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Crit Chain Talents Are Still Terrible (With Simulations!)


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#1
MagicalMaster

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So, let me start off by saying that I'm not claiming Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain are terrible because I have 100% crit chance from Cunning promotions (I don't).  Nor am I even saying they're terrible because I have 60% crit or 40% crit or whatever number you want to throw in.

 

They're still terrible even at the base 5% crit where they give an average bonus of 6.3-6.4%.  And if you assume the character has at least some other crit boosters (from gear, promotions, or class skills) to get to even 15% crit...that bonus drops to 3.8% overall crit.

 

To put that in perspective, most people think the passives that give pure stats are pretty bad.  And those passives give 9 total stats.  9 Cunning alone is 4.5% crit *and* 4.5% reduced ranged damage...and half of that bonus is already better than the crit chain talents with 15% starting crit.

 

Yeah.

 

So here are some various numbers for perspective (all of these were generated using 100,000 trials and the code is included at the end of the post for people who want to test it themselves):

 

5% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 6.32% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 3.76% crit from talent

30% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 1.99% crit from talent

50% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 0.93% crit from talent

75% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 0.32% crit from talent

 

5% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 9.45% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 6.27% crit from talent

30% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 3.56% crit from talent

50% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 1.77% crit from talent

75% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 0.63% crit from talent

 

5% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 15.58% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 11.42% crit from talent

30% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 7.22% crit from talent

50% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 3.88% crit from talent

75% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 1.46% crit from talent

 

So...yeah.  I'd also point out that given Rogues get Cunning from quite a few of their skills in the first place it's basically impossible for them to really even be at 5% crit.  Which means even a 10% crit increase per attack seems reasonable as it's likely to be at 12.5% overall increase best case and for people with reasonable gear/levels (even ignoring promotions) I wouldn't be surprised if it was usually 8% crit or less.

 

Maybe I wildly screwed up the following C code (I almost hope so, I slapped it together quickly) but some basic tests seemed to pan out correctly...

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <time.h>

float ChainFunction(float fCrit, float fCritIncrease)
{
        float fTotalCrit = fCrit, fRandom;
        int nPass = 1;

        while(1)
        {
                fRandom = ((float) rand()/(float)(RAND_MAX))* 100.0;

                if (fRandom < fCrit)
                {
                        return fTotalCrit/nPass;
                }

                fCrit += fCritIncrease;
                fTotalCrit += fCrit;
                ++nPass;
        }
}

int main(void)
{
        srand(time(NULL));

        float fCrit, fCritIncrease, fReturn, fCritSum = 0.0;
        int nTrials, nCounter = 1;

        printf("\nEnter the starting crit chance: ");
        scanf("%f", &fCrit);
        printf("Enter the crit increase per attack: ");
        scanf("%f", &fCritIncrease);
        printf("Enter the number of trials: ");
        scanf("%d", &nTrials);

        while (nCounter <= nTrials)
        {
                fReturn = ChainFunction(fCrit, fCritIncrease);
                fCritSum += fReturn;

                if (nTrials < 20)
                {
                        printf("Average crit chance on Trial %d was %f\n", nCounter, fReturn);
                }

                ++nCounter;
        }

        printf("\nOverall crit percentage was %f\n", fCritSum/nTrials);
        printf("Benefit from crit chain talent is %f\n\n", (fCritSum/nTrials) - fCrit);

        return 0;
}


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#2
Wavebend

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while(1), seriously??

 

I'm just kidding



#3
MagicalMaster

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Edit: apparently you edited in your "I'm just kidding" line as I quoted your whole post for the below response.

 

while(1), seriously??

 

Your objection is?...

 

...the lack of failsafe for some quick code I slapped together?  The only way for it to infinitely loop would be if someone didn't enter a positive crit increase chance.  This wasn't meant to be some amazing application with protection against user error.  You could screw it up in other ways too.



#4
ParthianShotX

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where's the :eyes glazed over: emoticon?


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#5
ErySakasegawa

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Are you talking about Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain being now 2% and still useless? (no opinion here, just a reading comprehension question since the name of the passive wasn't mentioned here).

 

Personally, I mostly don't like them, along with Sneak Attack and Opportunist, to be in the center of a skill tree. Making them mandatory is stupid when you can promote your critical hit rate to 100%. I'm around 110 cunning promotions, which is a point where I don't really need those passives. Annoying for me to have to skill them (i. e. Alchemist, Katari).

 

For low to mid cunning promoted players those are very good passives. Even more so, after this update as Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain having it's effect doubled. No skill point wasted here on low-mid promoted players. 



