95 réponses à ce sujet

[Kriztofer]

They are making an extended version which you get for free if you already own it!

Which, coincidentally, is being made because the game is being ported to Xbox One & PS4.

[DragonRacer]

Tried Templar. Other thing I noticed:

Attack Cancelling is a lot more work on gamepad Controller and it doesn't work nearly as well when doing Shield Wall Attack Cancel.

 

Shield Wall operates differently between Controller and KB control schemes. Controller is hold to shieldwall, and has a minimum time. KB taps shield wall and its up, and untap can take it down. The shield wall animation itself can be cancelled in addition to the the attack animation on KB, resulting in much much faster attack speed and overall DPS using a sword and SWAC on KB instead of Controller

 

The interface AND the way the game behaves changes completely. Some classes are gimped for advanced users without KB&M.

 

If I were on console, I'd consider a KB&M option.

 

Sprint:
I've since been told by BioMasika that sprint can be activated with a left joystick click, so holding down is not necessary after the intial click if the movement is sustained. It has to be restarted every time though.

 

That is mostly true on host but unless you're off-host. Network desynch issues can make the host forget you are running, interrupting the sprint and requiring reclicking.

 

That said, on PC we have the option for Macros to activate always run in the backround. My xb360 controller specifically is also much harder to press than the Mechanical keyboard I have with much more responsive keys, making my keyboard a much nicer (more tactile responsive) option.

 

Now you probably understand better why, when you were advising a console player about Shield Wall canceling being better, I was suggesting it would be easier for them to animation cancel using the click sprint routine. That, in particular, is a very distinct difference in ease and efficiency between the two input systems.

[Drasca]

Now you probably understand better why, when you were advising a console player about Shield Wall canceling being better, I was suggesting it would be easier for them to animation cancel using the click sprint routine. That, in particular, is a very distinct difference in ease and efficiency between the two input systems.

 

Yeah, it SHOULDN'T be different but it is.

 

Charge also operates differently. You don't have to hold it down, like shield wall, on PC. Just tap it and it'll go until you're out of stamina or hit a wall unless you actively cancel it earlier.

[Underpromoted]

My #1 gripe with controllers is AoE targetting, Barrier being the biggest culprit.  Stand near the group - start to cast Barrier - move just slightly to catch everyone and activate.  Works great unless you're doing this in a tense situation and fire off a barrier that auto-targetted for some ungodly reason on an enemy across the battlefield...

 

That being said, like already mentioned, I also could not stand the kb&m controls when first playing this game - whereas controller felt much more natural to me.  That, less joint strain, and occasionally losing track of where the cursor is... I've stuck with controller and would not call either input method useless.

 

edit: gripe not grip >.>

 

I agree, I couldn't stand the kb/m controls when the game launched to the point that I returned the game before getting coaxed to try it with a controller and enjoying it. I think they patched the kb/m interface pretty early on cause it was widely accepted that it was crap. As I understand it that patch was pretty well recieved and kb/m is fine now but I haven't tried it since. Less joint strain is king! Being able to lean back and relax in my chair while grinding for hours has done wonders for my carpel tunnel syndrome and back problems. Also, I can now rest my plateful of tostinos on my belly while I play. Winning.

 

That being said casting aoe spells SUCKS on controller. Some offensive spells will autocenter under your target which make things a little easier, but this doesnt seem to work with barrier/friendly targets. Having to slowly drag a cirlce onto a distant ally for a barrier is definitely a limitation on the controller. You also need to be a little more aware of your surroundings and use the radar more heavily in hectic fights cause camera angle changes take a little longer than snapping around with the mouse.

 

If you're having trouble getting used to the controller try canceling your momentum by tapping sprint just as you would cancel an attack. After I learned to tap sprint every time I needed to do some ankle breaking direction changes the controller started feeling much snappier. Also if you miss straffing you can lock onto a target with right thumbstick which enables you to circle and strafe around them, definitely a little clunkier than pc but not too bad.

