17 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I admit, I don't have the strongest evidence, but (Mordin speak) "theory fits evidence". In DAO the right was taking way longer than it should have, the templar carrying the message never made it to Denerim for some reason and Denerim never received the request for annulment. Wesley said he was on his way to Denerim for business with the templar order but had to turn south when he heard Ostagar lost to try and find Aveline. You got to admit, it's a perfect fit.

[robertmarilyn]

Somehow seeing there could be that kind of connection between all the characters in both games made me sad and nostalgic for the DAO and DA2 games and the characters.  Not that I forget them anyway but I like it when I can see ways they really connect. 

[Magdalena11]

Sure.  Things were very chaotic.  Anders was also in Denerim, having just escaped again and trying to reach Naraya.  Even though the Blight hadn't reached it yet, the first ripples of it were already spreading.  The Wardens were going nuts with Kristoff, Celene was just hitting her stride in Orlais, and the Architect was still trying to figure out a way to end the Blight by giving it to everyone.

 

Malcolm was dead and Leandra wasn't strong enough to get his family out of Lothering.  Varric was probably fed up with Bartrand and his futile efforts to fix Papa Tethras' mistakes, and settling in to the Hanged Man after his mother died.

 

Everyone could see it coming, but some didn't make it.  Maric spent 3 hours talking to Flemeth about the coming blight and what he'd have to do to stop it, but he was kidnapped and tortured, eventually dying.  He would have been captured about Dragon 9:25.

[Arisugawa]

Seems unlikely to me.

 

The events regarding Uldred's uprising take place after the Battle of Ostagar, after the surviving mages of that battle including Uldred returned to the Tower to discuss allying with Loghain.

 

Since Gregoir would not have had petitioned for the Right of Annulment until after the uprising, it's doubtful Wesley would have been anywhere near the proximity of Lothering so soon to the Hawke family fleeing.

 

That's a terrible amount of time between Ostagar's end and Wesley's return to the area for the Hawke family to be on the run and get almost nowhere: the mages would have to have fled Ostagar, made it all the way across Lake Calenhad, had their meeting with the Senior Enchanters and then began their uprising, The Templars secured the lower level and sealed it, and finally Wesley leaving the Tower and deciding to go south back across Lake Calenhad towards Ostagar all but immediately instead of heading towards Denerim.

 

It's certainly possible it took the Darkspawn a long time to move from Ostagar to Lothering, but it's hard for me to think it took that long. It's also hard for me to believe that Wesley choose to return to Ostagar so long after the battle, considering he'd have known what the state of Ostagar was from the survivors running to the tower, choosing the very remote possibility of finding Aveline and thus abandoning his Templar brothers and sisters to the very real and desperate violence occurring at the Circle Tower The very idea that he could even found Aveline at all, herself an Ostagar survivor, after so much time had passed is nigh inconceivable, or that Aveline hadn't regrouped with some other part of the surviving army by that time.

[andy6915]

Seems unlikely to me.

 

The events regarding Uldred's uprising take place after the Battle of Ostagar, after the surviving mages of that battle including Uldred returned to the Tower to discuss allying with Loghain.

 

Since Gregoir would not have had petitioned for the Right of Annulment until after the uprising, it's doubtful Wesley would have been anywhere near the proximity of Lothering so soon to the Hawke family fleeing.

 

That's a terrible amount of time between Ostagar's end and Wesley's return to the area for the Hawke family to be on the run and get almost nowhere: the mages would have to have fled Ostagar, made it all the way across Lake Calenhad, had their meeting with the Senior Enchanters and then began their uprising, The Templars secured the lower level and sealed it, and finally Wesley leaving the Tower and deciding to go south back across Lake Calenhad towards Ostagar all but immediately instead of heading towards Denerim.

 

It's certainly possible it took the Darkspawn a long time to move from Ostagar to Lothering, but it's hard for me to think it took that long. It's also hard for me to believe that Wesley choose to return to Ostagar so long after the battle, considering he'd have known what the state of Ostagar was from the survivors running to the tower, choosing the very remote possibility of finding Aveline and thus abandoning his Templar brothers and sisters to the very real and desperate violence occurring at the Circle Tower The very idea that he could even found Aveline at all, herself an Ostagar survivor, after so much time had passed is nigh inconceivable, or that Aveline hadn't regrouped with some other part of the surviving army by that time.

