Yeah, it did have a story, but I do take issue with how increasingly little emphasis there's on it, because Bioware is on the bandwagon of "environmental storytelling" and stuff now... It's okay, it's just not as effective as telling it through more cinematic cutscenes and dialogue and better side-content IMO.
Well, like I said, if the side content of the vanilla game was JoH-quality, it would have been a much better game overall.
Not really. I thought the side content of JoH was a bit less in its quantity but still had 3 too many "Find my missing (person)" or "I've lost my (wearable)" quests. I also thought the part where you had to activate the mirrors of its main quests was awfully executed in quest/level design.
My impression was that JoH was the same quality as the vanilla game, which I've played through almost 3 times now, so I stand by that.
With that said, I think DA:I isn't terrible like some make it sound like, but it was like a 7,5/10 kind of game to me.
Not really. I thought the side content of JoH was a bit less in its quantity but still had 3 too many "Find my missing (person)" or "I've lost my (wearable)" quests. I also thought the part where you had to activate the mirrors of its main quests was awfully executed in quest/level design.
My impression was that JoH was the same quality as the vanilla game, which I've played through almost 3 times now, so I stand by that.
With that said, I think DA:I isn't terrible like some make it sound like, but it was like a 7,5/10 kind of game to me.
Nonono! I mean if the side content of other areas (like , say the Blades of Hessarian in Storm Coast or Imshael in Emprise du Lion) had been more like the main story of Jaws of Hakkon's main story, the overall game would have been much higher quality.
Sure, but it's anchored in the world. You couldn't just transplant it into another world because it means that Bull leaves the Qun behind or not. If Dorian's quest was just about his sexuality, it would be meaningless except as a disjoined lesson about tolerance - the kind we could do without in a video game, no matter that the real world needs it. As it is, it's about more than that and it illustrates aspects of Tevinter culture.Oh, I definitely liked the companions, but guess I disagree with your main point then. I don't think it's just their connection to the world that's important. It's also their philosophies, motivations, and etc. Take Iron Bull's companion quest, and the decision between saving the Chargers or the Dreadnought. That's not just soapy drama. It's an examination of his inner conflict.
Nonono! I mean if the side content of other areas (like , say the Blades of Hessarian in Storm Coast or Imshael in Emprise du Lion) had been more like the main story of Jaws of Hakkon's main story, the overall game would have been much higher quality.
Oh, well, in that sense. Yeah, it certainly would, but I still don't think it would've saved the game from being kind of bland in its main story.
Sure, but it's anchored in the world. You couldn't just transplant it into another world because it means that Bull leaves the Qun behind or not. If Dorian's quest was just about his sexuality, it would be meaningless except as a disjoined lesson about tolerance - the kind we could do without in a video game, no matter that the real world needs it. As it is, it's about more than that and it illustrates aspects of Tevinter culture.
Dorian's quest and DA:I in general seemed to adjust way too much to our real world as opposed to staying true to its own world if you ask me. That super handwavy paper you could find that said "Sexuality in Thedas" I think that was crossing the line a bit in how obvious the identity-change was.
It wasn't a story that had anything to do with the Elder One, the war in Orlais, the mage/Templar conflict, etc. It was its own self-contained narrative. And that's fine.
I'm glad about this. I beat the game twice without JoH so to shoehorn some "Elder One/Civil War/MvT" stuff in there would just come off as artificial.
That was my issue with the Leviathan DLC early on. Hackett gives you some hyperbolic speech about a discovery that could help defeat the Reapers...only I didn't need them the two play-thrus I did before, so it sounds kinda silly and melodramatic.
I'm glad about this. I beat the game twice without JoH so to shoehorn some "Elder One/Civil War/MvT" stuff in there would just come off as artificial.
That was my issue with the Leviathan DLC early on. Hackett gives you some hyperbolic speech about a discovery that could help defeat the Reapers...only I didn't need them the two play-thrus I did before, so it sounds kinda silly and melodramatic.