#6
MagicalMaster

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Are you talking about Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain being now 2% and still useless? (no opinion here, just a reading comprehension question since the name of the passive wasn't mentioned here).

 

Yes, they've been doubled in power and are still terrible.

 

For low to mid cunning promoted players those are very good passives. Even more so, after this update as Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain having it's effect doubled. No skill point wasted here on low-mid promoted players. 

 

No, they're not.  Did you even read my post?  Even with exactly 5% crit (meaning no promotions, no Cunning from passives, no crit on gear, etc)...it's only 6.32% more crit chance.  And getting up to 15% crit basically cuts that bonus in half.



#7
ErySakasegawa

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Yes, I did read your post. You never stated the passives you are referring to though. That's why I asked. That being said, didn't check the code.

 

Taking the Alchemist as example, who has (after a quick check) one of the highest cunning passive of all. 6 cunning + 3 dexterity.

Unlocking Unforgiving Chain gives you 3 dexterity, too, which equals out that stat. 6 cunning translates to 3% crit chance. Unforgiving Chain gives you 2% on the initial hit. Being naked that's:

 

5%+3%=8% for the passive only, those are guaranteed.

5%+2%=7% for Unforgiving Chain, those increase by 2%. That takes one non critical hit to surpass the effectiveness of the passive. Of course the higher your cunning the lower the chance you surpass the 3% by the passive.

 

The effectiveness begins to equal on 50% crit chance with a little advantage of Unf. Chain. In average every two turns Unf. Ch. surpasses the passive. The same applies for the passive. Above 50% the passive begins to outperform Unf. Ch. in average. That being said...Above 50% crit rate I'd not either skill any of those passives. Crit Chance should be high enough to, imo, waste a point on those.

 

On rogue classes it's easy to reach the 50% crit chance, imo. Many passives give you free cunning, Sneak Attack doubles your crit chance and your get plenty of it on daggers, which can be equipped in two slots, and on armor upgrades. I'd say Unf. Ch. is pretty fast marginal, even for a beginner.

 

Then we have the warrior classes. They're using Relentless Attack. Same principles but you cannot get cunning on armor upgrades, cunning points are not as easily handed out on passives, no Sneak Attack (save Katari's Opportunist) and less crit chance on 2handers overall (i reckon this one). I can see low-mid promoted players profit from Rel. Atk. quite decently. Especially on Reaver/Avvar.

 

For high promoted (100+) players like me, those skill are utter garbage, when positioned in the tree center, as I said before. Cunning promotions render those skills useless. Being forced to take them is annoying. Nevertheless I can still see their right to exist. 

 

Also, free upgrade is free xD If you have to take it you can enjoy the double crit chance^^"



#8
MagicalMaster

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Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.  I gave you the data in two forms:

 

1, a summary of the value of the talent at different levels of crit.  I'll repost the current in-game values here for your convenience

 

5% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 6.32% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 3.76% crit from talent

30% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 1.99% crit from talent

50% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 0.93% crit from talent

75% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 0.32% crit from talent

 

2, the actual code for more advanced/serious people who want to check the math and/or run the code themselves to verify my results.

 

Yes, I did read your post. You never stated the passives you are referring to though. That's why I asked. That being said, didn't check the code.

 

You don't have to check the code unless you think my results are wrong.  That's precisely why I provided those 15 lines of data so people didn't *have* to check/understand the code.

 

Taking the Alchemist as example, who has (after a quick check) one of the highest cunning passive of all. 6 cunning + 3 dexterity.

Unlocking Unforgiving Chain gives you 3 dexterity, too, which equals out that stat. 6 cunning translates to 3% crit chance. Unforgiving Chain gives you 2% on the initial hit. Being naked that's:

 

6 Cunning is not 3% crit chance.  6 cunning is 3% crit chance *and* 3% less ranged damage.  Even if you think the 3% crit chance is, say, twice as good as the 3% less ranged damage...that's the equivalent of 4.5% crit chance overall.

 

The question is then "When is 4.5% crit chance overall better than Unforgiving Chain?"  The answer?  12% crit or better.

 

Looking at the Alchemist, Sneak Attack (required) gives 3 Cunning.  Even if we ignore everything else, we need a whole 12% - 1.5% - 5% = 4.5% Crit from *any* other source (other skills, promotions, weapon mods, weapon properties, armor upgrades, or accessories) to make her passive better than Unforgiving Chain.

 

5%+3%=8% for the passive only, those are guaranteed.