 

The timing matches up better than you think. It takes until after the first treaty for Lothering to fall, Lothering in fact doesn't get destroyed until at least a month after Ostagar is lost. Factor in how long travel actually takes in Ferelden, it takes a full month just to make a round trip to the Circle from Orzammar and back, 2 weeks to and back. Denerim is very far Lothering, it likely takes about 2 and a half to 3 weeks to get from there to there. And Wesley , depending on his route (if he used the northern road, which he should have), would actually have been almost as far from Lothering as you can get in Ferelden... So he probably had a longer trip than even that. Unless he actually left for Ostagar as soon as he was out of the Tower, which I actually think is far more likely. Uldred had to spend a few weeks just going to the Circle, and Wynne stayed behind a few days. Add all this up, and the timeline is likely more like this-

 

Ostagar>2 or 3 weeks pass and Uldred finally makes it to the Circle>Wynne shows up a few days later, things go to hell>Wesley is sent to Denerim, but he either turns around halfway there before rumors and stuff make it clear precisely how bad Ostagar went or he leaves for Ostagar straightaway (heading south when he should have went north)>either way he spends a minimum of 2 or 3 weeks reaching Ostagar>finds Aveline (and we know the story from there)

 

Either way Lothering isn't hit by the blight until at least a full month after Ostagar fell, perhaps even longer considering who knows how long the Warden was out cold. Bottom line, there's no way Wesley could have been sent that early, 2 weeks after Ostagar is the bare minimum amount of time it would have taken him to learn how the battle went and decided to write off his trip for Denerim in exchange for tracking his wife down.

 

And yes, this means that somehow Carver (and Hawke) somehow spent an entire month or more after Ostagar before reaching home. However, this little plot oddity had been known about for a long time. I think Carver probably got injured in the battle and wasn't fit for travel for at least a few weeks, and running home as soon as possible was delayed thanks to it. I admit, it's head-canon... But without that, it's a full-on plothole.

[Arisugawa]

Either way Lothering isn't hit by the blight until at least a full month after Ostagar fell, perhaps even longer considering who knows how long the Warden was out cold. Bottom line, there's no way Wesley could have been sent that early, 2 weeks after Ostagar is the bare minimum amount of time it would have taken him to learn how the battle went and decided to write off his trip for Denerim in exchange for tracking his wife down.

 

And yes, this means that somehow Carver (and Hawke) somehow spent an entire month or more after Ostagar before reaching home. However, this little plot oddity had been known about for a long time. I think Carver probably got injured in the battle and wasn't fit for travel for at least a few weeks, and running home as soon as possible was delayed thanks to it. I admit, it's head-canon... But without that, it's a full-on plothole.

 

I disagree.

 

Let's say my Warden doesn't immediately do any of the treaties. I go to the hub locations and do side quests. I go to Orzammar and do the stuff to win the favor of one of the contenders, but I don't undertake the Branka expedition yet. I go and do favors for the Dalish in the Brecilian Forest. I visit Denerim and handle thugs for a while.

 

We're now talking potentially 2 months or more total time in travel depending on how many stops we make for Chanter's Board quests, etc.  Trying to base travel time within the game as a measure of when Lothering fell is going to be highly subjective.

 

 

And the longer it takes, the less sense it makes for Wesley to abandon the Denerim quest to go to Lothering.

 

Could he hope to find Aveline 2 weeks after Ostagar? After a month? Is that remote a chance worth abandoning the Denerim quest for, especially considering how bad the Circle had to be for Gregoir to call for the Rite?

 

You'd think he would left immediately for Lothering after Uldred and party made it back if was going to shirk all responsibility to the Templars to go to Lothering, and not wait for Gregoir to give him something so crucial to the survival of his remaining Templar brethren.

 

Carver's line about "I / We've been running since Ostagar" somewhat precludes the idea that either Hawke or Carver was laid up from an injury and spent significant time there.

[andy6915]

I disagree.

 

Let's say my Warden doesn't immediately do any of the treaties. I go to the hub locations and do side quests. I go to Orzammar and do the stuff to win the favor of one of the contenders, but I don't undertake the Branka expedition yet. I go and do favors for the Dalish in the Brecilian Forest. I visit Denerim and handle thugs for a while.

 

We're now talking potentially 2 months or more total time in travel depending on how many stops we make for Chanter's Board quests, etc.  Trying to base travel time within the game as a measure of when Lothering fell is going to be highly subjective.

 

 

And the longer it takes, the less sense it makes for Wesley to abandon the Denerim quest to go to Lothering.

 

Could he hope to find Aveline 2 weeks after Ostagar? After a month? Is that remote a chance worth abandoning the Denerim quest for, especially considering how bad the Circle had to be for Gregoir to call for the Rite?

 

You'd think he would left immediately for Lothering after Uldred and party made it back if was going to shirk all responsibility to the Templars to go to Lothering, and not wait for Gregoir to give him something so crucial to the survival of his remaining Templar brethren.

 

Carver's line about "I / We've been running since Ostagar" somewhat precludes the idea that either Hawke or Carver was laid up from an injury and spent significant time there.

 

Canon is canon. It's a fact that it takes 2 weeks to go to the Circle from Orzammar (which means a full month for a round trip), said by Dagna when she wonders how you're talking to her so soon “You're back? But it takes two weeks and four days minimum to make the journey to the Circle Tower”. That's canon, whether you like it or not. Another piece of canon is that the game only takes about a year or a year and a few months, no matter if you realistically traveled around enough to make the game take place over the course of 5 years.

