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More high ranking human women please


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#376
Battlebloodmage

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I don't enjoy privileges though, as a straight white male. For instance lets say I can get married to whoever I want. Is this a privilege I hold over gay men? No. It's not. Being treated fairly is not a privilege. It is, or should be, standard behaviour.  All so called privileges that I am claimed to have are along those lines. Noone is jumping for the chance to provide me service that noone else is getting. Noone cares about me or my gender or my skin colour. They care about making a sale, or whether I can get a job done.

 

A privilege is when someone gets treated better than the default, not GETTNG the default.treatment. Dwayne Johnston is privileged. Warren Buffet, is too, and Donald Trump, Oprah Winfrey, Queen Elizabeth and any number of other famous or rich people. They get benefits that neither you nor I get because of their wealth and fame or position in life, not because of their genetics (Well, except for the Queen I guess. heh).

 

And no, not all men, straight men, white men or whatever combination you prefer, get even the 'default'. Perhaps most do, I don't know, but it's still not a 'privilege'. Any more than it is when people other than 'straight white men' get the default treatment. Which plenty of them do.

Well, most often, the advantages reside in hiring and social status. While not everyone can benefit from the privilege, it's there. Being a minority can make certain aspects of it more apparent. Even portrayal, white usually is the default portrayal to go to when it come to the media and advertisement. Movies and TV shows casting required Caucasian as a requirement, especially in the main roles. Roles were changed to whites in adaptation. In the workplace, Whites often get hired more due to the perception. There is the issue of bamboo ceiling, where minorities like Asians have higher education but achieve less and often don't get promoted even with same or higher experience and education. As I stated, this is not the case everywhere, but it still happens very often. I personally know someone who would never hire a woman because he thinks women are too much problems to work with. This is not really the place to discuss this though, but privilege is not as apparent as one may seem or think.



#377
The Heretic of Time

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"Men are a genetic mistake" is a sickening distortion of biology, born from the belief that men and women are somehow instrinsicly different on an uninfluenced, reproducable level.

 

First half of your sentence is true, second half is not. Men and women being biologically different is obviously not a belief but a fact.



#378
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No, not gonna happen. Chalk it up to bad experience.

Why so hesitant?

 

You told us to avoid reading history books by men, ok then why? 


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#379
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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First half of your sentence is true, second half is not. Men and women being biologically different is obviously not a belief but a fact.

Women have wombs, men have beards; these aren't beliefs.
"My gender" is superior at math/management/empathy, etc. These are beliefs.

Forgive me for not explaining the obvious.

You told us to avoid reading history books by men, ok then why?


That is in no way what I said. You're being disingenuous.
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#380
Battlebloodmage

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Women have wombs, men have beards; these aren't beliefs.
"My gender" is superior at math/management/empathy, etc. These are beliefs.

Forgive me for not explaining the obvious.


That is in no way what I said. You're being disingenuous.

Women can grow beard. They could also have penis. Then again, men with defect to 5 alpha reductase which prevent the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone would also have female part on the outside until they hit puberty.

 

Humans are confusing.

 

Xa3xUQU.gif



#381
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That is in no way what I said. You're being disingenuous.

Yeah umm....

Read a history book not written by a man.

Unless there is a hidden meaning here, you pretty much told us to avoid history books written by men or at the very least stongly implied.

 

Again, why?


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#382
The Heretic of Time

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Women have wombs, men have beards; these aren't beliefs.
"My gender" is superior at math/management/empathy, etc. These are beliefs.

Forgive me for not explaining the obvious.

 

Alright. It wasn't so obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

Truth be told though, men do seem to have a bit more of a knack for math than women, while women seem to be better as language. Whether this is a biological thing or just because most women don't care about math and most men don't care about language is unknown to me (if I have to guess, it probably just boils down to men and women in general having different interests).