 

*EDIT* I've also noticed that holding down sprint on a controller isn't needed as some people gripe about. One click is usually enough to activate sprint but on a laggy host sometimes it will drop off. To avoid this I just click the thumbstick every couples of seconds when sprinting long distances. No autorun though

 

TLDR: controller is great for classes without targetable area spells, but switch to you kb/m if you wanna play mages above a casual level

[Drasca]

TLDR: controller is great for classes without targetable area spells, but switch to you kb/m if you wanna play mages above a casual level

 

Mages, Templars, Archers, Hunters, ... pretty much everything that isn't Melee and Templar.

[Underpromoted]

Mages, Templars, Archers, Hunters, ... pretty much everything that isn't Melee and Templar.

 

I get the templar/SW cancel disadvantage of the controller and mages obv. What's the downside of ranged rogues on controller Drasca?

 

BTW you ran me through my first nightmare dragon yesterday (AnulHarvester as SS) You rock man, thanks! What're your promotion stats if you dont mind me asking?

Modifié par Underpromoted, 15 août 2015 - 06:13 .

[T_elic]

Funny, for me it's the exact opposite. I thought the PC controls are terrible. I tried it for about an hour and then plugged my PS4 controller into my PC.

[QuickerBladeEHGH]

OP could've asked the question without resorting to "console peasants," like we don't know any better.

 

It's not that hard to be good with the controller. Just like with mouse/keyboard, you just need to get used to it.

[Drasca]

I get the templar/SW cancel disadvantage of the controller and mages obv. What's the downside of ranged rogues on controller Drasca?

 

BTW you ran me through my first nightmare dragon yesterday (AnulHarvester as SS) You rock man, thanks! What're your promotion stats if you dont mind me asking?

 

You can't target anything individually with accuracy. With the mouse, you can click on individual targets, hard target lock them and extend the range of abilities past the basic attack.

 

i.e. Full Draw will go all the way across the map as opposed to being unable to target anything beyond a certain range on controller.

 

There's a hard limit to how good you can get with controller due to limitations. The console peasants that only experience controller with no KB experience don't know how good it can get.

[Deebo305]

I tried out a usb xbox 360 controller to play DAMP today.

It was horrible. Console peasants, how do you even survive with these controls? Oh that's right, most of you don't. Outside of having lots of promotes, or playing cautiously, most of you are dead.

Movement:
No strafing. It is technically possible, but not really, because it is super hard to juke left and right while still maintaining a forward motion. You can hard strafe left and right, tapping these directional buttons on PC. You cannot move forward and tap left or right at the same time quickly with the joystick.

Sprinting via holding down joystick AND no autorun? Eww. We just tap shift, or get an macro to guarantee running on PC.

Camera control and targetting:
It was absolutely sluggish and guesswork at best. I could snap the camera to anything, but there's a delay before moving, and the control's super imprecise. If this was an RTS it'd be impossible to manage. If I'm trying to zoom around, I can't move and attack at the same time because these controls are so ****** shaky.

I couldn't quickly and precisely or hard target anything either. How the **** am I supposed to find a despair demon to hidden blades in the middle of a pack of rage demons? Why can't I snap to a target before it runs the **** out of the zoom

Speaking of Zoom, it is too damned close to the character. I'm zoomed all the way out on the PC so I can actually see the battlefield. Why the heck is it so close to the player with a controller plugged in? I can't see past my own nose, and maybe my character's boots.

So, can't see, can't move fast, can't target enemies precisely. WTF is wrong with the controller?

Reading your post, all I see is this...

[EnemySpinach]

Disclaimer: I have not read beyond the first page yet because I didn't want to forget what I wanted to say. If this was resolved on future pages, feel free to ignore me. I'll catch up once I post this, and possibly edit/delete it as needed.

EDIT: This disclaimer was unneeded! And it looks like my post is aimed at more than just Drasca, now!


As a "console peasant" who puts up with "PC Master Racers" far too frequently, Drasca, I will be dissecting your post and replying to each and every individual thing. Please try not to take anything I say too personally. My own input will be boldened and underlined.

 

I tried out a usb xbox 360 controller to play DAMP today.

 

It was horrible. Console peasants, how do you even survive with these controls? Oh that's right, most of you don't. Outside of having lots of promotes, or playing cautiously, most of you are dead.

 

... because playing cautiously is bad? I'm a more casual DAI MP player and am sitting at 12/12/14 for promotions, and I can solo Perilous on some characters. I fail to see how not being a bumrush berserker is a bad thing.

