28 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

I've mentioned this in a few other threads, but I thought I'd create a whole new one dedicated to the idea and see what people think.

 

Throughout the series, the combat in ME has gone through redesigns, tweaks, and refinements, making it what I would consider a fairly well balanced and fun shooter RPG, but the core of the combat has remained as such: the player character and two NPC squad members proceed down a hallway or other narrow passage way until they encounter chest-high cover which signals a fire fight is imminent. They proceed to shoot it out with enemy NPCs and continue on to the next area littered with cover to repeat the process.

 

There are a few sections of the game that mix that up. Occasionally that mixing up is something as cool as the Vasir boss fight. Sometimes it's as uninspired as widening the combat area to a court yard or large room instead of a hallway. There are, of course, other variations, but this formula represents the bulk of the combat experience in these games.

 

What I want to see is something radically, conceptually different. I want to see a system that opens up the combat zone and allows us to assess the area and formulate plans of attack more complex than "shoot the guys on that side". A system that allows us to set ambushes, lure enemies into traps and cross fire. A system that makes stealth a functional and viable aspect of the game, where we can move into enemy encampments unseen and carry out sabotage and surgical strikes. A system that allows proper sniping, letting us take out enemy sentries or command units to change the tide of an up coming engagement.

 

I'd like to see more dynamic and organic combat that allows for and encourages experimentation with tactics.  I want level design that gives us multiple points of entry in any given engagement. Things like that.

 

Something that ties into this is a concept I made another thread about; the Suicide Mission Mechanic being featured more regularly in Andromeda. By that, I mean the concept of taking our companions not currently on our squad and assigning them to secondary objectives for the mission while we take on the main objective, so that the full party is actively participating. 

 

With that feature and a redesign of the nature I'm proposing, we could do things like pincer attacks on enemy forces, or other coordinated attacks, offering even more options.

 

I'm not asking for the complete removal of engagements in enclosed, tight spaces, and it's likely from a story line perspective that we'd often, or at least occasionally be the victims of an ambush as well, offering more variety. But for the standard engagement in MEA, I'd like to see something that encourages more creativity than we've seen thus far in the series; both in terms of creativity from the designers in what they can throw at us and the sandbox they can give us to play with, and creativity from us, the players, in terms of how we tackle the obstacles they put in our path.

[Chealec]

They've given us a friggin' jetpack! I want to be able to use it. I want to be able to boost up walls, dual-wielding pistols and get all John Woo on the situation!

 

Everything you've stated sounds pretty good; especially where you have secondary squads and stealthing (although that's probably tricky in a game that's not dedicated to stealth) - but I much prefer the more fluid combat of ME3 over ME1, I'd like some more verticality in it though. If I can see a ledge that I think I ought to be able to boost to, I want to be able to boost to it.

 

Could even include some complimentary biotic powers - gravity assisted nova-bomb from a second floor window (or jetpack boost) anyone? inFamous meets Titanfall (minus the Titans) with Mass Effect tech, biotics and back-story and I'm sold

[Former_Fiend]

The use of jetpacks, biotic powers, and general environments to add more third dimensional aspects to combat is definitely something I can get behind as another avenue of increasing the variety and options of engaging enemies. Anything that opens up the battlefield for us.

[RoboticWater]

I agree with you entirely; levels should be more open and approachable from multiple sides, pre-planning missions (entry/exit point, set up sniper nests, plant distractions, etc.) should included, squad tactics should be expanded, stealth should be a viable and rewarding route, and levels should be much more dynamic.

 

Here's the problem: that's super hard to do.

 

That's a laundry list of tough game mechanics to implement for a game that's already a complicated hybrid of an RPG and a TPS.

 

Bigger levels means either more level designing to do or less design per square inch. Planning and tactics require heaps of new functional equipment add a whole new level of problems for the AI to deal with, and the AI isn't too bright to begin with. More dynamic levels means either more intricate design for ever scenario or endless repetition of the same few staple of interactive level design (think exploding barrels). Proper stealth requires all of the above to work as well as more balancing.

 

If someone has a simple and elegant way to accommodate all of the above, then I'm sure BIoWare would hire you in an instant. There's no such thing as "just implementing stealth," or "just making the AI better," or "just making a reactive environment." This stuff is hard, and BioWare already has a lot on it's plate.

 

And here's the bigger problem: none of this is really BioWare's priority. They've listened to the fans and are giving us more exploration in Mass Effect than ever before; however, I'm not too confident that expanding will be a good thing for level design, AI, and dynamism. It'll likely be the same old Mass Effect, but spread out more.

[Former_Fiend]

I will admit that I don't even qualify as a novice in terms of programming or game design. My intention is, in no way, to make any of these suggestions sound easy. I appreciate that they'd be very difficult to implement.

 

I only want to say that Bioware would get quite a bit of appreciation and respect from me if they took steps in this direction, and I think they'd see the same from a large portion of the fanbase. People respect putting in that extra effort and pushing yourself.

 

At least that's what I believe; I'm an idealist like that. 

[Indigenous]

I like your ideas, however, how are video games made? I would think that by now Bioware would have laid the foundation (story, combat etc) and would be focused on bringing their ideas to life.

 

So regardless of how much I like your ideas I don't think it will influence Bioware at this point.

[BSTNY]

I would prefer more stealth options during combat, if possible. 

[SpaceLobster]

This idea is good, there is already (atleast) one video game series where stealth is a viable alternative to gunning everybody down. I really enjoyed doing that, and I can surely see how it would be interesting and highly entertaining to do so, all while using (your squadmates') biotics to kill off everybody you can't sneak up on.

[BSTNY]

This idea is good, there is already (atleast) one video game series where stealth is a viable alternative to gunning everybody down. I really enjoyed doing that, and I can surely see how it would be interesting and highly entertaining to do so, all while using (your squadmates') biotics to kill off everybody you can't sneak up on.

 

I've gotten to like it more and more, playing games stealthily. I just finished Far Cry 3 for the first time and I tried to go stealth as often as possible. 

[Former_Fiend]

I like your ideas, however, how are video games made? I would think that by now Bioware would have laid the foundation (story, combat etc) and would be focused on bringing their ideas to life.

 

So regardless of how much I like your ideas I don't think it will influence Bioware at this point.

 

I'm also acutely aware of this; it's too late in the development cycle, I would have to imagine, for Bioware to change course this drastically if they haven't already been working on something like my suggestion. 

 

I don't expect this to influence them for MEA. At best I hope that I came to a similar conclusion that they came to years ago. Beyond that, I can hope that the next time around they try something more like this.

[Mcfly616]

Stealth mechanics dammit! Such as takedowns, or simply implementing better AI. If I want to make it through an enemy encampment without firing a bullet, I should be able to do that. 

 

 

Also, low G combat. Certain environments just have a different feel.

[N7Jamaican]

I think having multiple paths to get to one objective would be best.  Also, would be a cool idea to have 2 squad mates take one path, while you take the other.  Give us more tactical control over over squad mates, and lets have the enemy try to implement tactics as well!

[StealthGamer92]

Did you say stealth? As an Infiltrator since game 1 and through 98% of my play time I would love the dev's to show my preffered class some love!

[N7Jamaican]

Did you say stealth? As an Infiltrator since game 1 and through 98% of my play time I would love the dev's to show my preffered class some love!

 

I love the Infil and Engi... I don't care much for "stealthing through a level" but it would be interesting to see if they support this playstyle.  I am not too good at stealth, and prefer a straight up fight lol.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't want to get bogged down solely on the concept of stealth, here. That is certainly one of the bigger aspects of the suggestion, but it's only one facet of it. The main idea is simply taking a more tactical approach to combat with more options for how to engage the enemy, whether via head on assault, flanking maneuvers, pincer formations, or stealth attacks and ambushes. 

 

The ideal result here is that each time I replay the game, I can approach each encounter differently and try something new, within reason. Some strategies would work better than others for each encounter, but I'm rarely to never forced into a specific way of handling a single encounter outside of instances where the plot absolutely requires it. 

[StealthGamer92]

I love the Infil and Engi... I don't care much for "stealthing through a level" but it would be interesting to see if they support this playstyle.  I am not too good at stealth, and prefer a straight up fight lol.

Stealth and Ghosting are two different thing's in stealth gaming communities, stealth at it's base is just not being detected while doing whatever you're doing in gaming term's. I Ghost on Splinter Cell, but I use stealth KO's and Stealth Kill's in MGS and both method's are totally acceptable and respected in those communities. I think ME would do better by supporting the Base stealth and Ghosting not be thought about at all by dev's because the real stealth fanatic's will make ghostig work or tell them how the first system would need to be tweaked for the next game if the dev's showed interest and asked...if stealth is added of course.

[Mcfly616]

Did you say stealth? As an Infiltrator since game 1 and through 98% of my play time I would love the dev's to show my preffered class some love!

 Same here. Tactical cloak is money. Only thing is, once you take out your first enemy your cover is blown. I hope ME:A takes the next step in class variation (such as the infiltrator) and doesn't make every enemy encounter an all out firefight like the trilogy did.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I would like it if they implemented ways for your character to use non-lethal means to get through missions. Either with stealth and/or using stuff like non-lethal rounds, like we could do on Feros with the Anti-Thorian Gas upgrade for our grenades. 

[RoboticWater]

I will admit that I don't even qualify as a novice in terms of programming or game design. My intention is, in no way, to make any of these suggestions sound easy. I appreciate that they'd be very difficult to implement.

 

I only want to say that Bioware would get quite a bit of appreciation and respect from me if they took steps in this direction, and I think they'd see the same from a large portion of the fanbase. People respect putting in that extra effort and pushing yourself.

 

At least that's what I believe; I'm an idealist like that. 

Sorry if my post came off as frustrated at you in particular. I'm mostly annoyed by the fanbase as a whole. As a software developer, it gets tiring to hear "it's so easy, just make X better." It's never that easy. Ever.

 

Even ignoring the business side of game development, systems like stealth require rather extensive work in many interlocking, low-level aspects of the game. As much as I like games like Deus Ex and Dishonored, I don't think a stealth foundation is something Mass Effect really needs, or wants for that matter. At it's core, the series is an action shooter and changing that up now isn't in the game's best interest.

 

Again, BioWare is focusing on exploration now. That might mean more options of attack, but I have an inkling that BioWare will need time to work out kinks with their scale. AI field of view will need to take a back seat.

 

I think the best route for a beneficial compromise is to expand on the tactical side of combat. Full stealth playthroughs probably won't be possible, but coordinating your squad, setting a limited amount of traps, and getting the drop on enemies might be. Mass Effect isn't a stealth game and can't become one easily, but slowly (over multiple games), enough tactical elements may become available to make it close to one.

[StealthGamer92]

Sorry if my post came off as frustrated at you in particular. I'm mostly annoyed by the fanbase as a whole. As a software developer, it gets tiring to hear "it's so easy, just make X better." It's never that easy. Ever.

 

Even ignoring the business side of game development, systems like stealth require rather extensive work in many interlocking, low-level aspects of the game. As much as I like games like Deus Ex and Dishonored, I don't think a stealth foundation is something Mass Effect really needs, or wants for that matter. At it's core, the series is an action shooter and changing that up now isn't in the game's best interest.

 

Again, BioWare is focusing on exploration now. That might mean more options of attack, but I have an inkling that BioWare will need time to work out kinks with their scale. AI field of view will need to take a back seat.

 

I think the best route for a beneficial compromise is to expand on the tactical side of combat. Full stealth playthroughs probably won't be possible, but coordinating your squad, setting a limited amount of traps, and getting the drop on enemies might be. Mass Effect isn't a stealth game and can't become one easily, but slowly (over multiple games), enough tactical elements may become available to make it close to one.

After following many stealth game's I already knew stealth had to be a hard mechanic to pull off, reason being there seem to be more dud's in the stealth genre than hit's and it make's sense to do it slowly and right over many game's if at all. I mainly bring up stealth in hope's that in the future it will be added and done right. The only thing that has made me more active on bringing it up in recent time's is Homecoming DLC which had some very basic stealth but very well done in my opinion.

[RIPRemusTheTurian]

I agree, it'd be nice to have deeper squad tactics.

While I love the combat, in ME3 your squadmates are basically just powers with a separate cooldown.

[Enigmatick]

I agree, it'd be nice to have deeper squad tactics.

While I love the combat, in ME3 your squadmates are basically just powers with a separate cooldown.

Really? I felt their ai was the best in ME3 and it was the only title where the squadmates actually made use of the guns.

[Linkenski]

I don't know if anyone posted it in the Twitter thread, but I asked Mr. Wynn if ME:A had imported ME3's combat somehow, or if it was made from scratch and he told me "It's rebuilt from scratch in the new engine, but it's safe to assume that it'll be kind of like it was in ME3"

[N7Jamaican]

I don't know if anyone posted it in the Twitter thread, but I asked Mr. Wynn if ME:A had imported ME3's combat somehow, or if it was made from scratch and he told me "It's rebuilt from scratch in the new engine, but it's safe to assume that it'll be kind of like it was in ME3"

 

I saw that, don't mind a similar feel to ME3's combat.  The combat was fun.  The best in series.  Hopefully the rebuilt combat in ME:A outshines ME3

[CrutchCricket]

something as cool as the Vasir boss fight.

*record scratch*

 

Say what?

 

There is nothing good about that fight, or anything about that piece of **** character.

 

My bottomless hate aside, you do realize it's basically a gunship-less version of the Kai Leng fight on Thessia, right? You shoot at her for a bit then she teleports to the balcony like a ****** and you have to stand around/fight some mobs before she comes back. Rinse/repeat. The only difference is she hits harder (or just hits period) and inspires screaming rage, and not hysterical laughter and/or pity.

 

 

Otherwise yeah, go stealth! And class-specific paths through some levels. And other things.