#383
Battlebloodmage

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Alright. It wasn't so obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

Truth be told though, men do seem to have a bit more of a knack for math than women, while women seem to be better as language. Whether this is a biological thing or just because most women don't care about math and most men don't care about language is unknown to me (if I have to guess, it probably just boils down to men and women in general having different interests).

As a pre-med student, there is no correlation between gender and the ability to do math or learn language. If anything, maybe it has more to do with different interests formed from being a part of a certain culture. In many Asian countries, many females do very well in math and even better than a lot of male peers. 


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#384
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World War 2. He was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, given authority to be the Commander and Chief of their armed forces.

 
Churchill is not a good example for this. He participated in strategic decision-making, but as the leader of what was ultimately a secondary member of the United Nations, and many of his most famous strategic decisions were bad. To take the Second World War as an example, Churchill's focus on the 'soft underbelly' of Europe - the Mediterranean littoral, one of the most mountainous regions on the continent and a tertiary theater at best - was probably detrimental to the Allied war effort. His focus there was probably a combination of bad strategic logic and a focus on British influence and empire-building to the detriment of the Allied cause.

Churchill also exhibited poor strategic decision-making while First Lord of the Admiralty in the First World War. His bureau was poorly run, with few systemic processes and a great deal of personal conflict between himself and his military colleague, Sir John Fisher, the First Sea Lord. The efficiency losses due to this personality conflict and management failure undoubtedly inflated British losses and weakened the Royal Navy's performance in the war. He indulged in bizarre political theater at the expense of sound and sane management when he attempted (and failed) to personally lead the Royal Marines to the rescue of Antwerp in the fall of 1914. And the Dardanelles expedition, though responsibility for it does not rest solely on his shoulders, was an expensive catastrophe with virtually no chance of meaningful success.

These are not solely my opinions. Many historians have stated them before me. Hew Strachan, a relatively sympathetic historian who also served as a general officer in the British Army (and is now one of the foremost authorities on the Great War), concurs with much of the literature of the last several decades on Churchill's management skills. Naval historians like Stephen Sondhaus and Paul Halpern have much the same to say about Gallipoli. And condemnations of Churchill's "soft underbelly" strategy have been emanating from America since 1942.

Obviously, British forces under Churchill's ultimate authority secured numerous military successes, especially in the Second World War. But, as Ridwan points out, it's not clear that victories like Alam el Halfa or Imphal can be laid at Churchill's feet rather than those of the British commanders and soldiers who actually participated in those engagements.
 

So practically every historical and military scolar is wrong? Okay then.
But fine, I'll use another example from World War 2: Joseph Stalin. Go on, tell me how he didn't lead the Soviet forces.

 
Stalin, however, is a much better example.

No one can deny that Stalin's position of military leadership in the Soviet Union was active and thoughtful. He led the Stavka and did not merely preside over it; all critical military decisions ultimately went through him. More than any national leader of the war - save perhaps Jiang Jieshi - Stalin involved himself in the nuts and bolts of military command.

Many of the war's poorest military decisions can be laid at his feet. Throughout the first several years of the war, Stalin repeatedly misjudged the combat power of the Wehrmacht after a defeat and rashly ordered counterattacks far too early. His orders badly overextended Red Army forces time and again, leaving them vulnerable to German ripostes - at Smolensk in the first months of the war, then again during the winter counteroffensive of 1941-42, again at Izyum in the spring of '42, at Third Kharkov in '43. He and Zhukov developed a monomaniacal fixation on the German Army Group Center that cost the Soviet Union dearly: in 1942, they devoted most of the Red Army's mobile units to defend the approaches to Moscow, leaving the southern front poorly defended just in time for a massive German attack, and in the winter of that same year, Stalin authorized and supported Zhukov's MARS and JUPITER offensive that turned into one of the USSR's greatest military disasters of the war. And all this came on the heels of his decision to gut the Red Army's officer corps shortly before the war broke out with his purges.