It's just kind of cheap to constantly address issues after the fact. I'm sure most people loved to have Leviathan but to me it just further cheapened the Reapers. In this game, I find it more appropriate since there was talks of the original Inquisitor before but it didn't seem like something you needed to know about in order to get the main plot, whereas in ME3 Leviathan was the only context to set up the whole "theme" there at the end of that game.
I define story element that
a ) Further substantially develops the overarching story of series
or
b ) Further character development.
Sorry but Citadel did a **** ton for me in terms of the latter.
That's why I like Lair of the Shadow Broker and even Arrival over DA's DLC so far...
The former developed Liara's arc while Arrival helped push the series into a greater understanding of Cerberus, Reapers, and setting the stage for the incoming game.
That was my issue with the Leviathan DLC early on. Hackett gives you some hyperbolic speech about a discovery that could help defeat the Reapers...only I didn't need them the two play-thrus I did before, so it sounds kinda silly and melodramatic.
I don't think I understand your point, here. Aren't all personal conflicts anchored in the world they are set in? What would be an example of one that isn't, and as such, is just soapy drama?
Ask yourself: can you translate a conflict into the real world without any significant change? Typically in movies, that includes all sorts of family drama put in because the makers think they need more emotional connection, for instance, if in a movie about an alien invasion, it just happens the child of the protagonist fell into enemy hands, and that's why the protagonist ends up defeating the aliens in the end. Such things always make me groan.
Contrast, in DAI, the backstory of Chateau d'Onterre. Also family drama. Abuse of children for various reasons is common both in Thedas and IRL. However, it is actually not a story about child abuse as the primary cause of drama, but about magic and spirits.
As I said, DAI is generally ok in that regard. I was talking about requests for more character interaction, citing ME3's Citadel as an example - which features exactly the meaningless type of interaction that exists to get you emotionally involved, with no other role and thus irrelevant and uninteresting, except for the function it fulfilled on the meta-level.
Ask yourself: can you translate a conflict into the real world without any significant change? Typically in movies, that includes all sorts of family drama put in because the makers think they need more emotional connection, for instance, if in a movie about an alien invasion, it just happens the child of the protagonist fell into enemy hands, and that's why the protagonist ends up defeating the aliens in the end. Such things always make me groan.
Contrast, in DAI, the backstory of Chateau d'Onterre. Also family drama. Abuse of children for various reasons is common both in Thedas and IRL. However, it is actually not a story about child abuse as the primary cause of drama, but about magic and spirits.
As I said, DAI is generally ok in that regard. I was talking about requests for more character interaction, citing ME3's Citadel as an example - which features exactly the meaningless type of interaction that exists to get you emotionally involved, with no other role and thus irrelevant and uninteresting, except for the function it fulfilled on the meta-level.
Well, Dragon Age isn't actually a story of your protagonists, it's Thedas' story. I am 90% this is word of God, I just can't remember where it is I read it. Hence, JoH and Descent have oodles of story content, they're just not yours and they're not that obvious unless you keep your eyes and ears open. DA:I's character story is definitely weak, and definitely could have used more work, but there's a reason the protagonist has thus far never stayed the same. Ultimately, each installment is (or at least aims to be) like each book in the LoTR trilogy, but the story the writers are really trying to tell is the Silmarillion-esque mass lurking just behind. Or, if you prefer, living in The Matrix as a regularish person, fixing the glitches that happen without realising what they are exactly, while your actions slowly chip away at the truth of what exactly your world is.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Well, Dragon Age isn't actually a story of your protagonists, it's Thedas' story. I am 90% this is word of God, I just can't remember where it is I read it. Hence, JoH and Descent have oodles of story content, they're just not yours and they're not that obvious unless you keep your eyes and ears open. DA:I's character story is definitely weak, and definitely could have used more work, but there's a reason the protagonist has thus far never stayed the same. Ultimately, each installment is (or at least aims to be) like each book in the LoTR trilogy, but the story the writers are really trying to tell is the Silmarillion-esque mass lurking just behind. Or, if you prefer, living in The Matrix as a regularish person, fixing the glitches that happen without realising what they are exactly, while your actions slowly chip away at the truth of what exactly your world is.
