930 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Beyond the fact that I was the first person to name drop Rousey in this thread, you're underestimating what professional wrestlers are capable of. They're among the best athletes in the world. They aren't professional fighters, you're right about that. But in terms of endurance, in terms of durability, in terms of strength, they are leagues above the average person, blue collar or otherwise. 

 

Before anyone says it, yes, I am well aware that wrestling is "predetermined" and cooperative. It is not an actual combat sport. I don't need to be told that. But I also don't need to be lectured on their physical capabilities, because that is something I am also well versed in.

 

Here's one of these female "world class athletes" getting rekt by a middle aged out of shape fat body with no pro-fighting history.

 

[Nomen Mendax]

That's all fair, but I disagree with the reasoning that women don't choose to join the military simply because they are less physically capable. I think it has more to do with the fact that being in the military is a dangerous and often life-changing job that is extremely taxing both physically and mentally. Joining the military and climbing the ranks requires a lot of work and sacrifices and most women probably just don't feel like that's what they wanna do (and I don't blame them). Augmentations and bio-engineering won't change that.

 

It's the same reason why we don't see any women in mining, and very few women in construction. Those jobs aren't fun, they're taxing, require a lot of work and don't really pay well in comparison.

If anything, the fact that women can freely decide not to do these jobs is a sign of privilege. Women are extremely privileged for not being forced to join the military (unlike men until recently) and not having to take up crappy jobs to support themselves or their families (unlike men).

 

I don't want to be rude but do you have any idea what you are talking about? Many women end up having to do crappy jobs to support their families. Honestly, this thread is just depressing. The OP asks that the depiction of men and women in the military in-game ties in to its own lore and there's twelve pages of people whining about "feminazis", quotas and other related garbage.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And what battles was won under his command? 

World War 2. He was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, given authority to be the Commander and Chief of their armed forces. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

I don't get it what such big deal on voting, voting is joke it is just big popularity contest. I never vote because i have noting to vote for i just don't like all candidates. And disappointed in elections in general.

Realy it was a way to get the peasants to think they had a say in who they were cannon fodder for and who the French man they were killing was... it was useualy the French. Thing was women almost got the right i think it was 7 years earlier than they did. Whith the same mandatory conscriptions. But it was voted out.

Now there were 2 factions inthe womens rights lobby one was a terrorist group in all but name. Before anyone responds tell me. What do you call someone whe destroys propperty, burns houses and pushes people off cliffs to get there way?  

That action undermined the real push to get the right to vote due to people seeing the action of those women as proof that women were irrational.

I iz done on this subjekt. Lets talk about fat chicks.

[The Heretic of Time]

I don't want to be rude but do you have any idea what you are talking about? Many women end up having to do crappy jobs to support their families. Honestly, this thread is just depressing. The OP asks that the depiction of men and women in the military in-game ties in to its own lore and there's twelve pages of people whining about "feminazis", quotas and other related garbage.

 

Yes, I know what I'm talking about. Those "crappy" jobs women take up are nothing compared to the dangerous and brutal jobs that men take up. When it the last time you saw a female garbage collector? Or female miner? Or female construction worker?

Those jobs are all taken up by men because women are unwilling to do them.

[Lady Artifice]

Women not having the right to vote had nothing to do with patriarchy.

Women being the responsibility of men is no longer the case. Even so, this is also not a sign of patriarchy. If anything, this is a great privilege for women, as you women benefit from alimony and child support and you're almost always guaranteed to get the children in a divorce, after which men can only hope to ever see their own children again. Many of them don't, yet they still have to pay their ex-wife alimony and  child support.

Because men are expected to take care of their wives, it puts a great burden on their shoulders. Many men are forced to work crappy jobs and work over-hours just to support themselves and/or their families. Even after a divorce, men still have to pay for their wives and children, while only the women get child support!

 

Men also take up all the dangerous or crappy jobs for minimal pay. When is the last time you saw a female garbage collector, or a female miner? Is this evidence for patriarchy too?

 

How about the fact that almost 100% of all homeless people are men?

Or the fact that over 90% of successful suicides are committed by men?

 

Or the fact that the people living below the poverty line are primarily men?

Yeah, that patriarchy is definitely working out for us men!

