwise the evil option would be you joining the villains or being worse than them, which has yet to happen in Mass Effect. No matter whether you play paragon or renegade, you are still opposing the evil, and that is one choice they never give you.

[tscpx]

Evil was bad wording on my part, I'm sorry for that. 

[God]

OP, I think a better title for this thread should be "How excessive should the Renegade options be?"

 

Granted, I think the game should entirely dispose of the Paragon/Renegade System. We don't need a morality system with arbitrarily defined rules and outcomes depending on how 'good' of a character you were.

[tscpx]

OP, I think a better title for this thread should be "How excessive should the Renegade options be?"

 

Granted, I think the game should entirely dispose of the Paragon/Renegade System. We don't need a morality system with arbitrarily defined rules and outcomes depending on how 'good' of a character you were.

That would have been a much better title! Getting rid of the paragon/renegade system would make a lot more sense too. Dragon Age is perhaps stronger in that sense. 

[BabyPuncher]

Law and Order, and Criminal Justice in the United States are depressingly bureaucratic and outdated.

 

I really don't think anybody is arguing that.

 

All I claim is that the concept of 'Good and evil doesn't apply to me' is kiddy-table philosophy on a comically childish level. I'm astounded it manages to be so prolific among video games players. Really, this should be the sort of idea we moved past at the age of 6 or so.

 

Sadly, it manages to clumsily stagger on because it's part and parcel to the RPG power fantasy of "I'm just so badass I can do whatever I like and kill whoever I wish with no consequences."

[themikefest]

I really don't think anybody is arguing that.

 

The only thing I'm saying is that the concept of 'Good and evil doesn't apply to me' is kiddy-table philosophy on a comically childish level. I'm astounded it manages to be so prevelant among video games players.

Have you ever done a renegade playthrough? Is being the goody-two-shoe hero the only way for you to play?

 

Do you know a paragon playthrough can have worst results then a renegade playthrough?  

[malloc]

The paragon/Renegade system is broken. They should do away with it.

[Ahriman]

Mordin scene in ME3 if you sabotage the cure is my favourite Renegade moment in trilogy. I'd like to see more of it. Evil, like "I'll kill every beggar on my way" kotor-evil, is boring and just gives suspension of disbelief.

I don't need this "gray area" sh*t, which is getting milked to death by modern writing industry.

I need whatever-it-takes Renegade. Someone who is ready to sacrifice everyone and everything, even his own interests and bonds, on the way to greater goal. Someone who doesn't hesitate. Someone who sees life as path from point A to point B and you'd better not to be an obstacle. A perfect villain if he wasn't on our side.

[Adiatorix I Megas]

I'm not closed to the idea of the player character exhibiting actual cruelty. The renegade could be something of a jackass at points though, so i'd rather avoid insolence.

[God]

I really don't think anybody is arguing that.

 

All I claim is that the concept of 'Good and evil doesn't apply to me' is kiddy-table philosophy on a comically childish level. I'm astounded it manages to be so prolific among video games players. Really, this should be the sort of idea we moved past at the age of 6 or so.

 

Sadly, it manages to clumsily stagger on because it's part and parcel to the RPG power fantasy of "I'm just so badass I can do whatever I like and kill whoever I wish with no consequences."

 

Well, it really doesn't. I'm in a position where I have a lot more of an interpretation as to what I can define as good and evil. So long as I accomplish my mission and do so without wasting resources or making the Army look bad, my Commander's don't really care what I do or how to get there.

 

Honestly, I don't think we should be labeling our ideas on morality or ethics on good/evil basis, and we should be changing what we see as evil to fit more of an acceptable philosophical standard. I already stated what the general secular idea of 'evil' is. Technically speaking, it's not even a real human construct so much as it is a lack of order and characterized by an excess of unnecessary suffering.

[Robbiesan]

I guess I'd like to see the Paragon/Renegade system removed.  We all live with our choices every day.  Sometimes we're together.  Sometimes we split.  Sometimes reparations can be made; sometimes not. 

 

How will these choices—based on our current moral standards—affect our storyline?  Short term goals?  Long term goals?  Morale levels (team, overall, personal regrets)?  We need some kind of impact one way or another to show our choices can make a difference.

 

By morals, this is part of say our upbringing, and those we currently associate with.  However, just as in Life, despite all of that, we still have to look in the mirror and be accountable for our every days choices that express who we believe ourselves to be.

[BabyPuncher]

I need whatever-it-takes Renegade. Someone who is ready to sacrifice everyone and everything, even his own interests and bonds, on the way to greater goal. Someone who doesn't hesitate. Someone who sees life as path from point A to point B and you'd better not to be an obstacle. A perfect villain if he wasn't on our side.

 

Uh-huh. Right.

 

And of course, the rest of the world, they're just helpless against the 'badassness' of this guy, right? He yells and points guns at people, so I guess we just have to do whatever he wants. It's pointless to oppose him.
 

[StealthGamer92]

Mordin scene in ME3 if you sabotage the cure is my favourite Renegade moment in trilogy. I'd like to see more of it. Evil, like "I'll kill every beggar on my way" kotor-evil, is boring and just gives suspension of disbelief.

I don't need this "gray area" sh*t, which is getting milked to death by modern writing industry.

I need whatever-it-takes Renegade. Someone who is ready to sacrifice everyone and everything, even his own interests and bonds, on the way to greater goal. Someone who doesn't hesitate. Someone who sees life as path from point A to point B and you'd better not to be an obstacle. A perfect villain if he wasn't on our side.

No.. I was thimking "Why the hell did I shoot him and not just knock him out, or wound him and drag him away?" Mordin was kille for no other reason than shock value which is the most untalented and immature form of writing the way it was done. That was not a "great moment in ME" it was a "shocking moment in ME" that was completely unneeded.

[DaemionMoadrin]

What evil person strives for a common good?

 

Slightly offtopic: https://practicalgui....wordpress.com/

 

Highly recommended story, very entertainting. ^^

[Ahriman]

And of course, the rest of the world, they're just helpless against the 'badassness' of this guy, right? He yells and points guns at people, so I guess we just have to do whatever he wants. It's pointless to oppose him.

 

Huh? Pointing gun on random people is crazy, not badass. It has nothing to do with what I wrote.

 

No.. I was thimking "Why the hell did I shoot him and not just knock him out, or wound him and drag him away?" Mordin was kille for no other reason than shock value which is the most untalented and immature form of writing the way it was done. That was not a "great moment in ME" it was a "shocking moment in ME" that was completely unneeded.

First, he's not some civilian which Shepard could knock with left finger. Second, he knew, and he would tell krogans about Gavorn's Shepard's trick, this isn't an option.

[God]

Uh-huh. Right.

 

And of course, the rest of the world, they're just helpless against the 'badassness' of this guy, right? He yells and points guns at people, so I guess we just have to do whatever he wants. It's pointless to oppose him.
 

 

Well Blob, you're well known for extolling how people ought to only be able to get positive outcomes through their decisions rather than 'being punished' for doing what they think is right (while conveniently stating that a renegade option ought to be punished since the player 'knows' that it's evil, which also undercuts the point of a renegade option, and a morality system anyway).

 

You don't want a morality system, you want a game that caters to your morality and your morality alone.

 

I'd prefer a game that had no moral judgement of your actions beyond maybe dialogue, and focused more on idealism vs. pragmatism. Dragon Age Inquisition did that very well, as did many other games. 

[God]

Huh? Pointing gun on random people is crazy, not badass. It has nothing to do with what I wrote.

 

Ignore David Bob BabyPuncher. All he wants is the ability to lambast people for not meeting his standards while standing on a soap box to describe how games should only be made according to his vision.

[tscpx]

Mordin scene in ME3 if you sabotage the cure is my favourite Renegade moment in trilogy. I'd like to see more of it. Evil, like "I'll kill every beggar on my way" kotor-evil, is boring and just gives suspension of disbelief.

I don't need this "gray area" sh*t, which is getting milked to death by modern writing industry.

I need whatever-it-takes Renegade. Someone who is ready to sacrifice everyone and everything, even his own interests and bonds, on the way to greater goal. Someone who doesn't hesitate. Someone who sees life as path from point A to point B and you'd better not to be an obstacle. A perfect villain if he wasn't on our side.

It was my favourite renegade moment for me as well, I couldn't face myself in the mirror after doing that to Mordin though