 

Movement:

No strafing. It is technically possible, but not really, because it is super hard to juke left and right while still maintaining a forward motion. You can hard strafe left and right, tapping these directional buttons on PC. You cannot move forward and tap left or right at the same time quickly with the joystick.

 

I have absolutely zero issues. I'd also argue that having complete 360 degree movement freedom is far more precise and useful than the 8-direction WASD limitations.

 

Sprinting via holding down joystick AND no autorun? Eww. We just tap shift, or get an macro to guarantee running on PC.

 

So wait, are you actually complaning that our gameplay is more involved than getting a macro to automatically do some actions for you? That you need to pay more active attention and act accordingly?

 

Camera control and targetting:

It was absolutely sluggish and guesswork at best. I could snap the camera to anything, but there's a delay before moving, and the control's super imprecise. If this was an RTS it'd be impossible to manage. If I'm trying to zoom around, I can't move and attack at the same time because these controls are so ****** shaky.

 

This is probably an issue with your controller. Or skill level with the conroller. Honestly, if it's the second one, it's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. It took me YEARS of casual FPSing with friends before I adapted to right-stick aiming. I was an inverted southpaw control guy before that.

 

I couldn't quickly and precisely or hard target anything either. How the **** am I supposed to find a despair demon to hidden blades in the middle of a pack of rage demons? Why can't I snap to a target before it runs the **** out of the zoom

 

I don't really understand how the PC version can really be any better on this front. Target-changing with the hard lock (right stick) can be mildly inconvenient at times, but the soft lock should work identically to a mouse, just with a stick.

 

Speaking of Zoom, it is too damned close to the character. I'm zoomed all the way out on the PC so I can actually see the battlefield. Why the heck is it so close to the player with a controller plugged in? I can't see past my own nose, and maybe my character's boots.

 

I can't honestly answer that, and it's a good question. If I had to guess, I'd blame it on PC Entitlement (more on this later) since dedicated PC gamers typically vastly prefer KB/M and controllers are seen more as a console thing.

 

So, can't see, can't move fast, can't target enemies precisely. WTF is wrong with the controller?

 

(No point in repeating myself.)

 

Other Controls

Potions: I seriously have to hit two buttons to get the potions, holding down one to access the other? That's a major delay when I need rock armor asap.

 

Mildly inconvenient, I do agree, but IMO it's faster and simpler than reaching over from the WASD over to the 8 on the keyboard, by default controls.

 

Can't change / configure any of these bloody controls! I don't want A for jump and do everything. I want to use it for an active ability. I can rebind keys on a keyboard, why can't I do it on a controller?

The controls baffled me at first with some design choices (such as moving the basic attacks to R2) but it began to make perfect sense as I played more. For example, A/X (360/PS3) to jump makes perfect sense since it's where your thumb naturally rests, making it readily available for quick, reflexive hops over enemy attacks and the like. My ONLY gripe, and this is admittedly a major one, is the menus being locked to joystick only on PS3 (Seriously, look at the PS3 controller, why the flying fart can't I use the D-Pad for MENUS?) Point being, while being able to rebind controls is nice and all, the simple fact of the matter is that devs do get lazy with controllers. Might I suggest using Joy2Key or Xpadder to trick your computer into thinking your controller is a keyboard, so you can rebind at will?
 

Final Words:

Initially, I thought using a controller might be more inuitive and responsive than KB&M. I was dead wrong. This is crap on all fronts.

 

The only benefit is that it is a lot less stress on the joints, and it is way easier to lean back playing this game.  .  . Medallian if you're reading, I totally understand why playing lazy is the way to go on a controller setup. The controller makes it too damned hard to make precise movements. I'd have to make a completely different set of builds because the input device is so different  (useless).

 

(Again, no need to repeat myself.)

So, you may be wondering what I mean by "PC Entitlement." One very good example is the PC port of Blazblue Continuum Shift Extend. By the time it came out, it was an entire itineration behind (consoles already had Blazblue Chronophantasma, meaning PC was getting Blazblue 2.5 instead of Blazblue 3) So the PC crowd had good reason to complain about that. But they chose to complain about something else, instead! Every frame of animation was hand-drawn and looks amazing in 1080P (even 720) on a 60+ inch TV. Yet, many force-upscaled it to 4000-whatever because "it's goddamn PC" and started whining about the way it looked pixelated on their 30 inch monitors. It's their own fault for doing that and they refuse to admit it because they're the PC market and the devs need to blow them.

 

Basically, "PC entitlement" is "it has to be this way because PC." Imagine, for example, a horror game with heavy fog to limit field of view as a gameplay element since you can't see too much coming. PC entitlement leads to mods to increase the FOV "because PC" and then bashing it for being a bad horror game since it wasn't scary because they removed the element that makes it scary. PC Entitlement was so bad that it led to Steam blocking the tag "30 FPS" on steam since people were just bombing games with it. Don't get me wrong, I like my games at as high a framerate as possible, sure, but people say things like they get nauseous dropping below 50 is absolutely ridiculous since cinema is 24 FPS and you clearly can't watch TV shows or movies ever with expectations like that.

 

Why do I bring this up? Because honestly, Drasca, your post really made me think of PC entitlement all the way through. You literally open by calling console peasants out on surviving with these controls, and then say they don't, as if you're still automatically superior because PC. I mean, really? No offense, but you just really come across as one of "those" guys, you know?

[Underpromoted]

You can't target anything individually with accuracy. With the mouse, you can click on individual targets, hard target lock them and extend the range of abilities past the basic attack.

 

i.e. Full Draw will go all the way across the map as opposed to being unable to target anything beyond a certain range on controller.

 

There's a hard limit to how good you can get with controller due to limitations. The console peasants that only experience controller with no KB experience don't know how good it can get.

 

Hmm yeah I can see that. You can get pretty good at finding the target you want with practice on the controller, but I didnt realize you were shooting yourself in the foot (HA!) in the range of abilities.

 

That about sums it up imo, you can have a lot of fun on the controller but there's a cap

[Drasca]

Hmm yeah I can see that. You can get pretty good at finding the target you want with practice on the controller, but I didnt realize you were shooting yourself in the foot (HA!) in the range of abilities.

 

Oh, what's more with that targetting is that the 'snap to' autotargetting is counter to how a FireWall / Mine elementalist should play. Need to find a way to either not target anything and guarantee the target starts near the player, or beg the devs to put in a toggle to always target self for those area spell casts.

 

I was watching Dragonracer get more and more frustrated with the Elementalist style with the controller issues, and I would feel the same way in her shoes not knowing how good it could get but hobbled by the controller mucking up targetting.

[Drasca]

Disclaimer: I have not read beyond the first page yet because I didn't want to forget what I wanted to say. If this was resolved on future pages, feel free to ignore me. I'll catch up once I post this, and possibly edit/delete it as needed.

EDIT: This disclaimer was unneeded! And it looks like my post is aimed at more than just Drasca, now

 

Really, I don't care about the other people. Half your post however is about PC abiliteis you are completely ignorant about, and the other half about the off-topic rant about stuff that isn't DAMP. A very small slice actually concedes MAYBE there's something that can be done better on KB&M. You need to really open up the idea that a change in input device and how the game responds to input actually legitimately changes gameplay, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.

 

I don't need to convince you, because you're already close minded and decided on console superiority.

 

This thread is about experiences with console controles, and how its different between game pad and KB&M. The rest is off-topic gibberish that doesn't belong here. Take your ranting on other people elsewhere. If you want to participate, stay on topic.

[KalGerion_Beast]

L2P Scrub  .

 

But in all honesty, as others have said, if its the first time you've attempted to use a controller your going to do terrible.  No getting around it.  Might take a little bit but you'll find yourself eventually becoming familiar with it.  Might not have all the same features, oddities, and quirks of KB+M, but its acceptable with familiarity.  

[Underpromoted]

I think I'll switch over to kb/m for my willpower grind. Is there a thread with more information about macros you'd recommend kb/m fans?

[DragonRacer]

Oh, what's more with that targetting is that the 'snap to' autotargetting is counter to how a FireWall / Mine elementalist should play. Need to find a way to either not target anything and guarantee the target starts near the player, or beg the devs to put in a toggle to always target self for those area spell casts.

 

I was watching Dragonracer get more and more frustrated with the Elementalist style with the controller issues, and I would feel the same way in her shoes not knowing how good it could get but hobbled by the controller mucking up targetting.

 

Yeah, that was obnoxious. I had not tried Fire Mine before and I understand, on a logical level, what its benefit is.

 

But the fact that it starts a freaking mile away and I gotta draaaaaaag the damn thing down to place it on me. Every. Single. Time.

 

I do not foresee me keeping the ability after this promotion. Unless I figure out a way to work around it and angels start singing during the rest of my leveling. But I'd almost rather have Winter's Grasp back as the "oh snap" button to freeze a baddie on my butt and flee the scene. Especially since even after the mine would set/activate, it only seemed like it would go off maybe half the time right as the enemy is taking a piece out of me anyway. Which is probably just a buggy PS4 thing. Left me feeling extremely "meh" about it, though, given the circumstances.

[Drasca]

Yeah, that was obnoxious. I had not tried Fire Mine before and I understand, on a logical level, what its benefit is.

 

But the fact that it starts a freaking mile away and I gotta draaaaaaag the damn thing down to place it on me. Every. Single. Time.

 

I do not foresee me keeping the ability after this promotion. Unless I figure out a way to work around it and angels start singing during the rest of my leveling. But I'd almost rather have Winter's Grasp back as the "oh snap" button to freeze a baddie on my butt and flee the scene. Especially since even after the mine would set/activate, it only seemed like it would go off maybe half the time right as the enemy is taking a piece out of me anyway. Which is probably just a buggy PS4 thing. Left me feeling extremely "meh" about it, though, given the circumstances.

 

No with fire mine / wall / storm you have to positionally change your playstyle. No offense but you got too used to playing like random pugs out in the open with no line of sight or cover. You could've placed those things ahead of time and chose to use the abilties in a different order and timing. It is more frustrating, but part of it is due to how you're actually playing by choosing spots with line of sight from the enemy, and trying to deal with learning and fighting your own instincts at the same time while being shot at.

 

It would also help to fight very close to your reaver friend. If you absolutely need to fight out in the open, it should be within 5 meters of your reaver ally. That way they can cover you with spot intercepting of enemies approaching you, and you can cover them with barrier and CC.

 

There's a lot of things that went wrong, and it wasn't just the fire mine. If you sat down in game with me (or watched me stream wtf to do, even with a controller), you'd be able to do fine because the learning pacing can be controlled instead of being overwhelmed with everything gone wrong at once.

 

 

But in all honesty, as others have said, if its the first time you've attempted to use a controller your going to do terrible.  No getting around it.  Might take a little bit but you'll find yourself eventually becoming familiar with it.  Might not have all the same features, oddities, and quirks of KB+M, but its acceptable with familiarity.  

 

This is where you have a misconception. I don't do 'terrible' I do 'not nearly as well as where it should be' for classes that need it. It is still not 'acceptable' to be this sloppy.

 

I can make the distinction between what is 'barely useable' and can go above and beyond precise. The controller is sloppy, and dragon age's control and movement scheme doesn't pair well with a gradient pressure based joystick as there's only two speeds and it isn't variable with how much the player pushes on the stick.

 

The targetting system is sloppy too, but made worse on the controller.

 

It takes 2-5 seconds for Fire Mine placement to go where it needs to. It should take 0.5 or less. On melee classes they can get away with just swinging whatever is nearby without regard for targetting much,  but on any class that needs to actually target, let alone something outside of basic attack range? Takes 10x or more as long. It takes .5 seconds or less to hard to target an enemy no matter where it is on the screen and begin engaging. The joysticks are inherently less accurate.

 

It definitely does NOT have the same features, and you don't realize the magnitude of the loss because you've never experienced the heights of and peaks of the differences.

 

Someone who's never shot accurately because they've only used close range shotguns has no clue how much is involved in distance target shooting or what it is like for a long distance sniper. There's hard limits to how fast, how accurately and the range to what the controller can target. Controller can only imagine, and some can't even understand how readily KB&M can do this.

 

The controller is a set of safety scissors that barely cuts anything. The KB&M is a scalpel both for movement and targetting.

[FMP2013]

I'd like to use both mouse and controller at the same time.

[EnemySpinach]

Really, I don't care about the other people. Half your post however is about PC abiliteis you are completely ignorant about, and the other half about the off-topic rant about stuff that isn't DAMP. A very small slice actually concedes MAYBE there's something that can be done better on KB&M. You need to really open up the idea that a change in input device and how the game responds to input actually legitimately changes gameplay, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.

 

I don't need to convince you, because you're already close minded and decided on console superiority.

 

This thread is about experiences with console controles, and how its different between game pad and KB&M. The rest is off-topic gibberish that doesn't belong here. Take your ranting on other people elsewhere. If you want to participate, stay on topic.

*bursts out laughing* HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Yeah no. I've never once said anything aboiut console superiority., And you started the thread by calling out console peasants and literally saying they suck - despite, as you said, this being about KB/M vs controller, - which is why I mentioned anything at all. And somehow that makes -me- the closed minded one? I'm not going to waste my time dealing with you. You're stuck-up, arrogant, conceited, and projecting your own flaws onto those around you. Don't bother replying to me, as I won't read it. I just wanted to say this before leaving.

[DanRConway]

PC Entitlement was so bad that it led to Steam blocking the tag "30 FPS" on steam since people were just bombing games with it. Don't get me wrong, I like my games at as high a framerate as possible, sure, but people say things like they get nauseous dropping below 50 is absolutely ridiculous since cinema is 24 FPS and you clearly can't watch TV shows or movies ever with expectations like that.

 

My inner video nerd can't help but chime in. Spoilered for wall of text and large images.

Spoiler

There is a significant difference between framerate in film and computer-rendered graphics (console/PC games, even CGI animation-- doesn't matter), which unfortunately is very confusing due to similar terminology being used.

Without getting into the technical history of why we ended up with a 24p "standard" in American cinema (actually 23.976 fps-- did I mention this is confusing?), suffice it to say the movement of the subject during the time a frame is exposed, also known as motion blur, tricks the eye into the smooth perception of motion. This is why if you pause a movie, most frames will not look like sharp photographs. The amount of blur is controlled by how long each frame is exposed for, and can be used creatively by filmmakers-- larger amounts of blur invoke large amounts of motion, and so forth. The ballpark guideline for exposure time is typically twice the framerate, so a piece for TV that's going to be shown at 30p (29.97 fps actual) will typically have each frame exposed for 1/60th of a second or less.

Motion blur in film, even during a non-action sequence:

In CGI and related fields, images are being generated using models and lighting effects. The computer is guessing (very well, usually) how to distort it's mathematically-perfect models in order to make it look like it's moving. It does this many times a second, and with enough of those, the human eye can be fooled into the perception of smooth motion. However, if you froze each individual frame of an animation, it would appear crisp and sharp-- there's no physical motion to occur over the 1/60th of a second that the frame was "shot" at. This is why videogame screenshots look glorious, and typically have lots of details and whatnot.

Such as our own beloved Dragon Age: 

Note the perfectly-frozen waterfalls and birds.
 

In order to improve the perception of motion, animators and game engines have two options. Either they display more frames (this is where the 60fps target comes from, though the human eye can still perceive the difference between even 60 and 120-- hopefully soon we'll all be on glorious 4k 120 hz screens, or better!) or they can apply motion blur-like filters on top of their graphics. This is often a setting people choose to toggle off as a matter of preference for improved clarity in-game, but some titles use excessive motion blur in order to disguise crappy performance or a 30fps lock, and often will not let you disable it.

These effects in games also have huge creative impact, just like in films: player perception of motion, increasing immersion, focusing the player on certain things, etc. They can also be used to create the much-vaunted "cinematic look." 

Used well, to simulate the motion of a car in The Last of Us:

Used for dramatic effect and to notify the player of the "suppression" mechanic in Battlefield:

TL;DR: framerate in film has very little to do with framerate in animation. The look of 24p will not look like a game playing at 24fps.

If you can stand to listen to a self-avowed PC elitest, watch TotalBiscuit's video on framerate, it brings up several other good points, such as input responsiveness, that are significant. 

On a game-related note, I tend to agree with you, Drasca: not a big fan of the controller controls. Crappy targeting, animation-cancelling is much harder, and oh god the spell placement. Part of my distaste is due to lack of familiarity no doubt, but the advantages (being able to sit far away?) do not merit learning it, in this internet a-hole's opinion.