No serious historian or intelligent person believes in your feminist definition of the patriarchy. It is very much a feminist boogeyman that doesn't exist in reality.

 

 

 

Okay, amongst all of the assumptions in this post sticks out this implication that patriarchy/matriarchy is, in some way, objectively preferable for the gender in control. I do not believe it is, and I do not support the practice of men being given the more dangerous, difficult, grimy, or inconvenient roles by default. 

 

If you do, we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether that's okay.

 

Where I do point and laugh at you, is your dismissal of patriarchy as a term in the face of the overwhelmingly reality of history. 

 

When you say, "women not being able to vote has nothing to do with patriarchy," you ignore the fact that the word "patriarchy" is, quite simply, a term for a society in which women are not permitted the same degree of autonomy and influence, i.e. to vote, as men are. You can keep saying that, by all means, but in doing so you redefine the word to your own perception rather than actually addressing it as it is used in academia. 

[General TSAR]

This thread sure doesn't disappoint. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Well, he is nearly unstoppable.

 

 

Imoveable hand in your nerd card.

[Ridwan]

World War 2. He was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, given authority to be the Commander and Chief of their Army, Navy, and Air Force. 

Not an answer. Being a figurehead is not the same as being the one that forms the strategies and commands battalions and lay out a battle plan. He's like Steve Jobs, telling brilliant men to do their jobs and then taking in the credit it seems.

 

And Britain didn't win WW2. The yanks and Brits fought about 10% of the German armed forces, while the rest were fighting in Russia. If any nation deserves the credit for winning WW2 (and no nation really does, since it was a joint affair) then it would be Russia

[Jorji Costava]

No serious historian or intelligent person believes in your feminist definition of the patriarchy. It is very much a feminist boogeyman that doesn't exist in reality.

 

 

A very brief response, because there is way more to discuss than I have the time to: Is this statement based on any survey by you of the relevant historical or academic literature on the subject? If not, I would consider not making strong claims about "what all intelligent people believe."

 

My own experience in the academic world suggests that the opposite is the case. Feminism is a thriving intellectual tradition, to the point where even evolutionary psychologists like David Buss identify as feminists and will discuss the "origins of patriarchy" (his words, not mine). Even philosopher David Benatar, author of The Second Sexism (a book which cites pretty much all of the factoids about ways in which men are mistreated that you just did) will concede that on the whole, discrimination against women is more severe than discrimination against men.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

So name a female dominated field then.

I'd rather focus on that embellished mess of hyperbole you imagined as a fight summary. Two people fought, victory by knockout. This happens a lot. When Anderson Silva's leg broke in half I don't think anyone thought it was because he was a man.

[SnakeCode]

I'd rather focus on that embellished mess of hyperbole you imagined as a fight summary. Two people fought, victory by knockout. This happens a lot. When Anderson Silva's leg broke in half I don't think anyone thought it was because he was a man.

 

Thought not. So predictable.

[Ridwan]

I'd rather focus on that embellished mess of hyperbole you imagined as a fight summary. Two people fought, victory by knockout. This happens a lot. When Anderson Silva's leg broke in half I don't think anyone thought it was because he was a man.

What?

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

You know Factoid means Fake fact right?

 

@ Snake code. Health care. Educaton or anything consumer based i suppose.

[Seboist]

Thought not. So predictable.

 

Denial of sexual dimorphism and men's athletic superiority over women is essentially the modern era's equivalent of young earth creationism. That there are people on here seriously trying to argue that women could compete against men in any kind of professional sport with a straight face is a laugh riot. Women can't even compete against men in GOLF!

 

I wouldn't put it past these people to think they could win at arm wrestling against a chimp or fist fighting a grizzly if they trained hard enough.

[Lady Artifice]

And what battles was won under his command? 

 

Oh, lol. 

[Nomen Mendax]

Yes, I know what I'm talking about. Those "crappy" jobs women take up are nothing compared to the dangerous and brutal jobs that men take up. When it the last time you saw a female garbage collector? Or female miner? Or female construction worker?

Those jobs are all taken up by men because women are unwilling to do them.

