218 réponses à ce sujet

[GruntKitterhand]

 

I will say this lastly, this is what I get sick of man, the people who come at this thread and fail to offer any tangible reasons for dislike of any PvP other than wild generalizations about the downfall of co-op b/c of all the "PvP assholes", or how the BSN community will become more toxic (like it's not fu*ked up as it is with trolls and alts), or how suddenly people want to become "experts" on resource/tech mgmt and now have the ability to guide entire dev studios and publishers with said knowledge as to how to best  guide the product that is the core livelihood for so many at that company!

 

You say that like you think people automatically should want PvP, without explaining why, beyond your earlier post about high level players wanting some additional mode to facilitate their egos, or something along those lines. Otherwise, is it simply the case that because PvP exists in other games you think we should have it too?  I'm not alone in thinking that PvP doesn't fit thematically in the Mass Effect universe, and will only ever end up in it because some financial 'genius' has worked out how to make money from it.  

 

I did give a tangible reason for not wanting PvP, which I'll repeat: I've never wanted to shoot anyone in the face, so by extension I have no desire to shoot someone's virtual avatar in the face.  I was called 'Gandhi' because of that, which gave me a chuckle as I'd say I'm handier with a Claymore. My peace-loving, tree-hugging, porn-watching, dope-smoking, why-can't-we-all-just-get-along? side doesn't extend to AI - all of which I laughingly regard as some kind of infant Skynet which must be destroyed at all costs. I like teaming up with other humans more than I like fighting them, and have concerns that PvP gaming is the stupidest conceptual development of recent times.  It surely has more potential to cause real life psychological problems than co-op, where 'fite me irl' remains just a joke. I wouldn't stoop to referring to 'PvP-assholes', but I have enough misgivings about the mindset required to play it to know that I am unlikely to ever take part in anything other than a non-violent scenario. Chess, perhaps! 

 

As for game-development in general, we're in uncharted territory (no pun intended, Naughty Dog) - there are no fixed rules at this stage of our online infancy. Anyone who lived through the 'Mass Effect 3 Ending(s) Reaction' knows that the line between dog and tail has been blurred significantly. Andromeda will very definitely be viewed in the context of whether it gives fans what they want (whether that's a good thing or not is not the point) so it seems appropriate for these opinions to be given freely on a Bioware forum. If INVADERONE's latest video is accurate, it seems like they might be listening after all.

[GruntKitterhand]

My only wish is that Headshots get counted as an individual statistic so I can see exactly how many I have.  In ME3 there's just no way to know!

 

I usually know I've scored somewhere between none and five, and on a good day somewhere between 5 and 10! 

[SilentStep79]

You say that like you think people automatically should want PvP, without explaining why, beyond your earlier post about high level players wanting some additional mode to facilitate their egos, or something along those lines. Otherwise, is it simply the case that because PvP exists in other games you think we should have it too?  I'm not alone in thinking that PvP doesn't fit thematically in the Mass Effect universe, and will only ever end up in it because some financial 'genius' has worked out how to make money from it.  

 

I did give a tangible reason for not wanting PvP, which I'll repeat: I've never wanted to shoot anyone in the face, so by extension I have no desire to shoot someone's virtual avatar in the face.  I was called 'Gandhi' because of that, which gave me a chuckle as I'd say I'm handier with a Claymore. My peace-loving, tree-hugging, porn-watching, dope-smoking, why-can't-we-all-just-get-along? side doesn't extend to AI - all of which I laughingly regard as some kind of infant Skynet which must be destroyed at all costs. I like teaming up with other humans more than I like fighting them, and have concerns that PvP gaming is the stupidest conceptual development of recent times.  It surely has more potential to cause real life psychological problems than co-op, where 'fite me irl' remains just a joke. I wouldn't stoop to referring to 'PvP-assholes', but I have enough misgivings about the mindset required to play it to know that I am unlikely to ever take part in anything other than a non-violent scenario. Chess, perhaps! 

 

As for game-development in general, we're in uncharted territory (no pun intended, Naughty Dog) - there are no fixed rules at this stage of our online infancy. Anyone who lived through the 'Mass Effect 3 Ending(s) Reaction' knows that the line between dog and tail has been blurred significantly. Andromeda will very definitely be viewed in the context of whether it gives fans what they want (whether that's a good thing or not is not the point) so it seems appropriate for these opinions to be given freely on a Bioware forum. If INVADERONE's latest video is accurate, it seems like they might be listening after all.

 

Ok...

