49 réponses à ce sujet

[rjshae]

Not everybody hated DA2. Opinions on metacritic seem to run 75% against it, so yes the odds are it's not going to be your taste. But I enjoyed it enough to play through a couple of times.

[MayCaesar]

From my experience with the DA:O and NWN2 toolsets, I'm inclined to say that the DA:O one is more complicated, but I was also less experienced at the time, so I can't say for sure.  I can definitely say, though, that the worst, most frustrating, and longest part of modding for it was the baking of the areas, with its buggy light mapper.

 

As for scripting, Sunjammer released numerous demo modules for DA:O showing how to script common quest update mechanics, so I know that much can be done, but I didn't attain the kind of mastery in its scripting to know whether it's as powerful as the NWN2 scripting, whereas I know that virtually anything I could possibly want to have in a quest can be done in NWN2.

 

I think it is natural that DAO toolset is more complicated, since the game apparently features such things as complex cinematics and visual effects, far surpassing anything that can be done in NWN2. This is the problem of modern games: they are so complicated that providing easy to use and, at the same time, fully functional toolsets for them is very hard. I mentioned Starcraft 2 editor compared to Warcraft 3 one: as far as I know, almost no famous Warcraft 3 map makers moved to Starcraft 2, since, although in that editor the amount of things you can do is by a few magnitudes larger than in Warcraft 3, doing simple things takes a magnitude or two as much time as in Warcraft 3.

 

As I understand, many NWN1 modders complain about NWN2 toolset for the same reason (although I've never used NWN2 toolset, so I cannot comment on that) - but the difference between NWN1 and NWN2 in terms of complexity of graphics, cinematics and such probably isn't even close to that between NWN2 and DAO, let alone later AAA games. A toolset for DAI or Mass Effect - I cannot even imagine how it could be made user friendly.

 

 

*Sorry, the quote is too long* - MayCaesar

 

I do not quite agree with it. Personally, I enjoyed DA2 a lot. While the problems you listed exist, I think people tend to give them more meaning than they have. It is not a bad game, although it definitely isn't a masterpiece either. Instead of debating how good or bad it is, I simply recommend those who don't know if they want to purchase this game ask themselves a couple of questions:

- Do I enjoy Dragon Age lore a lot and want more of it?

- Can I enjoy a game with a lot of flaws due to it being extremely rushed if the story and the lore interest me a lot?

If the answer is "yes" in both cases, I'd say DA2 is worth playing. Otherwise, I recommend just watching a story compilation on Youtube, or just read a short summary in Wiki and be done with it.

[Tchos]

I think it is natural that DAO toolset is more complicated, since the game apparently features such things as complex cinematics and visual effects, far surpassing anything that can be done in NWN2.

 

Well, I wasn't actually using any of the cinematic functionality in DA:O, so that didn't contribute to the complexity.  And it definitely wasn't by design that the light mapper is so bad.  It was because they didn't have the license to provide the one they actually used, and provided a free but quite buggy alternative.

 

Don't know about the visual effects.  I've dabbled in the visual effects editor for NWN2, and I don't really see much in the way of limitations there.  I think everything I've seen in DA:O as far as visual effects go could be done in NWN2.

[Lady Ishtar]

No RPG ever barely touched how amazing NWN2MotB is. That being said Origins is my second favorite. I'd say NWN2MotB is a 100, Origins is 11, other RPGs are 0 to 10. Dragon Age Inquisition is a 0 because when I say infinite negative values people acuse me of exaggerating when I'm really just trying to put in words an awfulness humans words can't really express.

[Shallina]

the problem with DAO toolset isn 't that it 's more complicated.

 

1 st problem is that area making take 10 times the times it does for NWN2 for result which aren't necessarry better.

2 D problem is that the light mapper is not the TRUE one and has short comming making the area making process even harder.

 

Those 2 problems really are big modding modding stopper.

 

The TRUE reason which made the BGRedux stop in my opignion is that the DAO toolset and engine doesn 't have some key features which are absolutly necessary for a BG2 remake. Picking DAO for a BG2 remake was a mistake.

[-Semper-]

For user made content, NWN2 is great, and DAO is null, it doesn't have any real user made modules, as far as I am aware.

there's also thirst. probably one of the biggest custom module created for da:o by sea, who is now working at inxile on torment. imo it's also the best thing done with the toolset.

[Groove Widdit]

DA2 must be in the running for the worse thing Bioware ever did.  I genuinely hated it and recommend against wasting your time/money on this one.

 

It is not really a continuation of the story. Just another story in the same universe.  So no need to play it for that. No need to play it at all.

 

DA2:

 

More console oriented: Classes dumbed down even more. Warriors can't dual wield or use bows anymore. Only rogues can. Just about every conversation has three choices: Good, Neutral(snarky), Bad. With little color coded graphics to let you know which is which.

 

It's a tedious cash grind. Money is very tight, you have to tediously grind out each copper. You get dirt for anything you sell (like 1/100 what it cost to buy).  You know that 1st level grind in many NWN campaigns where you are cash crunched and you have to loot everything and buy nothing in hopes of someday buying something good. In almost every NWN campaign you quickly get over that hump.  That grind never goes away in DA2.

 

Maps are tedious and re-purposed endlessly. Part of the 40 hour play time here is on twisty, aggravating to navigate small passages on maps, that you will go back and forth through dozens of times grind side quests. Some of it is because the map is the same area, just full of new enemies, but other it is supposed to be different dungeon, but they just reused the same map.

 

I also didn't like the way the story was told as a recall of past events, and the jumps of years between chapters. Hey it is three years later and I still have the same gear/cash/XPs as three years ago...

 

DA2 is a grindy, pointless filler sequel.

God, that really makes it sound horrible--ha ha. Thanks for warning me! I'm kind of slow playing the NWN2 mods. I think I can make great DD characters and have endless hours playing a CRPG I love without resorting to DA at all.

[Arkalezth]

God, that really makes it sound horrible

It does. For the record, while DA2 has its flaws, I still find it enjoyable and somewhat underrated as a whole.

I don't feel like entering a detailed discussion about it, but let's just say that I don't agree with Snowdog about some of the points he makes, and that others are hardly exclusive to DA2 (good, neutral and evil responses, I'm looking at you).

IMO: Worse than DAO? Absolutely. A bad game? Not at all. Dragon Age - Inquisition is where Bioware fucked up, if you ask me.

[MayCaesar]

Dragon Age - Inquisition is where Bioware fucked up, if you ask me.

 

If you ask me, the same happened with Witcher 3 and, probably, is going to happen with Mass Effect: Andromeda. Open world games are fun not for everyone, some people prefer classic-like small zones with densely packed content. I love DAI story (best in Dragon Age series, in my opinion), but it is an open world game with story elements, not a story-based game with open world elements, and the majority of time you do what you do in any open world games: do similar to each other side quests, travel without any particular destination, fight hordes of random enemies... Some people find it fun, but I've never done: I couldn't play any Elder Scrolls or Fallout game for more than 3-4 hours, and I am stuck in Witcher 3 now somewhere in the middle of a walkthrough, with no desire to go back to it (haven't touched it since moving to a new apartment a month ago).

 

As an open world game, DAI might be very good (in fact, it is one of the only two open world games I've ever completed - another one being Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning). But as a continuation to Dragon Age series, this is not what I wanted to see. And I think many DA players can relate.

[Arkalezth]

I agree except for DAI being a good open world game. I think they tried to copy Skyrim but failed at it. I'm not a great fan of Bethesda's style and didn't play it for too long either (some more than you, though), but IIRC, most of its quests were a little more interesting than "run around and pick up X amount of Y". It's basically a single player MMO grind, which should be self-explanatory, and a boring one at that. I enjoyed the main quest/plot and character interaction, but sadly, that's not the focus of the game.

I really, really hope ME-Andromeda doesn't turn out to be "DAI in space", but I won't be surprised if it does.

[Tchos]

I think they tried to copy Skyrim

 
At the time, they specifically said that's what they were planning, right after DA2 and shortly before announcing DA:I.  Ray Muzyka, in an interview quoted in many articles like this one, said:
 

"We're checking [Skyrim] out aggressively," he continued. "We like it. We're big admirers of [Bethesda] and the product. We think we can do some wonderful things."

[MayCaesar]

Yes, they said multiple times that they wanted to take the best from both Elder Scrolls games and Dragon Age games, "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" (thanks for the nice sentence, Saren!). In taking the best from Dragon Age games, I'd say not only they succeeded, but they surpassed it by far: the plot in DAI reminded me, more than anything else, of Mask of the Betrayer. And this conversation I would gladly label as my favorite conversation in any RPG ever, with the voice acting surpassing, pretty much, anything I've seen in games so far:

 

Spoiler

 

Now, if the whole game was like that, then I'd name DAI the best game Bioware has ever made. But as it stands, it is a relatively small part of it, maybe 30%, maybe less. The rest, alas, is what I dislike so much about open world games. You say that DAI is worse than Skyrim in this regard, but I've seen the same thing in every open world game I've played. Many people said that Witcher 3 was what DAI should have been - but all the things I hated about DAI gameplay, I hate about Witcher 3 gameplay. Open world is open world, and if you don't enjoy it, then it doesn't matter what qualities the game has. If you dislike cabbage, you can't make it tasty by pouring your favorite sauce on it: it will still be cabbage.

[Snowdog65]

It does. For the record, while DA2 has its flaws, I still find it enjoyable and somewhat underrated as a whole.

I don't feel like entering a detailed discussion about it, but let's just say that I don't agree with Snowdog about some of the points he makes, and that others are hardly exclusive to DA2 (good, neutral and evil responses, I'm looking at you).

IMO: Worse than DAO? Absolutely. A bad game? Not at all. Dragon Age - Inquisition is where Bioware fucked up, if you ask me.

 

IMO DAO was the last decent thing Bioware did(still a step in the wrong direction in many ways). It is worth playing.   DAI may be worse than DA2 for some people, but most rank them as DAO>DAI>DA2.

 

DAI, I won't bother with, as it is open world which I have never really liked, and I have already said my RIP for Bioware, they are simply EA to me now.

 

I could add more what I didn't like about DA2. There are reasons most people really disliked it.  Much of what I said before about DA2 flaws was factual, though tolerance of those flaws will vary. This is more in the area of opinion:

 

Annoying companions. Hated them all except Varric.

City not worth saving. This is struggle between sides. After seeing them both in action I would have left town. Neither side is worth defending.

Wave after wave of pop in enemies. Practically every fight has three waves of pop ins.

Enemy scaling. Some think this a good idea. I am not a fan. Waves of street punks that challenged me when I was ragged refugee on first arrival, were pretty near the same level of challenge as after I was near the end of game. Somehow all the street punks rose in strength with me...

[Snowdog65]

... the plot in DAI reminded me, more than anything else, of Mask of the Betrayer. And this conversation I would gladly label as my favorite conversation in any RPG ever, with the voice acting surpassing, pretty much, anything I've seen in games so far:

 

Spoiler

 

They do have excellent voice acting and cut scenes which is why I will watch a movie compilation and save myself the grind.

Spoiler

[MayCaesar]

 

IMO DAO was the last decent thing Bioware did(still a step in the wrong direction in many ways).

 

I completely disagree with this, and I see statements like this as simply expressions of disappointment in newer games not following old standards. Not every Bioware game has to follow Baldur's Gate / Neverwinter Nights / KotoR system. 

 

Personally, in my list of best games ever made, Mass Effect 3 and Mass Effect 2 take the first two positions. Now, I don't like open world games and MMOs, so SWTOR and DAI aren't quite games for me - but I don't call them bad just based on the fact that they were made in different ways from what I tend to like about RPGs. I can't stand Fallout / Elder Scrolls games, but you will never see me call them bad: they are not, they just aren't my cup of tea.

 

The only thing I can criticize Bioware for is its, in some sense, betrayal of fans by moving on to making games of different genres than we want. I could handle SWTOR since after 7 year I didn't really believe KotoR 3 would ever happen... I could handle DAI since, after DA2, I half-expected something like this to happen. But when they announced that Mass Effect: Andromeda was going to be open world... That was a bit too much.

 

Still, I cannot name a single Bioware game that I would consider to be bad. The worst their game, in my opinion, was Baldur's Gate 1 (I already can see tomatoes flying in my face!) - and even that game had a very high quality.

 

They do have excellent voice acting and cut scenes which is why I will watch a movie compilation and save myself the grind.

Spoiler

 

Holy... 6 hours of cutscenes. Imagine if the rest of the game was like this... But no, not even close: in my completionist playthrough, total play time in the end was 130 hours. So, like 5% of the game was what I play games like this for.

[Tchos]

The worst their game, in my opinion, was Baldur's Gate 1 (I already can see tomatoes flying in my face!) - and even that game had a very high quality

 

Yeah, for me it was either their best or second best.

[MayCaesar]

Yeah, for me it was either their best or second best.