And yet this is no typical hero. Like I quoted Varric in another thread: "Heroes are everywhere. I've seen those. But the hole in the sky? We're going to need a miracle." And this sets up where this new character stands.
Gone are the Hawkes and the Black Foxes and Avelines and whatever dashing rogue, badass mage, Loghain, Dane, or sword wielding Warden you can think of. This is no longer about being another hero in a larger world. Now you're playing someone who basically dictates and overpowers the world around them, rather than being a part of the world. And they transform the world so drastically that I highly doubt we'll even get to have fun in these places again. It's over and ruined forever. Southern Thedas now would require multiple games-within-a-game to even work. And worse yet, it doesn't even matter what this character has to do with the world themselves, why they care about anything at all, or how they relate to it.
Whatever they said about Dragon Age about being about many characters, they sort of spoiled it now. They've upped the ante and turned you into a virtual dictator who LITERALLY comes out of nowhere and plays god over everyone's lives. For no reason in particular. And they're so big that the Hero of Orlais (Cassandra) and Hawke defer to you.... just because. Every character - and every normal hero character we'll play - will be a scrub compared to this.
And the moral of this story:
Everyone has a different definition of "story content" and everyone has different expectations.
Bioware (or any other developer) will never be able to please everyone, ever, it's physically not possible. Well, maybe if the entire customer base becomes clones and has the same experiences in their life.
And yet this is no typical hero. Like I quoted Varric in another thread: "Heroes are everywhere. I've seen those. But the hole in the sky? We're going to need a miracle." And this sets up where this new character stands.
Gone are the Hawkes and the Black Foxes and Avelines and whatever dashing rogue, badass mage, Loghain, Dane, or sword wielding Warden you can think of. This is no longer about being another hero in a larger world. Now you're playing someone who basically dictates and overpowers the world around them, rather than being a part of the world. And they transform the world so drastically that I highly doubt we'll even get to have fun in these places again. It's over and ruined forever. Southern Thedas now would require multiple games-within-a-game to even work. And worse yet, it doesn't even matter what this character has to do with the world themselves, why they care about anything at all, or how they relate to it.
Whatever they said about Dragon Age about being about many characters, they sort of spoiled it now. They've upped the ante and turned you into a virtual dictator who LITERALLY comes out of nowhere and plays god over everyone's lives. For no reason in particular. And they're so big that the Hero of Orlais (Cassandra) and Hawke defer to you.... just because. Every character - and every normal hero character we'll play - will be a scrub compared to this.
I have to take issue with this the bold. The whole point is that people follow you not because of who you actually are, but because of what they think you are: a literal agent of the Maker who can close holes in the sky. By the time this is proven wrong, you've already proven yourself a capable leader, and thus people continue to follow you.
And why does it matter if the next protagonist doesn't live up to this? Would there be something wrong with Bioware taking the power trip down a few notches in the next game?
Guest_StreetMagic_*
And the moral of this story:
Everyone has a different definition of "story content" and everyone has different expectations.
Bioware (or any other developer) will never be able to please everyone, ever, it's physically not possible. Well, maybe if the entire customer base becomes clones and has the same experiences in their life.
I don't want them to meet everyone's expectations, personally. I don't do this to other writers (novels, scripts). I just expect a good story, and tend to get it (not 100 percent of the time, but whatever). I'd rather that writers use their own judgement than trying to do things for other people.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I have to take issue with this the bold. The whole point is that people follow you not because of who you actually are, but because of what they think you are: a literal agent of the Maker who can close holes in the sky. By the time this is proven wrong, you've already proven yourself a capable leader, and thus people continue to follow you.
And why does it matter if the next protagonist doesn't live up to this? Would there be something wrong with Bioware taking the power trip down a few notches in the next game?
