376 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

Samara seems to disagree. The way she describes being a Justicar, it's a thing wholly apart from morality and compassion, themes that are pretty intrinsic to the paragon dynamic. 

 

She says that, but it's not really true. The code that she follows is as much a moral code as any other law or code. If your code deal with "right versus wrong" and "good versus evil" then guess what, your code is a moral code.

So no, the Justicar code is not wholly apart from morality.

Samara is also a very compassionate person, though granted, she seems compassionate despite her code, not because of it.

[Larry-3]

We should have a more diverse interrupt system.

• Paragon interrupt = sweet, nice, forgiveness
• Paragade interrupt = reluctant, disinclined, tone in voice
• Renagon interrupt = troll, passive-aggressive, attitude
• Renegade interrupt = cruel, malevolent, callous

[Dantriges]

I was missing the option to make a deal with the Dalatrass. Cure genophage now, because it´s rather likely they find out after the first stillbirths, shuttle the victorious krogans back for the victory party and making babies (the females stay on Tuchanka and the ones who don´t aren´t fertile). There shouldn´t be many krogans offworld left. Either harvested or keen on getting home, cured and close to a newy fertile female. We know from grunt that male krogan also carry the genophage and they have to go back to Tuchanka to get their fix.

 

Nuke* the planet from orbit including every spaceport you can find. There shouldn´t be many, Krogans don´t have a fleet. The problem with the remaining population should resolve itself Rakhana style as long as you keep a monitoring fleet around to shoot down escape attempts. Some turian or salarian cruisers should survive the battle.

You probably have to exterminate some krogans offworld who didn´t find it funny, but well the problem is solved more or less.

 

*throw in some asteroids for fun and profit

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I'd get rid of the system entirely. Paragon/renegade meters just limits people actually making choice and most people just end going paragon/renegade for everything through out the game. Also sometime, the choices don't even make sense for their respective side.

[The Heretic of Time]

I'd get rid of the system entirely. Paragon/renegade meters just limits people actually making choice and most people just end going paragon/renegade for everything through out the game. Also sometime, the choices don't even make sense for their respective side.

 

I agree with most of what you said, except the highlighted part.

 

I don't know many paragon players personally, but my friends who mostly play renegade make some paragon choices here and there. I do too.

In fact, I know only 1 paragon player personally and even she doesn't solely pick paragon options (granted, she only chose renegade options when she knew it would have a better end-result, such as destroying the heretic geth, she chose paragon for everything else).

[Ahriman]

We should have a more diverse interrupt system.

*snip*

Back in my days there were things called "dialogue options" where you could choose what your character needs to do instead of pressing buttons when blinking icons appear on screen. *grumbles*

[Dirgegun]

My problem with the paragon/renegade system was that it was never really handled properly--though ME3 seemed to understand what it wanted from Renegade more than the other games, unless I’m misremembering which is entirely possible. I haven’t touched any of the games in a while now.

 

Renegade, to my knowledge, was always supposed to be more direct and to the point, a straightforward way of handling a problem rather than ‘evil’. Paragon was always supposed to be more diplomatic? Two different ways of handling a situation with neither being inherently ‘evil’.

 

Renegade became more ‘evil’ in ME2, though. Not all the renegade decisions were evil, but some of them certainly were and the fact it affected your appearance and the like? There’s nothing about renegade that should suggest a more negative or detrimental state of mind, but that’s what was implied.

 

I normally prefer a more paragade style of game play, but they also locked you out of higher tier dialogue options unless you picked paragon/renegade enough times for it to unlock, and that’s what discourages people to mix it up too much. After all, those stronger dialogue options end in much more preferable results than the ones you have if they’re greyed out. 

[Xaijin]

click per minute = player satisfaction, ask any EA marketing rep

 

 

It's in the game™

[The Heretic of Time]

 

it affected your appearance and the like? There’s nothing about renegade that should suggest a more negative or detrimental state of mind, but that’s what was implied.

 

To be fair, it wasn't implied that being renegade = a negative or detrimental state of mind, it was implied that stress would make Shepard's wounds worse.

And with how paragon/renegade was handled in ME2, it kinda makes sense that renegade Shepard gets worse scars. In ME2, paragon Shepard usually seems to be more calm and more collected, while renegade Shepard seems to be more on edge.

[Dirgegun]

To be fair, it wasn't implied that being renegade = a negative or detrimental state of mind, it was implied that stress would make Shepard's wounds worse.

And with how paragon/renegade was handled in ME2, it kinda makes sense that renegade Shepard gets worse scars. In ME2, paragon Shepard usually seems to be more calm and more collected, while renegade Shepard seems to be more on edge.

 

Ah, I see. I haven't played it in a while so I can't remember all the exact wording. Still, that brings up another point, though! I know some people didn't like Inquisition for various reasons and would prefer one stay away from the other, but I did appreciate the intentions behind the reaction wheel, which let us play our characters emotions separate to their decision making. Perhaps something like that would benefit Mass Effect.  

[BabyPuncher]

I'd get rid of the system entirely. Paragon/renegade meters just limits people actually making choice and most people just end going paragon/renegade for everything through out the game. Also sometime, the choices don't even make sense for their respective side.

 

Mmm-kay.

 

I have a question for you. And for anyone else who agrees with this.

 

Let me begin by saying that every RPG I've ever played has had 'good' choices and 'good' dialogue that I really don't think are all that good at all. Choices that come off as outright dumb, as poorly argued, as not bothering to take variables into account, as hypocritical, and so on and so forth.
 