 

I played through it last year, and I never got to play it back in 90-s. So, being free from any kind of nostalgia, I did not really enjoy the game. It felt like one big dungeon crawler, with very poor story, clunky combat mechanics, bad graphics (yes, to me it wasn't just old, but also bad, aesthetically), companions that don't have much to say, ugly D&D edition, countless fetch quests... 

 

Baldur's Gate 2 was much more enjoyable to me, it, at least, had a thrilling story, and companions were much more sociable - but all the rest, especially the clunky mechanics and countless dungeons with hordes of enemies and little story behind them, was still there.

 

I think we tend to value old games much higher than modern games because of nostalgia and because of the property of human mind to remember only good about past experiences. My first Bioware game was KotoR, and to this day it remains my third favorite RPG, after Mass Effect 2 and 3. On the other hand, official campaigns in Neverwinter Nights didn't impress me, even though essentially they were very much like KotoR. How would I feel about KotoR if I played it now the first time, without having played through it over a dozen times over the years? I am not sure I would be so keen on it.

 

Anyway, this was a bit off topic. On topic, Dragon Age: Origins is definitely worth playing. It is only $20 now for the Ultimate Editions (all official content ever released). You can't go wrong with it.

[Tchos]

I played through it last year, and I never got to play it back in 90-s. So, being free from any kind of nostalgia, I did not really enjoy the game.

I think we tend to value old games much higher than modern games because of nostalgia and because of the property of human mind to remember only good about past experiences. My first Bioware game was KotoR, and to this day it remains my third favorite RPG, after Mass Effect 2 and 3. On the other hand, official campaigns in Neverwinter Nights didn't impress me, even though essentially they were very much like KotoR. How would I feel about KotoR if I played it now the first time, without having played through it over a dozen times over the years? I am not sure I would be so keen on it.

 

I played it for the first time in 2010, after I played Dragon Age: Origins.  Nostalgia has nothing to do with it.

 

I barely got through any KotOR.  I bought it cheap on a Steam Sale and played it a couple of days, but it didn't really grab me.  Still never finished Mass Effect, either.  I was expecting it to be more like Dragon Age: Origins, and was disappointed.

 

(Also, I'm currently still in my very first playthrough of BG2.)

[MayCaesar]

I played it for the first time in 2010, after I played Dragon Age: Origins.  Nostalgia has nothing to do with it.

 

I barely got through any KotOR.  I bought it cheap on a Steam Sale and played it a couple of days, but it didn't really grab me.  Still never finished Mass Effect, either.  I was expecting it to be more like Dragon Age: Origins, and was disappointed.

 

Well, it seems we enjoy different kinds of games then. I prefer games with heavy accent on the story, and Baldur's Gate 1 didn't really deliver here.  KotoR and Mass Effect series, on the other hand, were perfect in this regard.

[Tchos]

Indeed, though I was playing with the mod that gave the companions much more dialogue.

 

I just don't like seeing "nostalgia" being used as a way of dismissing people's preferences, painting current delight as aged memory, when I know for a fact that it's not true in all cases.  Sometimes people just have different tastes.

 

Ah yes, I also want to mention that I just finished the last expansion of Icewind Dale last month.  I thought it was a good game, but better in the earlier parts.  It got a bit grindy and unfun near the end.  I have yet to begin Icewind Dale 2, but I think I'll wait until after I finish Baldur's Gate 2 (at least the Shadows of Amn part).

[MayCaesar]

I wasn't trying to use nostalgia as a way of dismissing any arguments, sorry if it looked that way. I just noticed that many people saying they prefer older things do not give newer things a fair look in game comparisons. I know I used to do this as well. Before I started giving newer games a chance in 2008, I was a devoted player of games made before 2003 or sequels to them. I wouldn't accept Warcraft 3 as a better game than Age of Empires 2, for example, even with the evidence telling me the contrary (I would have much more actual fun playing Warcraft 3, but having played AoE 2 for many years, I had a difficulty accepting that the legendary game can be outdone by something recent). I got past it with growing up, but I don't think I am completely free of it, and my fascination with KotoR (which I don't enjoy nearly as much as, say, Dragon Age: Origins) might be caused by it.

 

The relevance of this to the discussed topic is this: I would really recommend the OP not to use Dragon Age: Origins not being D&D and being quite different from Neverwinter Nights 2 in many aspects as a reason to ignore the game. It is different, but being different does not mean being worse, and it does not mean it is going to be less enjoyable. I would strongly recommend the OP to give this game a fair chance.