I'd rather never have the power trip to begin with. I never asked for it at least. I liked stories of typical heroes already (who are already power fantasies as it is). I didn''t need a fable or tale of a chosen one. That crap belongs elsewhere. Pretty popular subject in the Elder Scrolls, for one. This just ruins an otherwise moderately down to earth fantasy setting. It's completely bombastic now. I wouldn't care much about Game of Thrones either, if Daenarys reached the same level and just dominated over Tyrion/Jaime/all of Westeros/etc.. It's called "jumping the shark". The moment when even Fonzie looks like a retard.
And why does it matter if the next protagonist doesn't live up to this? Would there be something wrong with Bioware taking the power trip down a few notches in the next game?
Dorian's quest and DA:I in general seemed to adjust way too much to our real world as opposed to staying true to its own world if you ask me. That super handwavy paper you could find that said "Sexuality in Thedas" I think that was crossing the line a bit in how obvious the identity-change was.
And yet this is no typical hero. Like I quoted Varric in another thread: "Heroes are everywhere. I've seen those. But the hole in the sky? We're going to need a miracle." And this sets up where this new character stands.
Gone are the Hawkes and the Black Foxes and Avelines and whatever dashing rogue, badass mage, Loghain, Dane, or sword wielding Warden you can think of. This is no longer about being another hero in a larger world. Now you're playing someone who basically dictates and overpowers the world around them, rather than being a part of the world. And they transform the world so drastically that I highly doubt we'll even get to have fun in these places again. It's over and ruined forever. Southern Thedas now would require multiple games-within-a-game to even work. And worse yet, it doesn't even matter what this character has to do with the world themselves, why they care about anything at all, or how they relate to it.
Whatever they said about Dragon Age about being about many characters, they sort of spoiled it now. They've upped the ante and turned you into a virtual dictator who LITERALLY comes out of nowhere and plays god over everyone's lives. For no reason in particular. And they're so big that the Hero of Orlais (Cassandra) and Hawke defer to you.... just because. Every character - and every normal hero character we'll play - will be a scrub compared to this.
I have to agree with this, the Inquisitor is basically the Jebus 2.0. He didn´t feel like a pc character, very low level connection. Not like in the previous games.
DAI, by dint of the fact that Exalted Marches was cancelled had to do a lot. I believe if we'd gotten the expantion we'd have has less crammed into this.
Now with retrospect I am really sad they did not go ahead and do it.
I don't want them to meet everyone's expectations, personally. I don't do this to other writers (novels, scripts). I just expect a good story, and tend to get it (not 100 percent of the time, but whatever). I'd rather that writers use their own judgement than trying to do things for other people.
Absolutely. However, in a game with strong roleplaying aspects that applies only to the world and to NPCs. This isn't a book or a movie, thus they need to accomodate different player preferences to some degree when it comes to the protagonists and what they're allowed to do and to say. If a protagonist in a book does something you don't agree with, that's no big matter, because that character doesn't necessarily connect to you, you just witness their story. If *your* character does something you don't agree with, that's different, it feels like the game makes you complicit in acting against yourself, and I expect the writers to take that into account in a game where we're supposed to shape our characters to some degree.
BTW, I don't always play self-inserts, but there are character traits I just refuse to play because I'm too opposed to them IRL, and if they force those on my characters because that's their vision for the story I'm going to be p*ssed. Seriously.
Agreed. DAI seems to be the point at which Bioware lost it's nerve with presenting confronting ideas openly. It feels like they are now worried about "triggering" (I hate that term so much) people, so everything is being presented in a much more sanitised way, and the truly dark stuff is done offscreen and only referred to in codex entries. I very much miss the more visceral ASOIAF style approach of Origins and DA2 which were much more unapologetic about presenting the brutality of the world these character inhabit.
QFT. This is probably my main complaint about DAI, together with the generally low story density overall and in most open-world maps. It all feels clean and sanitized. it's very much ok to avoid forcing the protagonist into behaviour you don't like, but as in the real world, so in a story that aims to be somewhat serious, we shouldn't have the "freedom" not to be confronted with things we don't like. That's taking pc too far.
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