 

First, it's a fun mode Grunt. Please don't mistake you obvious lack of attempting it in other titles because of a professed 'personal moral high ground' as ME not giving any further justification. If you too the time to read my initial post, I did not state that only high SKILL players could gain enjoyment but also people that, because of the wild success of co-op will already come into the ME:A co-op with a wealth of experience under their belts and be looking for another challenge. A suggestion for that 'challenge' would be....wait for it....PVP! Or...(and I know this is going to hurt your co-op sensibilities) even just other people from PvP titles that want to give ME:A a try in very much the same way Destiny PvP worked...good for BioWare, but possibly bad for you Grunt...and I am sorry

 

All I said was that it'd be nice if people had another CHOICE in terms of a game mode in MEMP. That's ALL! I NEVER forced PvP down anyone's throats like you seem to want to force the desire for it's ABSENCE down mine!

 

And dude I'm sorry, but you're 'tangible reason' for not wanting PvP paragraph is about the most subjective, insulting generalization and indictment of everyone that enjoys PvP that I've read to date in this thread. And in my humble opinion, every bit as toxic as the people you're so afraid will pollute your precious co-op experience.

 

So I stand insulted.

 

And yeah, I caught INVADER's link about the no PvP. It was indeed a longshot, even longer given posters like you here to make sure of that result.

[SilentStep79]

I do find the PVP hate rather amusing. Personally I would like to have had PVP included, provide that it didnt take anything away from the co-op experience. Having the option of additional game types should only add to the experience (as long as the co-op and PVP was kept separate). Yes the balancing could be tricky but it would be possible. I wouldnt be so quick to discount PVP, afterall ME3MP faced the same resistance at first and look how this turned out. I doubt many on here saw the MP as anything other than a tacked on extension that would see very little attention by most players but the MP ended up being ME3 saving grace

 

Thanks bouli, and in the end that was ALL I was trying to say! 

 

Other than responding directly to everyone that seemed to have some problem with that seemingly innocent opinion....some for 'reasonable' reasons (ie:balance, etc) and others, because I took time to voice an unpopular vote in favor of PvP that was a bit more articulate than 'GIT GUD SCRUB'

 

sigh, whatevs

[Jay P]

I don't understand you guys really. if there will be a pvp, nobody forces any of you to play it. you can still play co-op. Also i do not agree in a PvP mode everything has to be nerfed for the sake of balance. One way of balancing is to make sure everything is OP. If everything is OP thats already a good start for balance.

I see Me3 PvP as a possible fun based game, not some serious game like CS:GO or any other game made for E-Sports. Strictly designed for players to have fun and laughs. Somebody asked earlier, my answer is yes, i can pretty much imagine somebody lifting me in a game with biotics. I would laugh my ass off, and my other squadmates on teamspeak would laugh their ass off too and troll me as hard as they could.

We could do objective based assault type gameplay. For example salarian team infiltrating krogan breeding facility on virmire. One team plays as salarians, other team plays as Krogan/Geth or in the map ending objective somebody would play as Saren. Or infiltrating Rannoch. One team playing any human/turian/asari or any other alliance character other team playing as Geth Primes, Rocket Troopers, Hunters or whatever. Or assaulting the Collector Base (suicide mission). One team plays as collectors and can possess Scions, can play as Harbinger or as various collector troopers (guardian, assasin, drone). Or council forces vs cerberus or reapers. the variations are limitless.

Or a simple 4v4 team deathmatch game (could be round based). Why should powers get a nerf when you can have the same powers for both sides? whats there to balance? this is nuts. who uses the available skillset better wins the round. that simple.

I really think most of you is creating non existing problems.

Because you have to balance pve around pvp.

Because it's not ok to just let one class be outrageously overpowered compared to the other classes.

Exponentially more so if the class is unlocked via RNG.

you wouldn't be ok with RNG (despite 100s of hours of play) trolling you and not letting you have the OP class or weapon, if it meant that you just got wrecked in pvp because you couldn't get a lucky roll.

Pvp balancing takes a massive amount of resources; resources that could be used to improve co-op and SP or just flat out add new content (story missions, new MP characters and weapons, new MP maps, etc).

Don't half-ass it. Leave the pvp to FPS.

Edit: you're suggestion to just make everything OP sounds good, but isn't practical.

What type of TTK are you expecting? Make everything OP means buffing weapons/classes that aren't performing as well; which will further shorten TTK.

All pvp is a cycle. Making everything OP just shortens the cycle, exacerbates the problems, and leads to game with silly short TTK.

[Cyonan]

I do find the PVP hate rather amusing. Personally I would like to have had PVP included, provide that it didnt take anything away from the co-op experience. Having the option of additional game types should only add to the experience (as long as the co-op and PVP was kept separate). Yes the balancing could be tricky but it would be possible. I wouldnt be so quick to discount PVP, afterall ME3MP faced the same resistance at first and look how this turned out. I doubt many on here saw the MP as anything other than a tacked on extension that would see very little attention by most players but the MP ended up being ME3 saving grace

 

The problem has never been that it wouldn't be possible to balance for PvP, it's that we would have to give up too much of what makes this game Mass Effect in order to bring the balance to a respectable level for PvP.

 

People complain about the Geth? Our CC is much worse, and our damage output much higher.

[._.]

I've never wanted to shoot someone in the face irl so why would i want to in game is probably the worst argument against any topic I've ever heard, no offense.
I would rather have people get in my face and challenge me in a pvp mode than passive agressive backhanded compliments from "competitive coop" players.

[Caineghis2500]

 I'm not alone in thinking that PvP doesn't fit thematically in the Mass Effect universe

 

 

I did give a tangible reason for not wanting PvP, which I'll repeat: I've never wanted to shoot anyone in the face, so by extension I have no desire to shoot someone's virtual avatar in the face. 

No your'e not the only one that thinks that way but your'e the only one here that has dared to openly paint the pvp community is such a deplorable and detestable light. The extreme biased you have with co-op has severely clouded your judgment with regards to pvp and this has got to be the worst and most unfair depiction of the pvp community I've seen to date tbh. Competition is a part of our human nature. It's in our DNA and in our evolution. It's a part of who we are.  Some are more in tuned with that side than others is all and it manifests itself on different levels but never to the point of me wanting to actually hurt someone much less kill them in real life. wtf?!? . Good strong bonds and friendships are formed amongst those in the pvp community just as much and healthy as any co-op community. I genuinely enjoy the pvp experience for what it truly is without the ridiculous side effects that you mentioned. Hard to believe huh?   

 

I hope you understand that it's nothing personal. I'm simply responding to your depiction of pvp which was very ignorant. 

[Teh_Ocelot]

The problem has never been that it wouldn't be possible to balance for PvP, it's that we would have to give up too much of what makes this game Mass Effect in order to bring the balance to a respectable level for PvP.

 

People complain about the Geth? Our CC is much worse, and our damage output much higher.

 

Completely agree. Also, Snoop approves.

[GruntKitterhand]

Ok...

 

You seem upset. 

 

I've never wanted to shoot someone in the face irl so why would i want to in game is probably the worst argument against any topic I've ever heard, no offense.

 

None taken.  We're on the internet.  I would say invading Iraq and using the excuse that Saddam had WMDs was probably, in the grand scheme of things, a much worse argument. 

 

I hope you understand that I don't have a personal problem with you. I'm simply responding to your depiction of pvp which was very ignorant. 

 

Cain, I have nothing but respect for you dude, and I have no problem with your views either, but they are completely incompatible with mine, and based on a fundamental belief in innate human competitiveness which does not exist in all humans.  You live in a country where competition is as natural as breathing. I don't.  There's a Gang of Four song which contains the lyric, "It was my ambition to have ambition." - I wouldn't even go that far. I couldn't give a flying ****. My views on PvP may be relatively ignorant, in the true sense of the word, but they are not in any way intended to be rude or cause personal offence.

 

I am slightly stung by things being read into my post which aren't there.  Read what I was replying to and then read my response again and accept that the use of the word 'stupid' was not directed at players themselves. I have absolutely no problem with people who like to play PvP.  None. OK? Good.  I also didn't say I didn't want it in ME:A - I simply said I wouldn't be playing it - how in the name of fuckery is that ramming my views down other people's throats? Jesus Christ! I do have personal issues regarding whether PvP Shooters are a good thing for humanity in general, amusing though that might be for some.  But then my views are very probably coloured by growing up in a real life war zone. I speak for myself, with my own opinions, but have no desire to live in a world where those opinons have a direct effect on anyone else in a negative sense.  If some of you had your hopes pinned on PvP I will actually be disappointed for you if it doesn't materialize, not laughing.

 

Some of you might know the saying, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." That is pretty much my philosophy.  I extend it to others, and request nothing but the same courtesy in return.

[NuclearTech76]

 

I did give a tangible reason for not wanting PvP, which I'll repeat: I've never wanted to shoot anyone in the face, so by extension I have no desire to shoot someone's virtual avatar in the face.  

That doesn't really make a lot of sense though. I play PvP, hell I play paintball in RL. That doesn't mean I want to engage in real violence though.

 

1v1 me Gandhi!!! will likely be bellowed in a drunken stupor though now. 

[NuclearTech76]

You seem upset. 

 

 

None taken.  We're on the internet.  I would say invading Iraq and using the excuse that Saddam had WMDs was probably, in the grand scheme of things, a much worse argument. 

 

 

Cain, I have nothing but respect for you dude, and I have no problem with your views either, but they are completely incompatible with mine, and based on a fundamental belief in innate human competitiveness which does not exist in all humans.  You live in a country where competition is as natural as breathing. I don't.  There's a Gang of Four song which contains the lyric, "It was my ambition to have ambition." - I wouldn't even go that far. I couldn't give a flying ****. My views on PvP may be relatively ignorant, in the true sense of the word, but they are not in any way intended to be rude or cause personal offence.

 

I am slightly stung by things being read into my post which aren't there.  Read what I was replying to and then read my response again and accept that the use of the word 'stupid' was not directed at players themselves. I have absolutely no problem with people who like to play PvP.  None. OK? Good.  I also didn't say I didn't want it in ME:A - I simply said I wouldn't be playing it - how in the name of fuckery is that ramming my views down other people's throats? Jesus Christ! I do have personal issues regarding whether PvP Shooters are a good thing for humanity in general, amusing though that might be for some.  But then my views are very probably coloured by growing up in a real life war zone. I speak for myself, with my own opinions, but have no desire to live in a world where those opinons have a direct effect on anyone else in a negative sense.  If some of you had your hopes pinned on PvP I will actually be disappointed for you if it doesn't materialize, not laughing.

 

Some of you might know the saying, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." That is pretty much my philosophy.  I extend it to others, and request nothing but the same courtesy in return.

I mean maybe competition in everything isn't there for everyone but competitive spirit is part of human evolution. Hell I'm competitive at finding a damn parking space at the grocery store. 

[GruntKitterhand]

I mean maybe competition in everything isn't there for everyone but competitive spirit is part of human evolution. Hell I'm competitive at finding a damn parking space at the grocery store. 

 

I ride a Triumph - no such worries 

 

I'd wear "1v1 me Gandhi!" on a t-shirt though, so thanks for that image in my mind 

[MrStoob]

Didn't Destiny have this issue with PVP (as a comparable platform)?  They basically nerfed everything into blanddom.

[Salarian Master Race]

I do find the PVP hate rather amusing. Personally I would like to have had PVP included, provide that it didnt take anything away from the co-op experience. Having the option of additional game types should only add to the experience (as long as the co-op and PVP was kept separate). Yes the balancing could be tricky but it would be possible. I wouldnt be so quick to discount PVP, afterall ME3MP faced the same resistance at first and look how this turned out. I doubt many on here saw the MP as anything other than a tacked on extension that would see very little attention by most players but the MP ended up being ME3 saving grace

 

Pretty much this.  Having more game modes won't hurt anyone or anything, in fact it would draw more of a playerbase.  If you don't like a certain mode, don't play it.

 

That said, there are plenty of other PvP games out there.

 

So end of the day I couldn't care less whether or not ME:A has PvP.  It really makes no difference to me.

[NuclearTech76]

Didn't Destiny have this issue with PVP (as a comparable platform)?  They basically nerfed everything into blanddom.

Destiny doesn't have dedicated servers. You'll have some mofos that lag switch and are impossible to kill. Basically PvP is pretty fun in the regular crucible when the events come up you run into more shitty connections and exploiters. It sucks the fun out of PvP events IMO. Some stuff is so ****** ridiculous when you get it down like blink shotgunning that it's really all you see in crucible. It's too cookie cutter IMO for a PvP game.  

[Terminator Force]

 

Pretty much this.  Having more game modes won't hurt anyone or anything, in fact it would draw more of a playerbase.  If you don't like a certain mode, don't play it.

 

That said, there are plenty of other PvP games out there.

 

So end of the day I couldn't care less whether or not ME:A has PvP.  It really makes no difference to me.

 

 

^ Sure, having more game modes is nice. But I don't think BioWare can handle the extra workload, not to mention extra bug testing & game balancing workload.

 

So if anything, it should come out as a DLC only.

[NuclearTech76]

 

 

 

 

^ Sure, having more game modes is nice. But I don't think BioWare can handle the extra workload, not to mention extra bug testing & game balancing workload.

 

So if anything, it should come out as a DLC only.

 

Popcap managed it. Cooperative hoard mode and a whole ton of PvP options. Game plays relatively smoothly as well. 

[Terminator Force]

Popcap managed it. Cooperative hoard mode and a whole ton of PvP options. Game plays relatively smoothly as well. 

 

Wait, you meant the did it as a DLC later and that's why it worked? At least that's why I have he like. But now I'm not sure if that's what you meant. 

 

Either way, BioWare is not Popcap. So I don't think they can handle it unless the workload if split via a later DLC. Besides, isn't this how the new EA BIoware handles things these days? Release an incomplete game or ending and try to complete via DLC later?

[SilentStep79]

You seem upset. 

 

 

And you implied that myself and alot of other people have latent "homicidal tendencies" because we enjoy PVP! 

 

Didn't read anything into that, sorry pal. I will say that, the action in this thread feels reminiscent of the BSN "glory days" when the banter was this heated, etc. Mission accomplished, INVADER, it's been fun! 

 

*washes hands*

[NuclearTech76]

Wait, you meant the did it as a DLC later and that's why it worked? At least that's why I have he like. But now I'm not sure if that's what you meant. 

 

Either way, BioWare is not Popcap. So I don't think they can handle it unless the workload if split via a later DLC. Besides, isn't this how the new EA BIoware handles things these days? Release an incomplete game or ending and try to complete via DLC later?

Garden Warfare is a EA game though, produced by Popcap. I would think if Mass Effect were to go that way, weapons options would be more limited. IE each class has a default weapon and a couple of different power evolutions. This is why I said if Mass Effect were to add on a PvP game mode I would go with something completely different from coop mode like the mass effect animals fighting each other. I know it sound ridiculous but I would pay good money to play as a thresher maw and eat an uzi wielding pyjak.  

 

Balance is a little easier when you don't have 60 plus weapons and 60 plus characters with a wide variety of power evolutions. Thus why I would do a completely different simplistic, game mode as PvP. And I know in the world of super duper Epeen swinging graphics that's blasphemy but a game doesn't have to be awesome graphically look at minecraft. Make the game fun first and foremost.  

[Terminator Force]

^ Well said.

[Deerber]

Garden Warfare is a EA game though, produced by Popcap. I would think if Mass Effect were to go that way, weapons options would be more limited. IE each class has a default weapon and a couple of different power evolutions. This is why I said if Mass Effect were to add on a PvP game mode I would go with something completely different from coop mode like the mass effect animals fighting each other. I know it sound ridiculous but I would pay good money to play as a thresher maw and eat an uzi wielding pyjak.

Balance is a little easier when you don't have 60 plus weapons and 60 plus characters with a wide variety of power evolutions. Thus why I would do a completely different simplistic, game mode as PvP. And I know in the world of super duper Epeen swinging graphics that's blasphemy but a game doesn't have to be awesome graphically look at minecraft. Make the game fun first and foremost.

1v1 me varren vs thresher maw

[ALTBOULI]

The problem has never been that it wouldn't be possible to balance for PvP, it's that we would have to give up too much of what makes this game Mass Effect in order to bring the balance to a respectable level for PvP.
 
People complain about the Geth? Our CC is much worse, and our damage output much higher.

Please explain, I dont see what we would have to give up? Again I'm talking about PVP as a seperate game type isolated from the co-op.

[Teh_Ocelot]

Please explain, I dont see what we would have to give up? Again I'm talking about PVP as a seperate game type isolated from the co-op.

Stasis. Vanguard charge i-frames. The Juggernaut's eleventy-thousand HP. Or force choke. Arc Grenade's stun. Cryo Blast/freezes in general. Stagger guns. Effing Tac Cloak. Even bio/techsplosions. 

 

I'm sure they're a ton more that I haven't even thought of, but none of those things are balanced PvP, so, not to put words in their mouths, but I think what Cyonan and others are saying is, they'd either have to gimp those powers to the point they aren't recognizable, or they'd have to remove them, in which case you're no longer playing ME3, you're playing something similar but not the same. The damages these powers/guns/explosions do are based on enemy health, which is a **** ton higher than player health.

 

While it might be possible to nerf all these abilities enough to make it viable in PvP, in my opinion it would be way too much of a time/money investment to try to do that AND keep the same level of innovation/enjoyment/DLC in the PvE portion of the game.

 

Again, imho, Mass Effect already holds a unique niche with this game, there's no reason to try to create a amalgamation of PvE and PvP.