376 réponses à ce sujet

[Vespervin]

I want to be as evil as possible. For example, I was watching Stargate Atlantis, the episode in season 1 where the kids kill themselves at age 25 because they believe it keeps the Wraith away. Well, that was only half of it, it was a ZPM that powered some type of EMP shield that kept the Wraith out, the whole sacrifice thing was population control, so they didn't leave the protection of the shield (they had no idea about the shield, BTW).

 

Anyway, the good guys didn't want to harm them but they do need a ZPM for Atlantis. Now I know in the end that they found out the ZPM was nearly depleted, but at some point I just wished they'd start shooting everyone and just take the damned thing. I want that kind of option in ME. I can be peaceful and friendly to the natives, or I can be a total brute who kills anything in his/her way and takes what he/she needs/wants.

[Dantriges]

I would say it comes across as Tali or Raan not caring enough about their species to make any attempt to stop the upload

 

Ah the writers probably didn´t have the guts to make you shoot Tali.

[wolfhowwl]

More evil. Borderline cackling-villain-evil.

 

Just play Kotor if you want that.

 

This isn't Star Wars though so Dark Side-esque buffoonery is out of place, almost certainly incoherent with the story BioWare will tell, and also that style has aged rather poorly.

[AlanC9]

I would say it comes across as Tali or Raan not caring enough about their species to make any attempt to stop the upload

Or not having the brains to tell the fleet what's going on.

[Broganisity]

I would say it comes across as Tali or Raan not caring enough about their species to make any attempt to stop the upload

It bothers me how Legion, the AI, is much more intent on saving their species and will turn on you, whereas Tali and Rann just watch.

That Robot's got chops, baby. Robo-chops.

[KaiserShep]

It bothers me how Legion, the AI, is much more intent on saving their species and will turn on you, whereas Tali and Rann just watch.

That Robot's got chops, baby. Robo-chops.

 

Heh, yeah, especially since Tali is always equipped with a shotgun and has energy drain by default. Just pull it out and BAM, it's no longer Legion, for they are dead. I suspect it's as Dantriges says. This scene would have been proper to have Tali turn on Legion/Geth VI, forcing Shepard to make a decision to either allow her to kill the geth or get in the way and shoot her. 

[Quarian Master Race]

It bothers me how Legion, the AI, is much more intent on saving their species and will turn on you, whereas Tali and Rann just watch.

That Robot's got chops, baby. Robo-chops.

It's simply more babying of paragon players at the expense of all logic. That scene simply wouldn't work if the quarian weren't handed the idiot ball. Otherwise, they'd simply radio Gerrel with the new information on the code upgrades and no gratuitous drama would happen (but "player agency" would be completely removed which is a big no no in power fantasies), or failing that would attempt to push the toaster off the cliff and force a Mordin style "stop me if you must" situation. However, siding with the geth is "paragon", and ME never makes paragons directly kill people themselves. Instead, they convolute the situation and turn everyone into OOC suicidal retards (see TIM's paragon death as well) so paragon drones can maintain the illusion of being the upstanding hero (which, gunning down a person whose only crime is attempting to protect their species from a genocidal loony is not).

The siding with the quarians scene is a lot better written, but it's still retarded how Shep tells the toaster to deal with it the fact that it can't have Reaper kool aid, then walks right up next to it and turns his/her back to it for no other reason than so s/he can be attacked by it (who, rational logic machine that it is, decides to monolouge menacingly instead of simply dropping your arse off the cliff) and have to be saved by the quarian (who at least decides to wake up and act in character in this scene, summarily frying the toaster). It especially makes no sense if you have Geth Vi or not Legion.

[themikefest]

Ah the writers probably didn´t have the guts to make you shoot Tali.

The writer's let the player shoot Mordin. Kaidan, Ashley, Wrex and have Tali/Raan stop legion/gethvi, so why not shoot Tali? 

[Dantriges]

Mordin: You pull out the gun and you have to use a renegade interrupt. It´s clearly telegraphed.

Kaidan: Not really so popular

Ashley: Eh well...

Wrex: He´s a big guy and you could shoot him in ME 1 anyways.

Legion: Well he´s a lamphead that showed up late in ME 2. Not the same impact. And he dies anyways. But I am biased, never considered throwing the quarians under the bus. I am not out for toaster oil but deciding for them if the question arises, is not really on the table.

Tali: Well, squadmate in all the games. And it´s a better guilt trip if she kills herself because of your decision. If she pulls out a gun, it´s easier to say "just had to defend myself" or simply "she pulled out the gun first." Perhaps i was mistaken and the reason was that it had more impact if she jumps out of desperation.

[Broganisity]

Basically, you sweaty three fingered Technophile!

I am forever bothered at how hand-holding the paragon options are. . .sure I choose them anyways, but what can I say I'm an idealistic to the core. Here's hoping Andromeda has a 50% increase in kill-able squad-mates.

[The Heretic of Time]

I would say it comes across as Tali or Raan not caring enough about their species to make any attempt to stop the upload

 

Tali probably remembered what happened to Mordin when he tried to defy Shepard's will.

(I'm just kidding. I agree that it's stupid that Tali doesn't try to stop the upload in that scene.)

[Drone223]

The "level" of Renegade should be in line with the story. And the story shouldn't be tailored to allow or disallow and specific "level" of Renegade. The story should be written for it's OWN merits.

 

But frankly i hate the paragon renegade system. Morality metres are childish. Morality isn't a metre and doing Z doesn't give you X or Y points. Actions have consequences in and of themselves they don't get pooled together into a mechanic that lets you magically create cost free victories like they did in ME.