But Stalin also made many more decisions that turned out much better. He weeded out poor commanders and backed good ones. The Stavka and high command he built, by 1945, possessed a crop of superb leaders: Vasilevsky, Rokossovsky, Katukov, Malinovsky, Purkayev, Meretskov...even Zhukov and Konev. Several of these men had been purged before the war; Stalin brought them back, because he recognized and needed their skills. In a more specifically military sense, Stalin reinforced success rather than failure on the front lines, too. He did not throw good money after bad (especially after 1942); offensives that had petered out were ended, while successful ones were lavished with more troops, arms, and supplies. He also provided a moral effect that, like much leadership, cannot be quantified in a meaningful sense. It is hard to imagine the resistance that the Soviet Union offered in 1941 and 1942 without Stalin's presence.
 

Because, this debate started about military leaders. None of the people you mentioned are conventional military leaders other than the rank their offices automatically gave them by default or that they assigned themselves. They're the Steve Jobs of WW2. Telling their generals to win the battles, and they do it, but they get the credit.


One could make the same complaint about generals; rarely do they personally participate in the battles that their troops win for them, and subordinate leaders do most of the work of creating the plans that are actually implemented.

But anyway. Being physically fit is hardly a requirement for military skill. One could look at actual army commanders with the same critical eye. For example, until recently, it was customary for many higher-ranking generals to be very old and still exercise command of their forces. King Wilhelm I, who commanded the Prussian army in the war of 1866 and the united German forces in 1870-71, was aged 69 when he won the Battle of Königgrätz, and 73 at Gravelotte-St. Privat and Sedan. By the time of the Wars of Unification, he was not a young man nor a particularly fit one; this is a period painting of him at Sedan accepting the French surrender. Wilhelm was present on the field for all of the great battles of those wars, and physically participated at Gravelotte-St. Privat by riding into a mob of retreating troops, whacking them with the flat of his sword and swearing at them to return to their posts. Never mind that he would be utterly helpless in a wrestling match with the average Imperial Army grognard.

Hell, if I went back in time to 1944, I could probably destroy Vasilevsky or Marshall (or Eisenhower, or Zhukov...) in any physical-fitness contest you care to name. And those were only the guys most responsible for winning the biggest war in human history, so, yeah.

Nowadays, it's rare to find soldiers, even high-ranking commanders, in quality Western militaries that aren't physically fit, let alone people who, ah, let themselves go. Part of that is down to regulations and peer-pressure, and part of it is down to the inculcation of the idea of the general remaining a soldier regardless of rank and grade, and part of it is down to a general modern recognition of the value of physical fitness.

But it'd be ridiculous to expect the likes of H.R. McMaster or James Everard to be able to match pull-ups or five-mile run times with staff sergeants, let alone spar with Mayweather or Rousey. They're more fit than the majority of the population, and they're probably above-average even for their respective militaries, but their jobs don't involve being meatheads. Usually, the idea is that the Old Man - or, y'know, Woman - can show that s/he's "still got it", but that's a long way from being an Olympian.

So it's preposterous to say that the difference in peak physical condition between the strongest men and the strongest women would have any bearing at all on the suitability of women for higher command. It's just not a relevant factor.
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#385
The Heretic of Time

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As a pre-med student, there is no correlation between gender and the ability to do math or learn language. If anything, maybe it has more to do with different interests formed from being a part of a certain culture. In many Asian countries, many females do very well in math and even better than a lot of male peers. 

 

Hence I said I believe that it can be chalked up to different interests.



#386
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Alright. It wasn't so obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

Truth be told though, men do seem to have a bit more of a knack for math than women, while women seem to be better as language. Whether this is a biological thing or just because most women don't care about math and most men don't care about language is unknown to me (if I have to guess, it probably just boils down to men and women in general having different interests).

"Chief author Janet Hyde, a professor of psychology and women's studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says the meta-analysis involved looked systematically at 242 articles that assessed the math skills of 1,286,350 people from 1990 to 2007.