5%+2%=7% for Unforgiving Chain, those increase by 2%. That takes one non critical hit to surpass the effectiveness of the passive. Of course the higher your cunning the lower the chance you surpass the 3% by the passive.

 

No, your math is wrong.  Here's why:

 

You have 8% crit with the passive on every hit.

 

For Unforgiving Chain, the first hit is 5%, then 7%, then 9%, then 11%, and so on until you actually crit.  So if your crit was high enough that you crit every other hit (which is what your "one non critical hit" means) and your crit chance was X%, then your attacks would look like this:

 

X%

X% + 2%

X%

X% + 2%

 

indefinitely.  Which averages out to 1% more crit overall.

 

The effectiveness begins to equal on 50% crit chance with a little advantage of Unf. Chain. In average every two turns Unf. Ch. surpasses the passive. The same applies for the passive. Above 50% the passive begins to outperform Unf. Ch. in average. That being said...Above 50% crit rate I'd not either skill any of those passives. Crit Chance should be high enough to, imo, waste a point on those.

 

Again, this is wrong.  If you have 50% crit chance then Unforgiving Chain only provides 0.93% more crit overall -- a THIRD of the passive's crit.  The passive is over THREE times as strong, and that's ignoring the reduction in ranged damage from Cunning from the passive too.  Unforgiving Chain is not nearly as good as you think it is -- which is the whole point of this post.

 

Then we have the warrior classes. They're using Relentless Attack. Same principles but you cannot get cunning on armor upgrades, cunning points are not as easily handed out on passives, no Sneak Attack (save Katari's Opportunist) and less crit chance on 2handers overall (i reckon this one). I can see low-mid promoted players profit from Rel. Atk. quite decently. Especially on Reaver/Avvar.

 

Again, even a player without any promotions is only going to get 6.32% crit from Relentless Attack.  If you have 10 Rogue promotions then it's 4.82% more crit.  If you have 20 Rogue promotions it's 3.76%.  And it keeps going downhill.

 

And that's ignoring the idea of wearing a Cunning necklace, ring(s) of Critical Chance, weapon modifications with Critical Chance, weapon passives with Critical Chance, and class passives (Reaver is guaranteed to get 3 Cunning, Avvar is very likely to get 3 Cunning).

 

For high promoted (100+) players like me, those skill are utter garbage, when positioned in the tree center, as I said before. Cunning promotions render those skills useless. Being forced to take them is annoying. Nevertheless I can still see their right to exist.

 

I have a total of 22/17/22 atm I believe (that's including the base 10).  I'm not talking from the perspective of a high promoted player.  Hell, I'm not even talking from *my* lowly promotion perspective.  I'm talking from the perspective of someone with 0 promotions -- it's still terrible for them.

 

Also, free upgrade is free xD If you have to take it you can enjoy the double crit chance^^"

 

It's not free because you're having to spend an ability point on it in the first place.

 

If you mean that in the sense of "If you were forced to take it anyway then it's better" then...it's not double crit chance.  In fact, the difference between 1% stacking and 2% stacking if you're at 5% crit is only 4.1% and 6.32% -- barely a 50% increase from the talent.

 

On the flip side, if you're at 30% crit to start then it's now 1.06% vs 1.99% -- it makes MORE of a difference if you have a higher crit chance already.  But if your crit chance is higher than it's even worse in the first place!



#9
ErySakasegawa

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While obviously wrong on the 5%+2% part I feel quite like you tear the strips off me. I agreed twice with your point of view, which you seemingly ignore. Also, I seem to be the only person to answer your post seriously, which you don't think I do. That's why I leave your post and future postings alone.



#10
MagicalMaster

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While obviously wrong on the 5%+2% part

 

What does this even mean?

 

"Your daggers blur, a dance of deadly pain. Each strike adds to your critical hit chance. After a critical attack, your chain resets as you begin another dance."

 

You start at 5% crit.  You hit, which therefore increases your crit chance by 2% because you didn't crit.  Your next attack is at 7% crit -- if it hits, you add another 2% to have 9% crit for your third strike and so on, otherwise you reset back to 5% crit if you actually crit.

 

If I'm wrong about my interpretation then I think it's hardly "obvious."

 

I feel quite like you tear the strips off me. I agreed twice with your point of view, which you seemingly ignore.

 

I "tore the strips off you" because you're ignoring my math and posting incorrect math of your own (if you have actual good math to disprove some or all of my point I will happily listen).

 

Also, you *NEVER* agreed with my point of view, let alone twice.

 

"For low to mid cunning promoted players those are very good passives. Even more so, after this update as Relentless Attack/Unforgiving Chain having it's effect doubled. No skill point wasted here on low-mid promoted players."

 

That completely DISAGREES with my point.

 

"I can see low-mid promoted players profit from Rel. Atk. quite decently. Especially on Reaver/Avvar."

 

That completely DISAGREES with my point.

 

Kindly point to a single spot where you agreed with my point that "The Crit Chain talents are still terrible at 2% per attack, even for people with zero promotions."

 

Also, I seem to be the only person to answer your post seriously, which you don't think I do. That's why I leave your post and future postings alone.

 

Frankly, at this point I'd prefer that because your posts are resulting in me having to correct your misinformation/misunderstandings.

 

If you had come in and asked me to explain part of the math I'd have no issue with you.  If you had come in and indicated a section of my math that you thought was wrong with calculations of your own to back it up I'd have no issue with you (even if I was correct in the end).  If you had come in with calculations done on your own or code on your own which gave a different result than mine and asked me to try to figure out why our results were different I'd have no issue with you.

 

But coming in, ignoring my math/data/code, ignoring my overall point, and just talking about how you "feel" they're good talents without actual reasoning to back it up?  That doesn't help anyone.


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#11
Cirvante

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Interesting.

 

Out of curiosity, how much would the passive have to be buffed to make it actually useful?



#12
Samahl na Revas

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5% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 6.32% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 9.45% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 15.58% crit from talent

 

You don't want to give a new player a higher crit increase vs seasoned players. Yes, I read that: " given Rogues get Cunning from quite a few of their skills in the first place it's basically impossible for them to really even be at 5% crit" comment.

 

However, if I were to get a better crit increase the closer I am to 5% crit, you don't think I would purposely screw my rogue out of cunning points just for the bonus? Your probably wondering how? I would stick to the stalker tree which is more dexterity than anything on purpose. I would even put points on more than 4 skills. I read this several times and still came to the logical conclusion that I would screw my rogues/assassin over to get a better bonus. =]  Unfortunately, I'm not going to run the code through a compiler to reach the conclusion I already know.


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#13
LackLuster

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Just yes well put, said, done.... Just Yes

#14
bug_age_inquisition

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OP claims to understand mathematics, then fails to understand statistics and probability 

 

Small percent changes are still effective, especially the more you replicate them, in which case Dragon Age replicates them probably thousands of times in a match.

 

"Guys, 1% is so small, wat da he11!"



#15
Ternega

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OP claims to understand mathematics, then fails to understand statistics and probability 

 

Small percent changes are still effective, especially the more you replicate them, in which case Dragon Age replicates them probably thousands of times in a match.

 

"Guys, 1% is so small, wat da he11!"

No, no you didn't get it - he is not saying that 1% is irrelevant, but that in gameplay terms even stat passives outmath it with ease.



#16
bug_age_inquisition

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Oh yeah, I get it. Just grab some cunning instead right?

 

I heard something similar about Turn the Bolt on warriors.



#17
htisscrimbliv

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U know what else is useless? Proving the unusefulness of a unuseful skill that everyone already knew was useless. Excluding the silly guy above lol
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#18
MagicalMaster

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Interesting.

 

Out of curiosity, how much would the passive have to be buffed to make it actually useful?

 

I mean, depends on A, the crit chance you assume the player has and B, what you define useful to be.

 

Mathematically speaking, if someone has 90% crit chance to start then even making it give 100% crit per hit would only be a net gain of 5% (because you'll barely ever hit in the first place).  But that would be insanely powerful for a person with 5% crit (47.5%ish increase).

 

The numbers I listed actually seem to indicate that making it 10% per attack might actually be reasonable.  It'd be a little over 15% for an absolutely new player but it'd shrink down to 8-12% pretty fast (less than 8% at 30% initial crit, in fact).  Budget wise, Bioware considers 1 primary stat to be equal to 1% crit...so for it to equal the passive 9 stats it'd have to be worth at least 9% crit overall.

 

Which even 10% per attack fails to do pretty quickly (before 30% crit).  So long term the talent still has massive issues even completely ignoring promotions.

 

Personally I'd rather see the talent redesigned slightly, something like each attack adds 1.5% crit chance for 20 seconds stacking up to 10 times or something.  So 15% crit overall but has to build up in the first place and starts dropping if you stop hitting things constantly (so really less).  Makes it completely useful up to 85% passive crit (though obviously crit already has diminishing returns in a sense).

 

U know what else is useless? Proving the unusefulness of a unuseful skill that everyone already knew was useless. Excluding the silly guy above lol

 

You do realize that Bioware tried to buff it a day or two ago, right?  They raised it from 1% to 2%.  That's the only reason I made this post, because they expressed an interest in trying to fix it.  Problem is that it's still useless.

 

OP claims to understand mathematics, then fails to understand statistics and probability 

 

Small percent changes are still effective, especially the more you replicate them, in which case Dragon Age replicates them probably thousands of times in a match.

 

"Guys, 1% is so small, wat da he11!"

 

Yeah...like Ternega said, you don't get it.  It's not the question of "Does the talent matter at all?" but rather "Is it ever worth taking this talent over another talent?"

 

If you're told you can pick four of six rewards and the rewards are $1000, $1000, $1000, $1000, $1000, $200...that last reward is terrible *in relation to the others.*  Yeah, I wouldn't turn down $200 if someone just gave it to me but that's not the situation.  It's a *choice* between multiple options.

 

Oh yeah, I get it. Just grab some cunning instead right?

 

I heard something similar about Turn the Bolt on warriors.

 

He didn't say promotions, he said *passives.*  Like, the talent that does nothing but give you 9 stat points and I'm not sure anyone picks it on any character, ever.  The crit change talents are *worse* than the passive stat talents.

 

 

5% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 6.32% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 9.45% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 15.58% crit from talent

 

You don't want to give a new player a higher crit increase vs seasoned players. Yes, I read that: " given Rogues get Cunning from quite a few of their skills in the first place it's basically impossible for them to really even be at 5% crit" comment.

 

However, if I were to get a better crit increase the closer I am to 5% crit, you don't think I would purposely screw my rogue out of cunning points just for the bonus? Your probably wondering how? I would stick to the stalker tree which is more dexterity than anything on purpose. I would even put points on more than 4 skills. I read this several times and still came to the logical conclusion that I would screw my rogues/assassin over to get a better bonus. =]  Unfortunately, I'm not going to run the code through a compiler to reach the conclusion I already know.

 

You...are missing something here.  Really badly.  The talent is *already* better for people with a lower crit chance.  People with a high crit chance crit more often so the bonus builds up less than it would for people with low crit chance.  That is blindingly logical and easy to figure out without a compiler at all, so the fact you don't seem to realize that is...scary.

 

The questions are how *much* better is it for people at different levels of crit and how good is it in general?



#19
Cirvante

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The numbers I listed actually seem to indicate that making it 10% per attack might actually be reasonable.  It'd be a little over 15% for an absolutely new player but it'd shrink down to 8-12% pretty fast (less than 8% at 30% initial crit, in fact).  Budget wise, Bioware considers 1 primary stat to be equal to 1% crit...so for it to equal the passive 9 stats it'd have to be worth at least 9% crit overall.
 
Which even 10% per attack fails to do pretty quickly (before 30% crit).  So long term the talent still has massive issues even completely ignoring promotions.
 
Personally I'd rather see the talent redesigned slightly, something like each attack adds 1.5% crit chance for 20 seconds stacking up to 10 times or something.  So 15% crit overall but has to build up in the first place and starts dropping if you stop hitting things constantly (so really less).  Makes it completely useful up to 85% passive crit (though obviously crit already has diminishing returns in a sense).


10% was actually my first guess of what would be useful. I have 136 cunning and all of my rogues have over 80% crit chance, so it wouldn't really do much for me. For a new player with 5% crit however it would make quite a difference.

Regarding your idea to rework the ability to give a stacking crit bonus for 20s, you will have to take into account that multi hit abilities (like elemental mines) would synergize with the passive much more than auto attacks. I don't really remember who has the passive though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

#20
MagicalMaster

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10% was actually my first guess of what would be useful. I have 136 cunning and all of my rogues have over 80% crit chance, so it wouldn't really do much for me. For a new player with 5% crit however it would make quite a difference.

 

Yeah, it'd still be useless high end.

 

Regarding your idea to rework the ability to give a stacking crit bonus for 20s, you will have to take into account that multi hit abilities (like elemental mines) would synergize with the passive much more than auto attacks. I don't really remember who has the passive though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Hence the limit of stacks to 10.  Or if you mean it in terms of how quickly one character can build it versus another (to the point of some characters not being able to sustain the full stack in long fights) then you could adjust it to 6 stacks of 2.5%, 5 stacks of 3%, or something.