 

Wesley already shirked responsibility. He had to have heard about what happened at the Circle, everyone was talking about it even at Lothering when you first get there. Yet he still decided to leave for Ostagar/Lothering. I don't see fault with it, he chose personal love over responsibility, I can't blame him. Even Aveline says "bad luck... AND JUDGEMENT... Brought us together before the attack", I'd say choosing to chase after her instead of helping his brothers and sisters in the Templars counts as bad judgement.

 

And no, Carver's line doesn't preclude anything. He merely meant he got there as soon as he possibly could, as soon that "soon" is was up for debate. It's a fact that Lothering takes until after the first treaty quest (or on the trip to the first treaty), and it's a fact that with travel time and how long the Warden was out that at least a month passes. This plot problem has existed since DA2 came out and was discussed a lot back when DA2 was new, this didn't just come up with this topic. You just have to accept that Carver somehow took a month or more to reach home again, one way or another.

 

Face it, Bioware isn't good at making timelines make sense. Look at Anders and how he somehow got the the Free Marches practically immediately after Awakening, all while acting like he's a warden veteran already.

[Illegitimus]

I admit, I don't have the strongest evidence, but (Mordin speak) "theory fits evidence". In DAO the right was taking way longer than it should have, the templar carrying the message never made it to Denerim for some reason and Denerim never received the request for annulment. Wesley said he was on his way to Denerim for business with the templar order but had to turn south when he heard Ostagar lost to try and find Aveline. You got to admit, it's a perfect fit.

 

Mm, I don't much like it.  It doesn't do Wesley any credit if his business is a crisis like that one and he turns aside.  And there isn't really any textual evidence that the response to the rite request was overdue.  

[Arisugawa]

Canon is canon. It's a fact that it takes 2 weeks to go to the Circle from Orzammar (which means a full month for a round trip), said by Dagna when she wonders how you're talking to her so soon “You're back? But it takes two weeks and four days minimum to make the journey to the Circle Tower”. That's canon, whether you like it or not. Another piece of canon is that the game only takes about a year or a year and a few months, no matter if you realistically traveled around enough to make the game take place over the course of 5 years.

 

Dagna, who at that point had never left Orzammar and would be relying almost entirely on anecdotal accounts brought in from books, or dwarves that dealt with surfacer trade, is a reliable narrator for travel time?

 

2 weeks 4 days on foot? 2 weeks 4 days on horseback? 2 weeks 4 days for a caravan?

 

2 weeks 4 days using the Imperial Highway, or some other road? 2 weeks 4 days going cross country instead of using roads?

 

I don't have to accept that as accurate at all, much less a canon measurement. It's one character's estimation of something she has never done and provides no context for how she is measuring it.

 

And as far as Wesley goes, I still do not accept him deciding forgo the Rite of Annulment trip to find Aveline when he could just as easily left as soon as he got word of what happened at Ostagar. It puts the scene with Bethany in even worse context - he abandons his brethren in the middle of the worst crisis possible to go find his wife, but as soon as he comes upon an apostate, he's suddenly on duty again until Aveline talks him down? It's an odd shift of responsibility for someone who abandoned the Order to their fate earlier.

[Arisugawa]

Even if you didn't accept that, Wesley somehow still derailed himself from "business with the Chantry in Denerim" and caught to Aveline instead. And she was perturbed herself that he did so, calling it bad judgement. So he shows he cares about his wife than job as it is. To his surprise, it was even worse than he thought. "I can't believe the darkspawn attacked so quickly". So news was still unknown and fresh by the time he got there. It's not like the Warden was just jerking around and every knew how bad the horde was amassing just yet.

 

So either way, he shirked some duty of his to the Chantry, annulment or not. And you're making him too bound to the Templar Order. He backs down and works with apostates in that crisis. And it's not like he's a Qunari. That's about the only guys you should expect to do their job and nothing but.

 

A massive difference exists between say, abandoning a supply run to pick up materials to construct phylacteries, and abandoning the request for the Rite of Annulment when the Circle Tower is sealed above the first level due the outright slaughter of its inhabitants due to an Abomination uprising.

 

The two are not equatable. Context matters when making these kinds of decisions.

 

Abandoning a supply run upon hearing that Ostagar fell? I get that.

Abandoning the Rite of Annulment when the crisis is still very much real and people are still dying? No, I don't buy that.

[Lazarillo]

I could be remembering wrong, but doesn't the Knight-Captain at the Lothering Chantry mention that he's heard word the Circle has already sent for the Rite of Annulment when the Warden arrives there?  I know Morrigan, at least, makes a comment about the mages getting "fricasseed" if you inquire with him about them.  That seems to imply that Wesley, who was on his way to Denerim when Hawke encountered him after the Warden had already left the town, could not have been bringing the request for the Rite. 

 

More likely, I think, is that the request made it to Denerim, and Loghain quashed it due to his alliance with Uldred.  Certainly, that was always the impression I got when playing the original game, at least.

[Teddie Sage]

Oh wow. Never thought about that. Clever.