 

Hyde and colleagues looked at students in grade school to college and beyond. A second portion examined the results of several large, long-term scientific studies, including the National Assessment of Educational Progress. The meta-analysis, published in the journal Psychological Bulletin, finds in both cases, the difference in math skills between the two sexes was so small as to be meaningless. Nonetheless, teachers and parents often guide girls away from math-heavy sciences and engineering classes, Hyde says."

 

Anecdotally, my wife was encouraged to study languages at high school as Maths was considered too hard for girls (this was quite a long time ago). She's now a professional accountant.


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#387
SnakeCode

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"Chief author Janet Hyde, a professor of psychology and women's studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, says the meta-analysis involved looked systematically at 242 articles that assessed the math skills of 1,286,350 people from 1990 to 2007.

 

Hyde and colleagues looked at students in grade school to college and beyond. A second portion examined the results of several large, long-term scientific studies, including the National Assessment of Educational Progress. The meta-analysis, published in the journal Psychological Bulletin, finds in both cases, the difference in math skills between the two sexes was so small as to be meaningless. Nonetheless, teachers and parents often guide girls away from math-heavy sciences and engineering classes, Hyde says."

 

Major red flag right there.


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#388
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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Yeah umm....

Unless there is a hidden meaning here, you pretty much told us to avoid history books written by men or at the very least stongly implied.

Again, why?


"A book", singular. It was borderline hyperbole.
As for the why. Think on it. I'm confident it'll occur to you.

Alright. It wasn't so obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

Truth be told though, men do seem to have a bit more of a knack for math than women, while women seem to be better as language. Whether this is a biological thing or just because most women don't care about math and most men don't care about language is unknown to me (if I have to guess, it probably just boils down to men and women in general having different interests).


It was possibly my fault for being so brief.

And it is definitely true that interests sway learning. It is a well-documented statistic and known among phycologists that women are more likely to be interested in people and men more likely to be interested in things. These are however absolutely not rules, myself being evidence. When I was younger I was quite good at math, but I'm much more interested in people, thus I never developed my math skills beyond what was needed to pass my grades.

Boys are also more likely to be pushed into the ‘things’ field, even if it’s not their interest, and girls more likely to be ‘people’ people, even if it is not their interest. There’s also an unfortunate amount of unintentional pressure put on boys to excel in “boy things”, and the accomplishments of girls are by-and-large unacknowledged. Parents are likely to say their son is the best at everything, even if he’s statistically average, and their daughter is average, even if she is excelling.

I can source these if you want, but I see no reason to do your googling for you.

#389
The Heretic of Time

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"Nonetheless, teachers and parents often guide girls away from math-heavy sciences and engineering classes, Hyde says."

 

Tinfoil hat nonsense. Not once have I seen teachers or parents guide girls away from math-heavy sciences, unless these individual women indeed sucked at math.


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#390
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Tinfoil hat nonsense. Not once have I seen teachers or parents guide girls away from math-heavy sciences, unless these individual women indeed sucked at math.

 

It reminds of how these same people blame alleged "diseases"  for why there's so much obesity in America. It's always somebody or something else's fault, never the personal shortcomings of the person(s) involved.

 

Tin foil hat nonsense indeed.


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#391
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"A book", singular. It was borderline hyperbole.
As for the why. Think on it. I'm confident it'll occur to you.

You have the burden of proof, you made the assertion but you have not explained the reason, why is that?


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#392
Nomen Mendax

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Tinfoil hat nonsense. Not once have I seen teachers or parents guide girls away from math-heavy sciences, unless these individual women indeed sucked at math.

I edited my post to include this: my wife was encouraged to study languages at high school as Maths was considered too hard for girls (this was quite a long time ago). She's now a professional accountant. My guess is that this kind of thing happens a lot less now than it used to back then. I don't know how old you are but the world now is a lot different from how it was thirty or forty years ago.


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#393
JoeTheQuarian

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Bioware has some of the best female characters in there games ever. So I'm not going to complain about it.