Where I live those are all examples of unionized jobs (at least generally). So they are actually fairly well paid - so therefore not what would normally be referred to as crappy jobs. According to some website that I just looked up the lowest paying jobs in America are:

 

Shampooers

Food Preparation and Serving Workers

Fast food cooks

Dishwashers

Baristas

Counter attendants

etc.

 

None of those are famous for being male dominated. Your claim was that women didn't have to take crappy jobs to support themselves or their families. This is untrue.

[Ridwan]

Oh, lol. 

 

"Go win this battle!" "Yes sir" = military genius.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Imoveable hand in your nerd card.

He has superhuman strength, endurance, and constitution as well, which is only increases as he gets older and his mutation gets stronger. 

 

 

Not an answer. Being a figurehead is not the same as being the one that forms the strategies and commands battalions and lay out a battle plan. He's like Steve Jobs, telling brilliant men to do their jobs and then taking in the credit it seems.

 

And Britain didn't win WW2. The yanks and Brits fought about 10% of the German armed forces, while the rest were fighting in Russia. If any nation deserves the credit for winning WW2 (and no nation really does, since it was a joint affair) then it would be Russia

So practically every historical and military scolar is wrong? Okay then.

But fine, I'll use another example from World War 2: Joseph Stalin. Go on, tell me how he didn't lead the Soviet forces. 

[Ridwan]

Where I live those are all examples of unionized jobs (at least generally). So they are actually fairly well paid - so therefore not what would normally be referred to as crappy jobs. According to some website that I just looked up the lowest paying jobs in America are:

 

Shampooers

Food Preparation and Serving Workers

Fast food cooks

Dishwashers

Baristas

Counter attendants

etc.

 

None of those are famous for being male dominated. Your claim was that women didn't have to take crappy jobs to support themselves or their families. This is untrue.

What's a shampooer? Like someone who washes peoples hair?

[SnakeCode]

Denial of sexual metamorphism and men's athletic superiority over women is essentially the modern era's equivalent of young earth creationism. That there are people on here seriously trying to argue that women could compete against men in any kind of professional sport with a straight face is a laugh riot. Women can't even compete against men in GOLF!

 

I wouldn't put it past these people to think they could win at arm wrestling against a chimp or fist fighting a grizzly if they trained hard enough.

 

I don't get it either. Then they claim you're a sexist if you take Biology over their beliefs. You're on to something with the comparison to creationists.

[Ridwan]

He has superhuman strength, endurance, and constitution as well, which is only increases as he gets older and his mutation gets stronger. 

 

 

Fine, I'll use another example from World War 2: Joseph Stalin. Go on, tell me how he didn't lead the Soviet forces. 

Because, this debate started about military leaders. None of the people you mentioned are conventional military leaders other than the rank their offices automatically gave them by default or that they assigned themselves. They're the Steve Jobs of WW2. Telling their generals to win the battles, and they do it, but they get the credit.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Dont look at me i deal whit A.B.C. waste i dont know.

Anyway can we talk more about the Blob? Id rather talk about him. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because, this debate started about military leaders. None of the people you mentioned are conventional military leaders other than the rank their offices automatically gave them by default or that they assigned themselves. They're the Steve Jobs of WW2. Telling their generals to win the battles, and they do it, but they get the credit.

Except in both examples they also served in a military leadership position during a conflict, their success and skill being one of the reasons they later became leaders of their nations, either through consolidating their power or because of the people's will. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Where I live those are all examples of unionized jobs (at least generally). So they are actually fairly well paid - so therefore not what would normally be referred to as crappy jobs. According to some website that I just looked up the lowest paying jobs in America are:

 

Shampooers

Food Preparation and Serving Workers

Fast food cooks

Dishwashers

Baristas

Counter attendants

etc.

 

None of those are famous for being male dominated. Your claim was that women didn't have to take crappy jobs to support themselves or their families. This is untrue.

 

There is more to a job than a paycheck. If garbage collection, construction or mining paid as bad as those (relatively simple) jobs, no sane person would take the job.

As for the jobs you listed: None of those are female dominated either. I actually was a fast-food cook as a teen. Most cooks where I worked were men. The women at our place usually did the easier jobs (working at the counter).

And with that, I'm out. But before I go, I'll leave this here: