218 réponses à ce sujet

[TMB903]

The problem has never been that it wouldn't be possible to balance for PvP, it's that we would have to give up too much of what makes this game Mass Effect in order to bring the balance to a respectable level for PvP.

People complain about the Geth? Our CC is much worse, and our damage output much higher.

.This sums up my thoughts perfectly. I don't associate ME with PVP nor do I really desire it but I can see why players would want the option at least.

[ALTBOULI]

Stasis. Vanguard charge i-frames. The Juggernaut's eleventy-thousand HP. Or force choke. Arc Grenade's stun. Cryo Blast/freezes in general. Stagger guns. Effing Tac Cloak. Even bio/techsplosions. 
 
I'm sure they're a ton more that I haven't even thought of, but none of those things are balanced PvP, so, not to put words in their mouths, but I think what Cyonan and others are saying is, they'd either have to gimp those powers to the point they aren't recognizable, or they'd have to remove them, in which case you're no longer playing ME3, you're playing something similar but not the same. The damages these powers/guns/explosions do are based on enemy health, which is a **** ton higher than player health.
 
While it might be possible to nerf all these abilities enough to make it viable in PvP, in my opinion it would be way too much of a time/money investment to try to do that AND keep the same level of innovation/enjoyment/DLC in the PvE portion of the game.
 
Again, imho, Mass Effect already holds a unique niche with this game, there's no reason to try to create a amalgamation of PvE and PvP.

And when were these confirmed in Andromeda? The combat system has changed significantly between the first 3 games, who's to say we wont have significant changes to the combat system and game mechanics once again? Many of those things you mentioned can be addressed by extending the cooldowns, reducing the duration or making some powers active for a one-time hit after a certain amount of kills i.e. Singularity, grenade powers etc. Powers like pull, throw, lash etc could only work (ragdolling the player ) once tge enemy players shield is down the same thing could be applied to stasis and the various tech/ biotic explosions. Those are just some ideas but there are many options at Bioware's disposal

[Cyonan]

Please explain, I dont see what we would have to give up? Again I'm talking about PVP as a seperate game type isolated from the co-op.

 

A lot of things for the sake of balance, unless you want to take the route where an ability will do one thing in PvE and a completely different thing in PvP(which in my opinion is more time and effort than its worth for Mass Effect).

 

Biotic Charge for example? An ability that provides immunity frames, recharges shields, moves you across the entire map in an instant, and staggers the target?

 

Or Stasis, which is a CC that can be evolved to be AoE and ragdolls the target afterwards?

 

Or Singularity which is another AoE CC that causes ragdolls?

 

Or grenades which are almost all AoE stagger attacks that can be spammed with no cooldown?

 

All of that would need to be nerfed to the ground or completely revamped, unless you enjoy not being able to control your character for 90% of a match.

 

I love PvP games, but Mass Effect simply just isn't designed to be one.

[ALTBOULI]

A lot of things for the sake of balance, unless you want to take the route where an ability will do one thing in PvE and a completely different thing in PvP(which in my opinion is more time and effort than its worth for Mass Effect).
 
Biotic Charge for example? An ability that provides immunity frames, recharges shields, moves you across the entire map in an instant, and staggers the target?
 
Or Stasis, which is a CC that can be evolved to be AoE and ragdolls the target afterwards?
 
Or Singularity which is another AoE CC that causes ragdolls?
 
Or grenades which are almost all AoE stagger attacks that can be spammed with no cooldown?
 
All of that would need to be nerfed to the ground or completely revamped, unless you enjoy not being able to control your character for 90% of a match.
 
I love PvP games, but Mass Effect simply just isn't designed to be one.

I see your point with Biotic Charge, that ability would probably have to be taken out, see my post above for tge other powers you mentioned as i do feel there are work-arounds for them

[Cyonan]

Many of those things you mentioned can be addressed by extending the cooldowns, reducing the duration or making some powers active for a one-time hit after a certain amount of kills i.e. Singularity, grenade powers etc. Powers like pull, throw, lash etc could only work (ragdolling the player ) once tge enemy players shield is down the same thing could be applied to stasis and the various tech/ biotic explosions. Those are just some ideas but there are many options at Bioware's disposal

 

Diminishing Returns can work well but a one time immunity generally makes control kits useless because their powers can only hit the target once.

 

Altering the cooldowns and duration messes with certain setups as well. The N7 Fury with Throw on a 10+ second cooldown would be hilariously bad. Most Biotic and Tech "casters" in this game are designed to spam abilities while using their guns to augment their damage in between ability uses.