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#394
The Heretic of Time

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I edited my post to include this: my wife was encouraged to study languages at high school as Maths was considered too hard for girls (this was quite a long time ago). She's now a professional accountant. My guess is that this kind of thing happens a lot less now than it used to back then. I don't know how old you are but the world now is a lot different from how it was thirty or forty years ago.

 

I'm 26 years old.

Maybe things were different back then, maybe not. I don't know. What I do know is that my father is a physics teacher and at the end of the 2nd year he has to give his students a recommendation on whether they should continue taking his classes, take major in physics, or drop his classes altogether. Most of the time he recommends the male students to continue taking his classes, while he recommends his female students to drop his classes altogether. My dad has been accused of sexism a couple of times, but the truth is, my father is absolutely not a sexist, far from it, and my mother and his female colleagues can vouch for that.

So why then, does he turn down most female students while encouraging most male students? Simple, because most of his female students barely have passing grades, while most of his male students do really well in his class.

 

My dad said: "If you're barely passing basic physics 101 then obviously you're not going to excel at it. Most girls in my class don't seem to particularly enjoy my classes and don't really show a greater interest in physics. Obviously I'm going to give those girls a negative recommendation and recommend them to drop physics. Most of these girls don't even care, they seem perfectly happy to drop physics. It's often their parents who take objection to my negative recommendation. And I always tell these parents that if their daughter wishes to continue taking physics classes anyway, she's free to do so, but don't blame me if she fails her tests at advanced physics because I did warn her that it might be too hard for her."


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#395
AlanC9

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To take the Second World War as an example, Churchill's focus on the 'soft underbelly' of Europe - the Mediterranean littoral, one of the most mountainous regions on the continent and a tertiary theater at best - was probably detrimental to the Allied war effort. His focus there was probably a combination of bad strategic logic and a focus on British influence and empire-building to the detriment of the Allied cause.


Minor quibble: the alternatives to going into the Med don't look all that plausible either.
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#396
AlanC9

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I don't enjoy privileges though, as a straight white male. For instance lets say I can get married to whoever I want. Is this a privilege I hold over gay men? No. It's not. Being treated fairly is not a privilege. It is, or should be, standard behaviour.  All so called privileges that I am claimed to have are along those lines. Noone is jumping for the chance to provide me service that noone else is getting. Noone cares about me or my gender or my skin colour. They care about making a sale, or whether I can get a job done.
 


Thing is, being treated fairly is a privilege if other people aren't being treated fairly. Your treatment is better than the average treatment.
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#397
LoneWolf3905

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I'm 26 years old.

Maybe things were different back then, maybe not. I don't know. What I do know is that my father is a physics teacher and at the end of the 2nd year he has to give his students a recommendation on whether they should continue taking his classes, take major in physics, or drop his classes altogether. Most of the time he recommends the male students to continue taking his classes, while he recommends his female students to drop his classes altogether. My dad has been accused of sexism a couple of times, but the truth is, my father is absolutely not a sexist, far from it, and my mother and his female colleagues can vouch for that.

So why then, does he turn down most female students while encouraging most male students? Simple, because most of his female students barely have passing grades, while most of his male students do really well in his class.

 

My dad said: "If you're barely passing basic physics 101 then obviously you're not going to excel at it. Most girls in my class don't seem to particularly enjoy my classes and don't really show a greater interest in physics. Obviously I'm going to give those girls a negative recommendation and recommend them to drop physics. Most of these girls don't even care, they seem perfectly happy to drop physics. It's often their parents who take objection to my negative recommendation. And I always tell these parents that if their daughter wishes to continue taking physics classes anyway, she's free to do so, but don't blame me if she fails her tests at advanced physics because I did warn her that it might be too hard for her."

 

 

 

Why do these girls even take Physics if they don't even really care for it?

 

Is it some quota thing collages do?



#398
The Heretic of Time

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Why do these girls even take Physics if they don't even really care for it?