[Dann-J]

Personally, I prefer an open-world sandbox where I can go where I want, do what I want, and do things in the order I want. I don't like being forced to ride someone else's linear story like a rollercoaster - I might as well be watching someone else play it.

 

That said, there are good ways and bad ways to make both types of games. A really good linear story can make up for the lack of freedom, while some open-world games are just dull and uninspiring.

 

One of my favourite games is Gothic III, where you have a continuous world you can explore from the very start of the game. You start with just one main quest - 'Find Xardas'. By the time you find him you'll have visited lots of towns, explored wilderness areas, and been involved in all manner of entertaining side quests. Once you do find him things start to get a bit more linear, but there are three main plot paths you can choose to follow, and there are no ticking clocks so you can take your time doing things. If you get bored with the main story (which I frequently do), you can just wander off and explore for a while.

[Snowdog65]

 

I completely disagree with this, and I see statements like this as simply expressions of disappointment in newer games not following old standards. Not every Bioware game has to follow Baldur's Gate / Neverwinter Nights / KotoR system. 

 

 

 

Some things are opinion based on style, some things, like DA2, are just poorly executed in a number of ways (many already mentioned).

 

A style choice (thus opinion based) I hate in DA2/DAI is the switch from a more realistic take on combat animation, to a very superhero/videogamey style. Where everyone defies the laws of physics while they practically fly/teleport all over the battlefield. To me it is just silly and obnoxious. 

 

IMO the best fiction, even Science Fiction/Fantasy is about normal human beings rising to the occasion. Aragorn didn't teleport across the room to smite an orc, he ran like a human being. Can you imagine how much the LOTR movies would have been hated if the character teleported and flew around the battlefield like in DA2/DAI?

 

Holy... 6 hours of cutscenes. Imagine if the rest of the game was like this... But no, not even close: in my completionist playthrough, total play time in the end was 130 hours. So, like 5% of the game was what I play games like this for.

 

 

I actually watched the whole thing. Saved me $50 and 100+ hours of grinding.

 

Really after DAO and DA2, I am really tired of demons/darkspawn. Killing thousands more of them would only be irritation at this point. Dragon Age lore is really wearing thin on me. I find the DnD lore much richer, presenting a lot more options. Even though it was edited to minimize combat, I was having flashbacks to DA2 grinding (shudder). Combat is the more of the same blur of lights, teleporting, and Flash like speed.

[MayCaesar]

A style choice (thus opinion based) I hate in DA2/DAI is the switch from a more realistic take on combat animation, to a very superhero/videogamey style. Where everyone defies the laws of physics while they practically fly/teleport all over the battlefield. To me it is just silly and obnoxious. 

 

Yes, this is one of my main gripes with the game. I do like the combat itself there, but the way animations are drawn... reminded me of Japanese console games more than anything else. And I hate Japanese games (I love Japan though ).

 

 

IMO the best fiction, even Science Fiction/Fantasy is about normal human beings rising to the occasion. Aragorn didn't teleport across the room to smite an orc, he ran like a human being. Can you imagine how much the LOTR movies would have been hated if the character teleported and flew around the battlefield like in DA2/DAI?

 

To be fair, in LotR movies there is also a lot I would criticize. I am a physicist, so you can imagine how a human taking a huge metal sword and swinging it with one hand with it as he would swing a rope looked to me.

But yes, at least it looked somewhat plausible, given that it was a fantasy setting, and in fantasy settings a lot gets exaggerated. In DA2, on the other hand, it looked plain silly.

[rjshae]

I played through it last year, and I never got to play it back in 90-s. So, being free from any kind of nostalgia, I did not really enjoy the game. It felt like one big dungeon crawler, with very poor story, clunky combat mechanics, bad graphics (yes, to me it wasn't just old, but also bad, aesthetically), companions that don't have much to say, ugly D&D edition, countless fetch quests...

 

At the time BG first came out, there had been something of a drought since the GoldBox games, so it was a big draw for RPG gamers like me. Also, there had never been anything quite like BG; it was just about the closest to a PnP experience I had ever had with a video game, so it felt fantastic. Nowadays I agree it's just an okay game. The AD&D mechanics don't hold up well, the graphics are so-so, and most of the characters aren't as developed as they are in many modern CRPGs.