930 réponses à ce sujet

[Sully13]

Why is this even a thing?

[Sartoz]

I've never said it makes a fun game by itself.  I've said it makes a slightly better game.  And I haven't asked for 50-50.

 

Do you think that having more high ranking women (military or civilian) would make for a worse game? How?

 

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Honestly, the proposition of who is who and who can do what is irrelevant in a game  How more or less of one gender adds to the game depends on the story.

 

That's how I see it.  I read many books and what leaves an impression on me is the character(s), story and pacing not how many females in positions of power were portrayed in them.  Same goes for MEA. Though Bio has an opportunity to throw us a curve ball or two with the new alien races. 

 

The game is all about you the protagonist. You can be either male or female. Everything else is a supporting plot device to move the story along.  

[Sully13]

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Honestly, the proposition of who is who and who can do what is irrelevant in a game  How more or less of one gender adds to the game depends on the story.

 

That's how I see it.  I read many books and what leaves an impression on me is the character(s), story and pacing not how many females in positions of power were portrayed in them.  Same goes for MEA. Though Bio has an opportunity to throw us a curve ball or two with the new alien races. 

 

The game is all about you the protagonist. You can be either male or female. Everything else is a supporting plot device to move the story along.  

You iz Feministing wrawng.

[SnakeCode]

I've never said it makes a fun game by itself.  I've said it makes a slightly better game.  And I haven't asked for 50-50.

 

Do you think that having more high ranking women (military or civilian) would make for a worse game? How?

 

I don't think that's necessarily the case, it depends on the setting. The Witcher 3 wouldn't be a better game with more female monarchs, nobility, or high ranking women in the various armies. In fact, I think it would actively detract from the world that Sapkowski and CDPR have managed to build. It would make the powerful women we do meet (Ciri, The Lodge of Sorceresses etc) feel less important and less special for having risen to relative power in a male dominated world.  

 

Like I said earlier in the thread though, for most games adding more powerful highly ranked female characters wouldn't make much of a difference to many players. Only players with a vested interest in it would notice and feel some self gratification, for many it wouldn't affect or change the game at all. So I don't think it would make the game "better" for most players.

[Wulfram]

I don't think that's necessarily the case, it depends on the setting.

 

I'm not talking about every setting, I'm talking about Mass Effect.

 

Settings with historical or even modern day attitudes towards gender would of course be different.

[Sully13]

Thing is how do you do anything without being heavy handed?

[Hadeedak]

Why is this even a thing?

 

Oversimplifying various statements to the point of absurdity and a little nose tweaking.

 

But anyway, in regards to making characters without being heavy-handed is USUALLY something Bioware's pretty good at. There's a lot of characters who I don't feel are the token black guy, token girl, token old person, token quarian,  whatever. 

 

There's some exceptions, but as long as they stick to what they do, I think they'll be fine.

[Sully13]

No argument here. But of youre making a character ONLY to make a point.. well you tend to get a crappy product. Look at the Wonder Woman "Mansplaining thing." or the recent Girl she is a girl girl Super girl female woman..XX chromosone girl.. pilot.. girl.. she is a girl.

No one should have a problem whoth high ranking females. They exist already.  

[Heathen Oxman]

I don't think that's necessarily the case, it depends on the setting. The Witcher 3 wouldn't be a better game with more female monarchs, nobility, or high ranking women in the various armies. In fact, I think it would actively detract from the world that Sapkowski and CDPR have managed to build. It would make the powerful women we do meet (Ciri, The Lodge of Sorceresses etc) feel less important and less special for having risen to relative power in a male dominated world.  

 

Like I said earlier in the thread though, for most games adding more powerful highly ranked female characters wouldn't make much of a difference to many players. Only players with a vested interest in it would notice and feel some self gratification, for many it wouldn't affect or change the game at all. So I don't think it would make the game "better" for most players.

 

I agree.

 

However, I never got the impression that the ME universe was especially male-dominated, despite the lack of female representation among alien species.

 

Depending on how you play, FemShep is the first human to be recruited in the most elite group of military operatives in the entire galaxy, and, if Ashley lives, she's the second human to be recruited into the galaxy's most elite group of military operatives.  That means they got promoted ahead of every single male human, which is pretty good.  Not to mention, that little scene where FemShep spars with Vega, or when MaleShep punches a female reporter, tends to imply that ME's gender politics are a lot more egalitarian than ours.

 

As for there not being more visible human women in the Alliance, personally, based on my time in the military, I'm accustomed to the armed forces being a sausage-fest and being the only women surrounded by a bunch of dudes, so I never really noticed.

[FKA_Servo]

No one should have a problem whoth high ranking females. They exist already.  

 

And yet, here's page after page of posters twisting themselves into knots about why they don't, and why they shouldn't.

 

Tuesday on the BSN.

[Sully13]

Yep. But here is the rub. I tend to come to these .. ahem oh so serious political things to laugh.

Mostly at both sides.

[FKA_Servo]

Yep. But here is the rub. I tend to come to these .. ahem oh so serious political things to laugh.

 

Well, sometimes that's all you can do.

[In Exile]

I don't think that's necessarily the case, it depends on the setting. The Witcher 3 wouldn't be a better game with more female monarchs, nobility, or high ranking women in the various armies. In fact, I think it would actively detract from the world that Sapkowski and CDPR have managed to build. It would make the powerful women we do meet (Ciri, The Lodge of Sorceresses etc) feel less important and less special for having risen to relative power in a male dominated world.  

 

Fiction isn't so much about raw numbers as it is about the time spent. Look at the Iorveth path arc in Act 2 - we spend a fair amount of time with Saskia and Phillipa. Women don't make up a lot of the powerful in the world as a whole, but for the purpose of that story arc, they certainly drive it. When people talk about representation, that's what they typically mean.

[Danny Boy 7]

Why is this even a thing?

Because apparently merely requesting something that can be ignored or just not seen is a heinous campaign against developers, gaming and fans alike.

 

Seriously this thread could have been three posts long, but some people think its their job to refute or defend any given point.

[Lady Artifice]

And yet, here's page after page of posters twisting themselves into knots about why they don't, and why they shouldn't.
 
Tuesday on the BSN.

Is it funny, or sad?

I...I can't tell anymore.

[Jaquio]

In DA:I, the Inquisition council was three women and one man (Cassandra, Leliana, Morrigan* and Cullen).

 

The Divine was a woman (as always).

 

The ruler of Orlais was a woman.

 

The ruler of Thedas in vanilla (without Keep interference) is a woman.

 

Men served the story only to be power-mad villains - Corypheus, Gaspard, Lucius, Samson, Wolf-Boy, etc.  Heck, our first introduction to Lucius is him physically striking a woman.  Yes I recognize that Calpernia is a woman and a villain, but they make pains to show that she's misguided and good at heart rather than simply evil (she wants to free the slaves!).  They give none of the male villains that sort of depth.  And in the end you can get her to turn away from her evil path.

 

But you know what?  Who cares?!  It served the storyline and it was perfectly fine.  As long as the characters are well thought out, these things even out in the end.  But when you start saying "we need a character with background X to balance out our diversity" then you're making token characters to check off boxes and the quality of the narrative is what suffers in the end.

[Former_Fiend]

Is it funny, or sad?

 

Yes.

[CuriousArtemis]

Because apparently merely requesting something that can be ignored or just not seen is a heinous campaign against developers, gaming and fans alike.

 

Seriously this thread could have been three posts long, but some people think its their job to refute or defend any given point.

 

This post seemed so dead on obvious, summing up the contentious drivel that IS the BSN, and I had to read it twice b/c I was surprised to find it on the BSN and in the ME forum of all places. Then I looked and saw it was you, Danny Of course!

[Panda]

In DA:I, the Inquisition council was three women and one man (Cassandra, Leliana, Morrigan* and Cullen).

 

The Divine was a woman (as always).

 

The ruler of Orlais was a woman.

 

The ruler of Thedas in vanilla (without Keep interference) is a woman.

 

Men served the story only to be power-mad villains - Corypheus, Gaspard, Lucius, Samson, Wolf-Boy, etc.  Heck, our first introduction to Lucius is him physically striking a woman.  Yes I recognize that Calpernia is a woman and a villain, but they make pains to show that she's misguided and good at heart rather than simply evil (she wants to free the slaves!).  They give none of the male villains that sort of depth.  And in the end you can get her to turn away from her evil path.

 

But you know what?  Who cares?!  It served the storyline and it was perfectly fine.  As long as the characters are well thought out, these things even out in the end.  But when you start saying "we need a character with background X to balance out our diversity" then you're making token characters to check off boxes and the quality of the narrative is what suffers in the end.

 

Some corrections..

 

Inquisitor's council had 3 women and one man, but those women were Cassandra, Leliana and Josephine. Morrigan comes along in the end and gives advices, but she's not really member of council. I think this was balanced by having 6 squadmates who are men (if Cole is counted) and 3 woman, half more men than women. Especially when squadmates are the one's you have around you most of the time. As whole inner circle had 7 men and 5 women.

 

Gaspard is no more villain than Celene is, but I guess that is up to player to decide.

 

Agreed that there is more male villain's than female villains around.

 

I don't think situation of DAI is as one-sided as some made it be though and it's also how you want to look at things. Although there is more male villains, they are all important characters in the game and in position of the power.

[Battlebloodmage]

In DA:I, the Inquisition council was three women and one man (Cassandra, Leliana, Morrigan* and Cullen).

 

The Divine was a woman (as always).

 

The ruler of Orlais was a woman.

 

The ruler of Thedas in vanilla (without Keep interference) is a woman.

 

Men served the story only to be power-mad villains - Corypheus, Gaspard, Lucius, Samson, Wolf-Boy, etc.  Heck, our first introduction to Lucius is him physically striking a woman.  Yes I recognize that Calpernia is a woman and a villain, but they make pains to show that she's misguided and good at heart rather than simply evil (she wants to free the slaves!).  They give none of the male villains that sort of depth.  And in the end you can get her to turn away from her evil path.

 

But you know what?  Who cares?!  It served the storyline and it was perfectly fine.  As long as the characters are well thought out, these things even out in the end.  But when you start saying "we need a character with background X to balance out our diversity" then you're making token characters to check off boxes and the quality of the narrative is what suffers in the end.

Briala and Celene are both potential rulers, countering Gaspard. Even with more male companions, I feel like that one who benefit the most out of it still the straight women consider they have 2 extra LIs. The whole religion in Thedas is revolved around female Jesus. Males are more often the bad guys as you said. 

 

The way I see it. If you think ME is male centric and don't think DA is female centric. Equality can be about wanting equal treatment, but it can also be about the power grab between different groups who have different objections and wants. Those who are part of the favored group wouldn't see as much disparity regardless of how small. It could also go the other way where the dominant group complain about losing some of their privilege and see it more than what it is. I love how many people pissed over comic books changing races when in movies, minorities were changed to white in adaptations every year.

 

I'm actually ok with seeing more females in the game. It's a power fantasy afterall. Females can be as strong as male in fiction. They could explain away with enhancement and such. It's no more suspension of disbelief than a guy who can kill 100 guys by himself. I would want them to include females because the characters they want to create is female, not to fill in some quota. Personally, the creators should be aware of the race and gender of the characters, but at the same time, shouldn't feel forced to change their vision. 

[Fredward]

Since the OP is asking for more and not a perfect 50/50 split, this is centuries in the future and the military doesn't solely exist of shooting things (especially not a diversified intergalactic military) I really don't see why not.

[Sully13]

This post seemed so dead on obvious, summing up the contentious drivel that IS the BSN, and I had to read it twice b/c I was surprised to find it on the BSN and in the ME forum of all places. Then I looked and saw it was you, Danny Of course!

Have you seen the female Link thread? Lol

[Jaquio]

Agreed that there is more male villain's than female villains around.

 

I don't think situation of DAI is as one-sided as some made it be though and it's also how you want to look at things. Although there is more male villains, they are all important characters in the game and in position of the power.

 

I would disagree with some points in your earlier statement, but it's not really that important.  The point of my statement wasn't that there are too many women in positions of power, but merely that sometimes through character writing, imbalances occur.  Dictating character stories through demographic distribution rather than organic creativity is stifling.

 

But, I will say that BW seems afraid of writing female villains.

 

In fact, I can only think of three serious female villains of the top of my head in DA and ME:  Matriarch Benezia, Calpernia, and Branka.  And two of those come with caveats.  Benezia is affected by Sovereign's mind control, and Calpernia is a freer of slaves who is duped by Corypheus and can be turned against him in the end.

 

(I recognize that in true forum style, someone will be like "well actually" and list someone I forgot about).

 

The only female villain who is a villain by her own right (though you can still agree to work with her) is Branka.   I think that may be due, in large part, to the fact that Branka was actually written by a female writer (Jennifer Hepler).

 

Briala and Celene are both potential rulers, countering Gaspard. Even with more male companions, I feel like that one who benefit the most out of it still the straight women consider they have 2 extra LIs. The whole religion in Thedas is revolved around female Jesus. Males are more often the bad guys as you said. 

 

The way I see it. If you think ME is male centric and don't think DA is female centric. Equality can be about wanting equal treatment, but it can also be about the power grab between different groups who have different objections and wants. Those who are part of the favored group wouldn't see as much disparity regardless of how small. It could also go the other way where the dominant group complain about losing some of their privilege and see it more than what it is. I love how many people pissed over comic books changing races when in movies, minorities were changed to white in adaptations every year.

 

I'm actually ok with seeing more females in the game. It's a power fantasy afterall. Females can be as strong as male in fiction. They could explain away with enhancement and such. It's no more suspension of disbelief than a guy who can kill 100 guys by himself. I would want them to include females because the characters they want to create is female, not to fill in some quota. Personally, the creators should be aware of the race and gender of the characters, but at the same time, shouldn't feel forced to change their vision. 

 

I agree that ME has more of a male focus and DA has more of a female focus.  And I wouldn't mind seeing more women in positions of power, and even as villains.  I just don't think creating characters by numbers makes for as engaging of a story.  I think rather than saying "we need more women characters," they should be working to bring in more diverse writers.  To my knowledge, the only female writer they've brought in to ME was Feketekuty in ME3, but all she did was write for a character that already existed (Liara).

[Wulfram]

 

But, I will say that BW seems afraid of writing female villains.

 

In fact, I can only think of three serious female villains of the top of my head in DA and ME:  Matriarch Benezia, Calpernia, and Branka.  And two of those come with caveats.  Benezia is affected by Sovereign's mind control, and Calpernia is a freer of slaves who is duped by Corypheus and can be turned against him in the end.

 

(I recognize that in true forum style, someone will be like "well actually" and list someone I forgot about).

 

The only female villain who is a villain by her own right (though you can still agree to work with her) is Branka.   I think that may be due, in large part, to the fact that Branka was actually written by a female writer (Jennifer Hepler).

 

Well actually...  Meredith, final boss of DA2? Of course, she went crazy because of red lyrium.

Grand Duchess Florianne is pretty much just plain evil, though.  

There's also quite a few in the various recruitment and loyalty missions of ME2 IIRC.

[FKA_Servo]

Well actually...  Meredith, final boss of DA2? Of course, she went crazy because of red lyrium.

Grand Duchess Florianne is pretty much just plain evil, though.  

There's also quite a few in the various recruitment and loyalty missions of ME2 IIRC.

 

Mother Petrice still sticks in my craw.