 

In general I'm not happy with the idea of the game being designed around the idea that PvP would be in it, and I don't see how PvP could work unless it was. PvP in games where they didn't design for it from the start tends to suck.

 

I see your point with Biotic Charge, that ability would probably have to be taken out, see my post above for tge other powers you mentioned as i do feel there are work-arounds for them

 

Biotic Charge is, in my opinion, non negotiable. It would be like Blizzard removing Divine Shield from Paladins in WoW.

 

The ability is simply too iconic of Vanguards at this point to not be in the game.

 

Nova would basically need to be nuked from orbit too or completely revamped(although arguably it should be for PvE anyway).

[Teh_Ocelot]

And when were these confirmed in Andromeda? The combat system has changed significantly between the first 3 games, who's to say we wont have significant changes to the combat system and game mechanics once again? Many of those things you mentioned can be addressed by extending the cooldowns, reducing the duration or making some powers active for a one-time hit after a certain amount of kills i.e. Singularity, grenade powers etc. Powers like pull, throw, lash etc could only work (ragdolling the player ) once tge enemy players shield is down the same thing could be applied to stasis and the various tech/ biotic explosions. Those are just some ideas but there are many options at Bioware's disposal

They weren't lol. But since I don't have a list of powers that are confirmed, all I can mention are the powers that existed previously, and since games have a tendency to build on themselves rather than make wholesale changes, it's a historically safe assumption we'll have similar power cascades in ME:A. 

 

Regardless, you're making my point for me. To make PvP viable, they'd have to introduce completely different power set functions for ME:A, which is what so many of us are saying. This game has a certain look and feel to it based on it's PvE nature, and while I'm certainly not arguing it couldn't be done and/or even fun in lieu of a PvE game, I'm saying it would have to be different to the point of being unrecognizable as Mass Effect

[ALTBOULI]

Diminishing Returns can work well but a one time immunity generally makes control kits useless because their powers can only hit the target once.

 

Altering the cooldowns and duration messes with certain setups as well. The N7 Fury with Throw on a 10+ second cooldown would be hilariously bad. Most Biotic and Tech "casters" in this game are designed to spam abilities while using their guns to augment their damage in between ability uses.

 

In general I'm not happy with the idea of the game being designed around the idea that PvP would be in it, and I don't see how PvP could work unless it was. PvP in games where they didn't design for it from the start tends to suck.

 

 

Biotic Charge is, in my opinion, non negotiable. It would be like Blizzard removing Divine Shield from Paladins in WoW.

 

The ability is simply too iconic of Vanguards at this point to not be in the game.

 

Nova would basically need to be nuked from orbit too or completely revamped(although arguably it should be for PvE anyway).

The key thing here again is the separation of co-op and PVP. Certain kits/powers just wouldn't work for the PVP but that does not mean they wouldn't be included in the co-op game modes. To address the Tech/Biotic combo's in PVP Bioware could go down the route of making the PVP tactical whereby tech/biotic combo's would need to be performed by more than one player. Bioware implemented something similar in DAMP with detonations effectively being dependent on cross class combo's. This would make the PVP a lot more tactical and it isnt something I would want but that's one approach. 

 

Making certain kits/powers only available in co-op like Biotic charge woudlnt necessarily take much from the pvp in my opinion. We already have a range of powers that could work very well in PVP such as tac-cloak, AR, Marksman, Tac-scan etc. I don't see these powers needing much balancing tbh

[Cyonan]

The key thing here again is the separation of co-op and PVP. Certain kits/powers just wouldn't work for the PVP but that does not mean they wouldn't be included in the co-op game modes. To address the Tech/Biotic combo's in PVP Bioware could go down the route of making the PVP tactical whereby tech/biotic combo's would need to be performed by more than one player. Bioware implemented something similar in DAMP with detonations effectively being dependent on cross class combo's. This would make the PVP a lot more tactical and it isnt something I would want but that's one approach. 

 

Making certain kits/powers only available in co-op like Biotic charge woudlnt necessarily take much from the pvp in my opinion. We already have a range of powers that could work very well in PVP such as tac-cloak, AR, Marksman, Tac-scan etc. I don't see these powers needing much balancing tbh

 

So you basically want BioWare to design two entirely different styles of ability combat? As I said before, I think that's far more effort than it is actually worth for Mass Effect. I'd rather get another co-op game mode, similar to something like Halo's spartan ops story based missions.