 

Idea was to make it something that every character could get to max stacks reasonably quickly in prolonged combat...but wouldn't do much good when just picking off 1-2 weaker enemies or something or at the start of a fight in general.  The name (and general idea) of both abilities seem to be designed to give a bonus in the serious fights where you're hitting a lot of stuff constantly...hence the "relentless" and "chain" parts, aye?

 

Hell, could potentially even bump the total bonus up to like 20% frankly -- it won't help the Alchemist on initial mine laying, the Assassin on Hidden Blading a priority target at the start of the fight, etc.  Have to hit stuff repeatedly to get the stack and then keep hitting stuff constantly to maintain it.


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#21
Samahl na Revas

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You...are missing something here.  Really badly.  The talent is *already* better for people with a lower crit chance.  People with a high crit chance crit more often so the bonus builds up less than it would for people with low crit chance.  That is blindingly logical and easy to figure out without a compiler at all, so the fact you don't seem to realize that is...scary.

 

The questions are how *much* better is it for people at different levels of crit and how good is it in general?

5% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 6.32% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 9.45% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 2% crit increase: 3.76% crit from talent

15% starting crit, 4% crit increase: 6.27% crit from talent

5% starting crit, 10% crit increase: 15.58% crit from talent

 

No, I'm not missing anything.

 

From a 5% starting crit chance and a 2% crit increase the bonus is 6.32% then it drops to about half once I reach a starting 15% crit chance. It's obvious that the lower the starting crit chance the better the bonus is how it always functioned. However, when crit is increased by 10% the bonus of 6.32% vs 15.58% is huge. Had this change been implemented and I not already worked hard to get a better crit chance I would of mathematically found the sweet spot to capitalize on this change and stop promoting my rogues. I would look at the Reaver and try to figure out what is a sweet spot in cunning that benifit both her and my rogues, that is what you are not understanding. Separate from cheating, good players exploit any advantage they can within a game, 15.58 is a huge bonus. In 4 attacks with a 10% increase I should crit because I've already exceeded the 50% crit chance threashold, add animation cancel to the pile and I  crit very often. While, I do not participate in theorycrafting in MMO, I do appreciate the work that people with that kind of dedication put into their work for other players, then I abuse that knowledge. :mellow:

 

2% maybe is terrible, but it's a passive and not a skill.



#22
konfeta

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2% maybe is terrible, but it's a passive and not a skill.

So is Pincushion and Cull the Herd.

 

"Passive" shouldn't mean garbage.



#23
BiggyDX

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I guess one alternative would be for it to guarantee a critical hit on you next attack every X seconds. I'm just throwing stuff out there man.



#24
Samahl na Revas

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So is Pincushion and Cull the Herd.

 

"Passive" shouldn't mean garbage.

You are right. Instead of 10% which seems to be OP's goal why not 50%? or 100% in all fairness? It's optional, while it is almost a freebie for classes that have it centered in the skill tree it is not that important of a passive say vs a stamina gain passive or damage resistant. These number were compared to one another for a reason. 100% should of been a fair comparison in all fairness :P  :rolleyes: .



#25
Sothalor

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Look, I think one of the key issues that the crit chain passives suffer from is that they were probably designed in context for the Single Player, where you don't have the option of (potentially) continuously incrementing your Cunning to get higher and higher base crit% chances.

 

(Also, leaving aside the fact that its numbers are just hilariously small.)

 

(Also, leaving aside the fact that it resets on any crit and thus provides negative synergy with pretty much the rest of all character building paradigms.)

 

(Also, leaving aside- you know what, **** it, this passive is terrible, end of story.)

 

 

 

Frankly, this thing needs a fundamental redesign. May I suggest that instead of building it around Crit Chance, it gets redesigned around Crit Damage? Here are some of my issues with it being Crit Chance oriented:

1) Most of the classes that have access to this passive (or are required to take it) have other means of boosting Crit Chance through other passives like guaranteed crit from stealth, guaranteed crit on fear, and double chance on flank. It ends up being a redundant passive completely overshadowed by the others.

2) It scales negatively with character levels, gear, and promotions. The more you play the game, the worse this (already underwhelming) passive gets. That doesn't make any sense.

 

How about building it around Crit Damage instead? For example, right off the top of my head:

- Every critical hit that you inflict increases your crit damage by 20%, up to a 100% crit damage bonus. Upon inflicting a critical hit at the maximum bonus, it gets reset and you build up the crit damage bonus again.

 

That should provide additional synergy for those classes with other crit chance passives, and remain useful as you rack up more rogue promotions.