Morality systems can work in some games such as KOTOR since the LS/DS are real and are major aspects of the SW franchise. But I do agree that there should be no morality system in future ME titles since the paragon/renegade system is too arbitrary and simplistic.

[KaiserShep]

Basically, you sweaty three fingered Technophile!

I am forever bothered at how hand-holding the paragon options are. . .sure I choose them anyways, but what can I say I'm an idealistic to the core. Here's hoping Andromeda has a 50% increase in kill-able squad-mates.

 

I'm on the fence about kill-able characters until I know whether or not this game is a standalone tale of our PC or a series. It's far too easy for characters to end up being tossed by the wayside because they became multi-state, like the ME2 lot, though Wrex is one of those few exceptions where he gets lots of content and is a big part of a subplot despite being able to gun his ass down in the first game and has a substitute who is significantly different.

[Oni Changas]

I'd say look towards ME2 for guidance on how Renegades should be. Only big decisions and denying quests should be the "evil" options.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I personally vote we throw the antiquated morality system in the trash where it belongs.

 

Failing that, ME2 Renegade is the best. Decisive and a big *******, but still kinda awesome at the same time. ME1 Renegade was a racist and ME3 Renegade a backstabbing murderer. 

[NaclynE]

Well from videos that I watched...err....listened too (even though it seemed speculation) I haven't heard anything overly aggresive or superly evil. Like one of the videos the guy made a big deal of how you can have your pathfinder (apparently that's your characters name) "PUT A GUN TO SOMEONES HEAD TO MAKE THEM DO SOMETHING!!!" I mean this sounds like nothing super big to me because in MASS EFFECT 2 you push a guy out a window and say "Good bye" as a renegade choice. To be honest if your pathfinder would be super evil he/she should torture people by dipping a person in arachni acid or something. THAt would be super evil and very RENEGADE.

[Red Panda]

There are a few minor decsisions where the Paragon choice ends up worse. Off the top of my head, if you spare the asari scientist working for Saren in Virmire, she ends up going on an indoctrination fueled rampage in ME3.

In an email that has no bearing on any war assets.

 

Must have been some pointless Asari officials she killed. Objectively, nothing of value was lost.

[BabyPuncher]

In an email that has no bearing on any war assets.

 

Must have been some pointless Asari officials she killed. Objectively, nothing of value was lost.

 

Only if you consider the 'War Asset' number the sole quantifier of value in the ME universe.

[KaiserShep]

I personally vote we throw the antiquated morality system in the trash where it belongs.

 

Failing that, ME2 Renegade is the best. Decisive and a big *******, but still kinda awesome at the same time. ME1 Renegade was a racist and ME3 Renegade a backstabbing murderer. 

 

ME2's was funny, but for me, that's about the only thing that would put it above ME1's Renegade. ME2 Renegade is basically a schizo jerk that might stomp some random guy for no particularly good reason, or shoot a hostage, right in front of the authorities, and get away with it, regardless of Spectre status. 

 

At least in ME3, the big Renegade decisions were fitting with the situation. It's the end of the world and billions are being exterminated already. No one is going to try anyone in space Hague for dooming the krogan or letting the quarians commit suicide against the geth, or allowing the quarians to take back their homeworld by ridding the galaxy of the geth, who absolutely no one outside of less-than-a-handful of characters aboard the Normandy even remotely likes.

[Red Panda]

Only if you consider the 'War Asset' number the sole quantifier of value in the ME universe.

I don't think that we can consider any subjective values that are not absolute.

[BabyPuncher]

I don't think that we can consider any subjective values that are not absolute.

 

Firstly, that would be really stupid.

 

Secondly, you have no more basis to claim higher war assets is objectively better than anything else. Perhaps some players really hate the galaxy and think the best option is the Reapers being killed and the rest of civilization along with them.
 

[BabyPuncher]

At least in ME3, the big Renegade decisions were fitting with the situation. It's the end of the world and billions are being exterminated already. No one is going to try anyone in space Hague for dooming the krogan or letting the quarians commit suicide against the geth, or allowing the quarians to take back their homeworld by ridding the galaxy of the geth, who absolutely no one outside of less-than-a-handful of characters aboard the Normandy even remotely likes.

 

I doubt that.

 

And in any case, the world continues after the Reapers.

[SmilesJA]

I don't think "evil" is the right word, It should be assertive or aggressive. I've never found the renegade options to be "evil". It may toe the line at times, but it was for the greater good.

[Red Panda]

Firstly, that would be really stupid.

 

Secondly, you have no more basis to claim higher war assets is objectively better than anything else. Perhaps some players really hate the galaxy and think the best option is the Reapers being killed and the rest of civilization along with them.
 

Do you really think Asari life can be accurately assessed?

 

It seems a bit brash to suggest that you could consider Asari life comparable to a human one. That which is alien is unknowable.

 

Therefore, I cannot judge it, but instead remark that since no war assets are lost, and that higher numbers lead to more favorable conclusions, despite any hatred of the game's setting and characters itself, nothing of value is lost when these Asari officials are killed.

 

These Asari had no value. Is that the fundamental issue that you wish to discuss?

[BabyPuncher]

You know, I don't really think you have much of a clue what the words 'objective' and 'subjective' actually mean. They do have meaning, you see. They aren't just pretty decorations to insert in a sentence to sprinkle in intelligence like salt on a slab of meat.

 

First you go and claim that they 'objectively' meant nothing. And then you tell me we can't really think about it since it's 'subjective' values. And now you're saying they're unknowable and incomphensible so we still aren't to think about it. Objective, subjective, unknowable in a span of minutes. Don't you think this is all rather amateurish?