 

Based on Mass Effect 3, virtually all abilities that can increase weapon damage would need to be heavily toned down on top of the weapons themselves being toned down. Marksman would also need to not be capable of making any shotgun into a pin point sniper rifle.

 

Keep in mind that in ME3 a standard Human kit with 6 ranks fitness has about as much health + shields as a basic Gold Cerberus Trooper has total hit points. The numbers would need a lot of tweaking, and would need to be vastly different for both PvE and PvP since we're expected to be able to kill troopers in about 1 hit with a powerful single shot weapon like the Claymore or Javelin.

[Teh_Ocelot]

Making certain kits/powers only available in co-op like Biotic charge woudlnt necessarily take much from the pvp in my opinion. We already have a range of powers that could work very well in PVP such as tac-cloak, AR, Marksman, Tac-scan etc. I don't see these powers needing much balancing tbh

Seriously? I find it hard to believe you think it's balanced that I go invisible, walk right up to you, and burst +80% damage in a PvP setting.

[ALTBOULI]

They weren't lol. But since I don't have a list of powers that are confirmed, all I can mention are the powers that existed previously, and since games have a tendency to build on themselves rather than make wholesale changes, it's a historically safe assumption we'll have similar power cascades in ME:A. 

 

Regardless, you're making my point for me. To make PvP viable, they'd have to introduce completely different power set functions for ME:A, which is what so many of us are saying. This game has a certain look and feel to it based on it's PvE nature, and while I'm certainly not arguing it couldn't be done and/or even fun in lieu of a PvE game, I'm saying it would have to be different to the point of being unrecognizable as Mass Effect

And I would argue that a lot of the powers would only need slight tweaks to rebalance them for PVP, abilities like Marksman, Overload, reave, warp etc. Some abilities would require very little change if any like Tac-scan or Biotic bubble the main challenge would be to work around biotic/tech combo's. Lets not forget that we would be dealing with other players and provided that their not complete noobs they would be able to dodge a lot of abilities. How many times have you thrown Warp at a Marauder or Geth Bomber only for them to dodge it? Most powers require a degree of aiming to land so their not guaranteed hits.

[Teh_Ocelot]

And I would argue that a lot of the powers would only need slight tweaks to rebalance them for PVP, abilities like Marksman, Overload, reave, warp etc. Some abilities would require very little change if any like Tac-scan or Biotic bubble the main challenge would be to work around biotic/tech combo's. Lets not forget that we would be dealing with other players and provided that their not complete noobs they would be able to dodge a lot of abilities. How many times have you thrown Warp at a Marauder or Geth Bomber only for them to dodge it? Most powers require a degree of aiming to land so their not guaranteed hits.

And I'd argue some powers would only require slight tweaks, more would require moderate overhauls, and some would have to disappear entirely.

 

And that's not to say anything about the characters themselves, who also are vastly unbalanced, never mind the powers.

 

I understand what you're saying, and again, I'm not disagreeing it couldn't be done. I'm just saying to do it would make it no longer remotely the same game, and I am not for that kind of wholesale change, and certainly not for a game mode very, very few people are clamoring for.

[Deerber]

I see your point with Biotic Charge, that ability would probably have to be taken out

Thanks for providing me with an even more compelling reason to say FUCK PVP!

[ALTBOULI]

So you basically want BioWare to design two entirely different styles of ability combat? As I said before, I think that's far more effort than it is actually worth for Mass Effect. I'd rather get another co-op game mode, similar to something like Halo's spartan ops story based missions.

 

Based on Mass Effect 3, virtually all abilities that can increase weapon damage would need to be heavily toned down on top of the weapons themselves being toned down. Marksman would also need to not be capable of making any shotgun into a pin point sniper rifle.

 

Keep in mind that in ME3 a standard Human kit with 6 ranks fitness has about as much health + shields as a basic Gold Cerberus Trooper has total hit points. The numbers would need a lot of tweaking, and would need to be vastly different for both PvE and PvP since we're expected to be able to kill troopers in about 1 hit with a powerful single shot weapon like the Claymore or Javelin.

No as I said, I believe a lot of the powers could go straight into a PVP mode without any significant rebalancing needed but certain powers just wouldn't work and would therefore have to remain in the co-op only. I don't think a complete separation of the combat mechanics are necessary just tweaks and exclusions in some cases. Your point about damage and health would certainly need to be looked at and abilities like Marksman and Tac-cloak etc would need to have their damage modifiers reduced but that shouldn't be a complicated thing to do.

 

Seriously? I find it hard to believe you think it's balanced that I go invisible, walk right up to you, and burst +80% damage in a PvP setting.