And I pick those choices anyway, because that's what leads to the best story.

 

Why would you ever pick the 'evil' options in a video game on a dramatic, first time playthrough?

 

You're not the narrator. The story is out of your hands. If the narrator says 'This guy is good and he gets a happy ending,' that's what's going to happen, period, and crying all day won't change that no matter how wrong or evil you think the character is. If the narrator says 'This guy is evil and siding with him will lead to consequences' that's what's going to happen, and if you don't like it, that's just too bad. 

 

I'm struggling to see what is it you think you're accomplishing here. Do you think that by choosing the 'evil but actually right choice' that your thoughts are going to go though your television screen and beam into the writers heads? You think that when you 'disagree' with the writers, you're showing them whose boss by picking the choice they don't like? You're 'rebelling,' you're putting them in your place? You're showing them they don't control you?

 

It's just ridiculous. You're just stamping your feet and screaming "No narrator, YOU'RE WRONG!!!" Why are you even bothering with a story at all? This is what you paid $60 for. To hear what the narrator has to say. And then you cover your ears when you hear something you don't like and chant "I can't hear you, I can't hear you!"?

 

There is not a single work of fiction I've ever come across where I agree with everything the narrator says. But...so what? I nod my head and move on. I pick the good choice, think to myself 'this isn't really that good,' and move on.

 

I mean, really, how mentally incapable to you have to be to imagine that the story 'forces' you to believe something because the choice isn't put in the moral light you want it to be put in? I'm astounded by how incapable RPG players seem to be of handling a narrator they sometimes disagree with.

[The Heretic of Time]

Why would you ever pick the 'evil' options in a video game on a dramatic, first time playthrough?

 

You already answered your own question: for the drama.

In every RPG where you get to choose between good and evil, I always play evil first and good second. Sometimes I play a mix of both first and then pick the opposite choices on a second playthrough.

[BabyPuncher]

Evil playthoughs lead to worse stories pretty much across the board for RPGs. They introduce huge contrivances that aren't present in good playthoughs are more often than not don't even bother to attempt proper conflict and resolution.

[The Heretic of Time]

Evil playthoughs lead to worse stories pretty much across the board for RPGs. They introduce huge contrivances that aren't present in good playthoughs are more often than not don't even bother to attempt proper conflict and resolution.

That is just your opinion, an opinion I completely disagree with.

Evil playthrough are often a lot more fun. Especially KOTOR was much more enjoyable as a dark-side Revan than a light-side Revan.

[BabyPuncher]

It sounds to me like you're not at all bothered by the narrator labeling 'evil' choices as such.

[The Heretic of Time]

It sounds to me like you're not at all bothered by the narrator labeling 'evil' choices as such.

What is that supposed to mean?

[BabyPuncher]

Exactly what I said. it sounds to me like you're perfectly okay with 'evil' choices been labeled as such by the story.

 

Which would be mature, if it's true. There's nothing at all wrong with enjoying fiction that features outrageously evil acts and innocents being mowed down and whatnot as front and center. I simply ask that people recognize those innocents being mowed down for the silly entertainment it is, and not clumsily try to pass it off as their little kiddie-table philosophy.

[The Heretic of Time]

When a choice is actually evil within that narrative, like the dark side in Star Wars, then sure.

But if you're suggesting that renegade in ME is evil, then you're wrong. Renegade is not evil nor is it labeled as such by the game or the developers.

[BabyPuncher]

Well that wouldn't be very fun, would it? If the choices in question were properly respected as evil, it would involve a swift court-marshal, a lockdown of the ship, companions abandoning and testifying against the player character, and long years of prison. As I've said in others threads, nobody wants to play "Sit-in-Prison-Simulator" regardless of how 'realistic' a response that would be.

 

Video games first and foremost need to be fun. Nonexistent punishment and incredibly feeble opposition to evil are part and parcel to that in choice driven RPGs.

[The Heretic of Time]

First of all, nothing you do in Mass Effect is actually evil. Renegade choices are perfectly recognized for what they are: ruthless, callous, mean, but not evil.

Second; Shepard is a Spectre and Spectres are above the law. That is the reason why you can do morally questionable things without being put in jail for it. Both Paragon and Renegade are perfectly acceptable methods of operation and neither is evil or unrealistic or reason to put Shepard in jail.

If anything, I think the Paragon path is more unrealistic and nonsensical than the Renegade path.

[BabyPuncher]

I can assure you that a huge number of Renegade actions would land Shepard in prison or worse.

[The Heretic of Time]

I can assure you that a huge number of Renegade actions would land Shepard in prison or worse.

If he wasn't a Spectre maybe. But as I said, Shepard is a Spectre, thus above the law, thus capable and expected to make decisions that normal soldiers wouldn't be able to make.

[Seboist]

I can assure you that a huge number of Renegade actions would land Shepard in prison or worse.

 

Nope, as Renegade Shepard has carte blanche to do as he sees fit in ME1-3 due to the Spectre Status and in the case of not having in 2, he has the full backing of Cerberus and largely operates in the Terminus. Renegade Shepard makes far more narrative sense with the Spectre position than his Paragon counterpart in fact.

[BabyPuncher]

That isn't how things work.

[The Heretic of Time]

That isn't how things work.

That's exactly how things work in the Mass Effect universe.