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[The Heretic of Time]

Gynophobia is predominantly the condition that afflicts Men’s Rights Activism. It is rampant with misogynist apologists. There is nothing about the laughably produced videos such as the ones provided that I can take seriously.

The only Men’s Rights Activist I’ve ever seen who I could actually take seriously was, perhaps ironically, a woman. And even she fell off the deep end constantly with sweeping statements and fictional claims.

Also, because you're curious.

 

I wanted to write a witty reply to this comment, but honestly, the amount of stupidity, falsehoods and plain ridiculousness in this comment of yours leaves me unable to come up with anything clever. All I can do is stare and think: "she did NOT just say all of that, all in 1 comment, did she?"

 

It is clear that you have very strong dogmatic beliefs and any evidence to the contrary will automatically be handwaved with ridiculous unfounded statements, like "oh that's MRA nonsense, and MRAs are stupid because...".

It was fun while it lasted, but this conversation has more than just jumped the shark with this comment of yours, so I'm out. Cheers.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

I wanted to write a witty reply to this comment, but honestly, the amount of stupidity, falsehoods and plain ridiculousness in this comment of yours leaves me unable to come up with anything clever. All I can do is stare and think: "she did NOT just say all of that, all in 1 comment, did she?"
 
It is clear that you have very strong dogmatic beliefs and any evidence to the contrary will automatically be handwaved with ridiculous unfounded statements, like "oh that's MRA nonsense, and MRAs are stupid because...".

It was fun while it lasted, but this conversation has more than just jumped the shark with this comment of yours, so I'm out. Cheers.

 
Hah! You think I'm a woman. That's cute.
 
I pointed out two observable facts and a note concerning my exposure. Where did I lose you?

[Former_Fiend]

I think the general point of JAZZ's post, that Seboist was responding to with that video, is that there tends to be a greater suspension of disbelief given for men when presented with a significant gap in size and muscle mass. Take a fairly well built guy, like Kratos, put him up against a guy that absolutely dwarfs him, like Hercules, and even though a single punch from Hercules should collapse Kratos, the suspension of disbelief allows us to buy Kratos winning that fight. Comparatively, you take a woman in incredible physical shape, put her up against a man in good physical shape that's got an obvious size advantage, there's some outcry.

 

Ignoring for a minute that Kratos and Hercules are a bad example - while the physical difference between them borders on comical, they're divine beings, so it's really more a question of Kratos having a higher "power level", as it were; still, there are plenty of good examples throughout fiction, David vs Goliath being a classic trope - I'm not entirely sure the bias is particularly strong outside of certain niche demographics.

 

At least, I don't recall people complaining about Black Widow beating up men in the Avengers movies, or Catwoman beating up men in The Dark Knight Rises. Though on the other hand, some people were up in arms over Mad Max: Fury Road. 

 

Still, it does seem to be something largely limited to video gaming audiences where we complain about immersion. For example, there are always those who complain about the size of female models in the dragon age games - personally I agree that they could do with being more athletic - but, going back to Origins, it's kind of ridiculous that we think the human or dwarf males are, based solely off the models, any more capable of tackling an ogre to the ground than a female elf is. Yes, there's an obvious difference in muscle mass between them, but in comparison to the ogre, that difference is negligible. In a perfectly realistic game, none of the pc's would be able to physically take one down the way we do, or be able to tank a blow from one. But the females are the ones being called out for it. 

[The Heretic of Time]

 
Hah! You think I'm a woman. That's cute.
 
I pointed out two observable facts and a note concerning my exposure. Where did I lose you?

 

You lost me when you decided not to address any points raised in the video I linked, but instead went off on a rant about MRAs and how "gynophobia" is supposedly the driving force behind MRAs. As if that has anything to do with the video I linked anyway. 

And which observable facts have you pointed out? I haven't seen any facts whatsoever in your post, just unfounded assumptions and BS.

[Xaijin]

The people outcrying at Fury Road were the same people saying the film should be made by the original director, and Ron White has said all about that ever need be uttered.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=QDvQ77JP8nw

[LoneWolf3905]

Ya know. I've often hopped that in the future. Cybernetics would end the whole " Which gender is stronger " debate. And put a end to the whole gender war that's been raging for who knows how long. 

 

 

But maybe it's simply wishful thinking. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Ya know. I've often hopped that in the future. Cybernetics would end the whole " Which gender is stronger " debate. And put a end to the whole gender war that's been raging for who knows how long. 

 

 

But maybe it's simply wishful thinking. 

 

There is no real debate, only people who are delusional and don't accept the fact that men are physically more capable than women are having a "debate".

[Hadeedak]

Eh. There's plenty of exceptions to the 'rule' men are more physically capable than women -- humans are annoyingly variable.

 

I'm personally stronger and generally more physically capable than some men who are less active than me in my community, and I'm not a freak. In the space future with space cybernetics, I'm sure plenty of 'exceptions' will show up, and certainly shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

Though I don't get the impression this is "PFAHAH, femPC is ridiculous" or "There should be no ranking female NPCs!", so brace. I'm going to make a controversial statement. 

 

"There should sure be a few women and a few men in our background NPCS!"

 

Whew, I'm done.

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah, I think a lot of us have let this thread and this discussion get away from us. I'm certainly guilty of that.

 

The original post was asking for some of the high ranking human characters to be women. Not even most of them, just more than have been featured thus far.

 

In and of itself that isn't an unreasonable request. Then we got bogged down with the rest of this nonsense.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

You lost me when you decided not to address any points raised in the video I linked, but instead went off on a rant about MRAs and how "gynophobia" is supposedly the driving force behind MRAs. As if that has anything to do with the video I linked anyway.

And which observable facts have you pointed out? I haven't seen any facts whatsoever in your post, just unfounded assumptions and BS.

The video is a carefully written script played over anecdotal footage to design a narrative that validates a world-view I've observed to be flawed and in almost every way, anti-woman. The ideology is not too dissimilar from the regrettable part of the feminist spectrum, albeit inverted: misogyny playing the victim.
 

I think the general point of JAZZ's post, that Seboist was responding to with that video, is that there tends to be a greater suspension of disbelief given for men when presented with a significant gap in size and muscle mass. Take a fairly well built guy, like Kratos, put him up against a guy that absolutely dwarfs him, like Hercules, and even though a single punch from Hercules should collapse Kratos, the suspension of disbelief allows us to buy Kratos winning that fight. Comparatively, you take a woman in incredible physical shape, put her up against a man in good physical shape that's got an obvious size advantage, there's some outcry.

Yeah, that bit.

Just recently in the Inquisition boards the topic came up. Same as always. "Women can't because reasons!"

But anyway, I think that's about enough internet for me.

[Andrew Lucas]

Ha, the old 'more women there and more women here'. It's never enough, there's always something more, despite the trilogy having a diverse cast of important women spread all around the races, yet, it's not enough. Make a female god, a female ship, a female race (Oops), and whatever else that can be womanized cause representation.

Entertain me.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

There is only one way to solve this dispute.

Ladies and Gentlemen please make your way to the Thunderdrome.

[General TSAR]

Good morning gents (got to love graveyard shifts), has he answered the why yet to his previous assertion or is he just beating around the bush? 

 

(Reads post about Gynophobia)

 

Lulwut?

[The Heretic of Time]

Interesting anecdote. Perhaps your dad might consider re-evaluating his differing expectations of students based on gender, and consider whether his teaching style is effective for all of his students.

He doesn't have differing expectations of students based on gender. He's not a sexist.

And my dad's teaching style is fine. He's a very patient man willing and able to explain a subject multiple times in multiple different ways if the students don't get it the first time.

Hell, I remember one of his female students visiting him twice a week to get extra private lessons because she really wanted to become better at physics. And he did this completely pro bono, he didn't ask her to pay him. And before you start thinking filthy stuff, no, he was not having an affair with her.

[LoneWolf3905]

There is only one way to solve this dispute.

Ladies and Gentlemen please make your way to the Thunderdrome.

 

 

I feel as if the Thunderdome should be it's own reality tv show.

[Hadeedak]

I did pretty well with physics 121... But I was just taking it for my sed strat class. Rocks for life. I totally bombed my first calculus class, though. And I got asked to leave a social science class for being excessively cynical (what do you mean, we don't have empirical evidence?). Neither were my brightest moments. Alas.

 

ANOTHER CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT INCOMING: A variety of factors contribute to grades and success for any one individual. Gender is probably not the strongest determinant. Culture and early education does a lot for interest levels in various subjects. So does individual predilection! 

[Lady Artifice]

Last thing for me, at least tonight. I generally avoid talking about my politics online, though I will discuss academic issues. I've never even called myself a feminist on the BSN, though I have been assigned that label often enough. I don't necessarily object to it, but I do find it amusing that it's an assumption made about me in response to my using very basic academic terms such as "patriarchy." 

 

I think, I certainly hope, that this is a case of some misunderstanding of just how basic the phrase "patriarchy" is. On an academic level, patriarchy is the term for a wide array of societal standards, even as simple and common a system as one where biological descent is traced through the male line. There have also been matriarchal societies, and I would discuss those as readily as I would nearly any other, generally without praise or condemnation. To assume that the application of the word "patriarchal" carries with it some inherent political or social agenda is to ignore its' basic definition. 

 

It's necessary to avoid confusing the recognition of patriarchy with an agenda to oppose patriarchy. A person can, and they often do, recognize patriarchy as a historical reality without being a feminist, because applying the word properly just means that you're passably aware of historical terminology, nothing more. In order to be a feminist, one must also believe in the social, economic, and political equality of the sexes. 

 

And with that, I'm for bed.

[KaiserShep]

Well, for the OP, I'd say that what would really serve well for this sort of thing would to have at least one or two female central cast members as a high ranking official of some sort. It doesn't really matter what the percentages are in the organizations themselves, because a story is only ever going to focus on a paltry few of them anyway. Like, if Admiral Hackett was a woman, there's no real point in any arguments about the military being predominantly male. It's only one person. 

[Ahglock]

That's something I've notice , so in my imaginary Mass Effect film trilogy, Admiral Hackett is played by Jodie Foster.

I was going to use Hackett as my example. But outside of voice actor how would Hackett change by being female?

As far as I can tell not at all. So wtf would I care. Given that our population break down is roughly 50/50 if a significant divergence from that is in the background characters they should probably step back and ask why? Does the gender of these characters matter for the story and if not can some be changed.

It's a quick way to look at things but doesn't need to be used for everything. There likely wouldn't be any non traditional love interests if you used % ideas across the board. If the cost too add is low enough add all the options you can.

Side note. I didn't notice all people in power in DA:I were female. Which I'm fine with. If the setting is a matriarchy that's how it should be. Similarly if the setting is a patriarchy the leaders should be male.

[Youknow]

The significant admirals, the ambassadors, the possible councillors, pretty much any human who Shepard might be expected to treat as a superior or an equal have almost all been men.  This bugs me, can we have it be different in ME:A please?  Or if the intent is for this to be a reflection that human society is still sexist in the 22nd century, which would be depressing but plausible, then it would be nice if this was acknowledged in universe.

 

Exceptions I can think of are Spacer Shepard's mother and one of the 3 admirals who get blown up at the start of ME3.  And I gather there was a woman Ambassador in the books?  But that's still pretty minor compared to people such as Udina, Hackett, Anderson and TIM, as well as the more minor but still high ranking figures like President Huerta, Admiral Mikhailovich and Ambassador Osoba

I know I'm late to the party, but.. Why? Why does this bother you? It's just a thing here. The admirals that Shep runs into happen to be male. How is it sexism that Sheperd just so happened to run into male officers? Should I be bothered that Sheperd doesn't have an Asian commander and claim discrimination? 

 

I fear the day I ever complete any novel or video game in this day in age. Too many female characters! Too many males! Not enough races! Ugh. We should just have stories about blobs. But wait! I bet people would complain about the color of the blobs then. Why are there so many BLUE blobs!? People find the strangest reasons to be bothered. 

[Ahglock]

Last thing for me, at least tonight. I generally avoid talking about my politics online, though I will discuss academic issues. I've never even called myself a feminist on the BSN, though I have been assigned that label often enough. I don't necessarily object to it, but I do find it amusing that it's an assumption made about me in response to my using very basic academic terms such as "patriarchy."

I think, I certainly hope, that this is a case of some misunderstanding of just how basic the phrase "patriarchy" is. On an academic level, patriarchy is the term for a wide array of societal standards, even as simple and common a system as one where biological descent is traced through the male line. There have also been matriarchal societies, and I would discuss those as readily as I would nearly any other, generally without praise or condemnation. To assume that the application of the word "patriarchal" carries with it some inherent political or social agenda is to ignore its' basic definition.

It's necessary to avoid confusing the recognition of patriarchy with an agenda to oppose patriarchy. A person can, and they often do, recognize patriarchy as a historical reality without being a feminist, because applying the word properly just means that you're passably aware of historical terminology, nothing more. In order to be a feminist, one must also believe in the social, economic, and political equality of the sexes.

And with that, I'm for bed.

It's a fairly loaded term. Sure you can talk about it on a academic level and as far as I can tell you have expressly limited yourself to that. But I am fairly sure you also know it's used far far more often in other ways that are less benign. Basically academic vs how used in almost every other form of media. It is far more often used as a political term for most people.

[Ridwan]

Reaction time and memory tend to fade in advanced age. And I imagine morality plays a factor in it, too.

 

And I'm not saying that physical fitness isn't at all important, but it's still a point of fitness, not perfection. A female soldier in good physical with the physical enhancements that come with human combatants in ME is going to be able to fireman-carry a male soldier in full combat gear just fine. It isn't about being the best, it's about being good enough to get the job done. 

That's funny, when I was in the army the girls couldn't even do normal push ups and were allowed to take their gear off. While us guys had to do it with full combat gear on. They also didn't fireman carry one cause they couldn't do it. 

 

You lot really do live in some bizarro world where you think women are just as strong as men. 

[Hrulj]

It would allow Bioware to more consistently portray a future where there is equality of opportunity between the sexes, which I believe is their intent for the setting. Or if it is not their intent, then they can follow my other suggestion and include dialogue that reflects the lack of opportunity for women at the very top of human society, which I think would also improve the quality of world building.

It is hardly the most crucial matter, but it doesn't have to cost anything to 'fix', so I thought it worth bringing up.

Why involve such issues in a video game? Why isnt it possible that the opportunities are the same, and that men are simply signing up/pasing the bottom line more? Equal opportunity world is still not a world of 50-50 employment between genders in all fields.

Just a small example. Lets say we remove sexism from boxing and men are fighting women etc...

Most champions would still be men, because of basic biology - ie, greater upper body strenght, up to 60% and 40% greater lower body strenght. Punching woman in the breasts while boxing will be extremely painful for her, while punching a man might cause damage but nowhere close to the pain female would feel when hit in the same spot. So lets please not condemn everything as sexism

[Hrulj]

That's funny, when I was in the army the girls couldn't even do normal push ups and were allowed to take their gear off. While us guys had to do it with full combat gear on. They also didn't carry one cause they couldn't do it. 

 

You lot really do live in some bizarro world where you think women are just as strong as men. 

As a former soldier I can confirm this. Females in the army have lower physical standards. 

[Former_Fiend]

That's funny, when I was in the army the girls couldn't even do normal push ups and were allowed to take their gear off. While us guys had to do it with full combat gear on. They also didn't fireman carry one cause they couldn't do it. 

 

You lot really do live in some bizarro world where you think women are just as strong as men. 

 

That is not what I said. 

 

What I said is that the krogan and the geth don't give a hot damn how many push ups a human can do. However much stronger a male soldier is than a female soldier, all the nasty things out there in the galaxy that want to kill us are even stronger than the male. 

 

So it doesn't matter if the female soldier is physically capable of beating the male soldier in hand to hand combat. All that matters is whether or not she's physically capable of dragging the male soldier's unconscious body to safety after he tries hand to hand on an angry krogan.