 

Is it some quota thing collages do?

 

Not so much a gender quota but more so that college students have to pick a minimum amount of classes and for some reason a lot of girls (but also guys) pick physics even though they don't really care for it.



#399
Nomen Mendax

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I'm 26 years old.

Maybe things were different back then, maybe not. I don't know. What I do know is that my father is a physics teacher and at the end of the 2nd year he has to give his students a recommendation on whether they should continue taking his classes, take major in physics, or drop his classes altogether. Most of the time he recommends the male students to continue taking his classes, while he recommends his female students to drop his classes altogether. My dad has been accused of sexism a couple of times, but the truth is, my father is absolutely not a sexist, far from it, and my mother and his female colleagues can vouch for that.

So why then, does he turn down most female students while encouraging most male students? Simple, because most of his female students barely have passing grades, while most of his male students do really well in his class.

 

My dad said: "If you're barely passing basic physics 101 then obviously you're not going to excel at it. Most girls in my class don't seem to particularly enjoy my classes and don't really show a greater interest in physics. Obviously I'm going to give those girls a negative recommendation and recommend them to drop physics. Most of these girls don't even care, they seem perfectly happy to drop physics. It's often their parents who take objection to my negative recommendation. And I always tell these parents that if their daughter wishes to continue taking physics classes anyway, she's free to do so, but don't blame me if she fails her tests at advanced physics because I did warn her that it might be too hard for her."

That's interesting - although Maths isn't Physics. Looking quickly at the American Institute of Physics the percentage of women taking undergraduate physics degrees is hovering around 20%.

 

There are a lot of fields where women are under-represented. The interesting question is why. I wouldn't rush to say it was genetic, and the stats about male and female abilities at Maths are (I think) widely accepted, although it's worth noting that there is a higher number of men at both the left and right tails of the distribution. Your point about interest is valid - although again that leads to why.



#400
Daemul

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I'm 26 years old.

Maybe things were different back then, maybe not. I don't know. What I do know is that my father is a physics teacher and at the end of the 2nd year he has to give his students a recommendation on whether they should continue taking his classes, take major in physics, or drop his classes altogether. Most of the time he recommends the male students to continue taking his classes, while he recommends his female students to drop his classes altogether. My dad has been accused of sexism a couple of times, but the truth is, my father is absolutely not a sexist, far from it, and my mother and his female colleagues can vouch for that.

So why then, does he turn down most female students while encouraging most male students? Simple, because most of his female students barely have passing grades, while most of his male students do really well in his class.

 

My dad said: "If you're barely passing basic physics 101 then obviously you're not going to excel at it. Most girls in my class don't seem to particularly enjoy my classes and don't really show a greater interest in physics. Obviously I'm going to give those girls a negative recommendation and recommend them to drop physics. Most of these girls don't even care, they seem perfectly happy to drop physics. It's often their parents who take objection to my negative recommendation. And I always tell these parents that if their daughter wishes to continue taking physics classes anyway, she's free to do so, but don't blame me if she fails her tests at advanced physics because I did warn her that it might be too hard for her."

 

I normally avoid threads like this since they seem like massive bait, but this post reminded me of back in my High School days when I did Computing and Physics and how when we got to a certain stage in my time there, girls just stopped taking the subjects completely. 

 

There wasn't any sinister plan to discourage girls not to take to subjects, on the contrary, it was heavily encouraged. In my school it was compulsory for everyone to take Computing and one science in 3rd and 4th year, with 5th year and 6th year being the only years which you could focus on you wanted, so when we got to 5th year, to the dismay of my teachers, all the girls dropped Physics and Computing like hotcakes and went to focus on other stuff, leaving the classes to become your typical STEM sausagefest.

 

It was really weird to see, and I didn't understand it until after I talked to some of the girls who had been in my class to get the reason why they all left and they all said they had only done the subjects because they had to and that they never found them interesting, which was true tbh. But man, having no girls around got old real quick lol


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