Your not completely invisible, a player can detect you when you move around. Other games have incorporated cloak abilties with no issue for example Halo, Crysis etc. The damage modifier would need to be reduced and in most cases you would leave cloak after your first shot. I wouldnt call it op if a cloak + headshot = insta-kill against an enemy. I highly doubt most players would just let you walk up to them even if you are cloaked.

 

And I'd argue some powers would only require slight tweaks, more would require moderate overhauls, and some would have to disappear entirely.

 

And that's not to say anything about the characters themselves, who also are vastly unbalanced, never mind the powers.

 

I understand what you're saying, and again, I'm not disagreeing it couldn't be done. I'm just saying to do it would make it no longer remotely the same game, and I am not for that kind of wholesale change, and certainly not for a game mode very, very few people are clamoring for.

Again I think some of these points are focusing a little too much of character/weapon specifics in ME3, I expect Andromeda to be quite a bit different from ME3 just like ME3 was different to 2 and 1. I can very well see wholesale changes if the trailer is anything to go by. How do you know very few people want PVP? your making assumptions based on responses of a very small part of the community, who's to say adding PVP wouldn't significantly increase the player base by attracting PVP players?

 

The single player purists hated the idea of MP in Mass Effect (some still do judging by the Andromeda forums) but it attracted a great deal of players and kept them playing when they would normally stop after completing the campaign.

[Cyonan]

No as I said, I believe a lot of the powers could go straight into a PVP mode without any significant rebalancing needed but certain powers just wouldn't work and would therefore have to remain in the co-op only. I don't think a complete separation of the combat mechanics are necessary just tweaks and exclusions in some cases. Your point about damage and health would certainly need to be looked at and abilities like Marksman and Tac-cloak etc would need to have their damage modifiers reduced but that shouldn't be a complicated thing to do.

 

When I say different styles of abilities, I mean biotics and tech abilities in Mass Effect are intended to be more used rapidly with your gun augmenting your damage in between shots. This has been the case in every game, even with the longer cooldowns of Mass Effect 1 and the changing combat styles between games. Mass Effect 3 only sped things up a bit and made the overall style less about hiding behind chest high walls while your shields regenerate.

 

Unless you want to affect the PvE game and slow down your casting rate, you're going to need two different styles. The whole Vanguard style is meant to be very fast and in your face with biotics and shotguns. It simply would not work in PvP without a major overhaul of the entire class, especially since you're talking about the removal of their iconic ability.

 

Any ability meant to be used for CC would need to be looked at, which is a pretty considerable number of them in Mass Effect. I'll even leave grenades out of the equation for you since in all honesty, they need to be looked at for PvE too because they were hilariously broken in ME3 MP.

 

There's also the question of new abilities. Should the ME:A team avoid designing an ability just because it wouldn't play nice in PvP? If you make a new ability that's not in PvP or even leave out an existing one people are going to try to pressure them into adding it in. I mean, people asked for Slam a lot in ME3 MP even though the ability would have been terrible and arguably the worst ability in the game.

[The NightMan Cometh]

After looking thru most these of term paper responses.. ( which are all valid, just saying lots & lots of words )   My non-educated in the ME numbers self...thinks that since they announced all these other type of modes we will get..that balancing for PvP would be way more than they would be able to put up with..on top of the balancing that is going to come with the other modes.  PvP will not happen.

[TMB903]

And when were these confirmed in Andromeda? The combat system has changed significantly between the first 3 games, who's to say we wont have significant changes to the combat system and game mechanics once again? Many of those things you mentioned can be addressed by extending the cooldowns, reducing the duration or making some powers active for a one-time hit after a certain amount of kills i.e. Singularity, grenade powers etc. Powers like pull, throw, lash etc could only work (ragdolling the player ) once tge enemy players shield is down the same thing could be applied to stasis and the various tech/ biotic explosions. Those are just some ideas but there are many options at Bioware's disposal

Well idk about the other powers but Biotic Charge was confirmed by Chris Wynn on Twitter to be in ME:A

[Swan Killer]

Only if I can give the other player a big ****** elbow, while trying to Shadow Strike me.

[KaiserShep]

Well idk about the other powers but Biotic Charge was confirmed by Chris Wynn on Twitter to be in ME:A

 

That's really all I need to know to be happy. I can rest easy leaving my heart with Vangard. 

[ReadingRambo220]

Pvp would be ok I guess as long as there is still co-op mode.

Then again there would be many nerfs to try and balance.