930 réponses à ce sujet

[Battlebloodmage]

Well, sure, but when gender is ultimately irrelevant to the role (what would change if the illusive man was the illusive woman?), there's a real question there as to why the writers keep wanting to write male characters when maleness isn't required. It's not about "enforcing" diversity, but rather about asking why a caste is not diverse. Of course, not everyone will agree whether a cast is or isn't diverse, and I tend to be of the view that it's not about numbers but showcasing. This is why, for example, DAO is actually open to criticism re: gender, because despite the world having a great deal of ostensibly powerful women, we rarely meet them.

If there are a lot of male high ranked, then it would be a concern but when there are only a few human high ranked like Udina, Anderson, Hackett in the military. If you want to include a terrorist leader as one then 4. It seems even more weird to barely see any Asians when more than half the world's population are Asians. As I stated, this argument is not about equality but about "representation for my group". IMO, the game is made under the assumption that characters are just characters, some of the leaders are females. I don't think the thought that "female aliens don't count" cross their head when making the game. 

[In Exile]

If there are a lot of male high ranked, then it would be a concern but when there are only a few human high ranked like Udina, Anderson, Hackett in the military. If you want to include a terrorist leader as one then 4. It seems even more weird to barely see any Asians when more than half the world's population are Asians. As I stated, this argument is not about equality but about "representation for my group". IMO, the game is made under the assumption that characters are just characters, some of the leaders are females. I don't think the thought that "female aliens don't count" cross their head when making the game. 

 

It's not about how many there are in the military. It's a fake world. We have no idea what the Alliance Parliament looks like. It could be 85% female politicians. Doesn't matter, because we don't see them. Who we do see in military leadership roles are - apart from Mama Shepard, who we only hear - dudes. There really aren't even female aliens apart from the Quarians and Asari. And notice how you don't hear this complaint about the Quarians? Part of it is tied to Tali, and part of it is tied to the composition of the Admiralty board and who features in it a lot.

 

It's absurd to want to keep a 50-50 tally. No one is asking for that. The issue is just that when it becomes a consistent pattern - and everyone we meet happens to have a penis, then there's a question about why that's the case. There's no need for any of those people to be dudes. They just happen to be dudes.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's not about how many there are in the military. It's a fake world. We have no idea what the Alliance Parliament looks like. It could be 85% female politicians. Doesn't matter, because we don't see them. Who we do see in military leadership roles are - apart from Mama Shepard, who we only hear - dudes. There really aren't even female aliens apart from the Quarians and Asari. And notice how you don't hear this complaint about the Quarians? Part of it is tied to Tali, and part of it is tied to the composition of the Admiralty board and who features in it a lot.

 

It's absurd to want to keep a 50-50 tally. No one is asking for that. The issue is just that when it becomes a consistent pattern - and everyone we meet happens to have a penis, then there's a question about why that's the case. There's no need for any of those people to be dudes. They just happen to be dudes.

The leaders of salarian and Asari are female. Tali could potentially be an Admiral, Eve is the co-leader with whoever in charge, Liara is the shadow broker and in charge of the crucible, Ashley is the spectre as well as the lieutenant commander, Shepard's mom also is a high ranking members, Aria is the ruler of Omega and has many people under her commands. 

 

 

No, I don't see any problem with ME, just as I don't see a problem with DAI.

 

 

 

As I said, I don't think they think of gender to be different from race when creating characters. There are plenty of women in power. If the next game, they want to have more female humans then go ahead. It should be because it's something they want to, not because they're being forced to by the fans.

[In Exile]

The leaders of salarian and Asari are female. Tali could potentially be an Admiral, Eve is the co-leader with whoever in charge, Liara is the shadow broker and in charge of the crucible, Ashley is the spectre as well as the lieutenant commander, Shepard's mom also is a high ranking members, Aria is the ruler of Omega and has many people under her commands. 

 

No, I don't see any problem with ME, just as I don't see a problem with DAI.

 

It's not about who is a leader, like I've said many times. In fact, in every single post on this page. It's about how often we see that leader. We see Councilor Telos for, what, 3 minutes? 4? Compared to Anderson, Udina, or Hackett? We see the Dalatress for, what 2 minutes? Shepard's mom - even when she appears - doesn't even have a character model.

 

What about Wrex? Mordin? The Salarian Councilor, who we see more than the Dalatress? All the Turian Generals? The Illusive Man? (As mentioned, Anderson/Udina/Hackett?)

 

ME doesn't feature a lot of women, but it doesn't want to portray a particularly gender segregated world. That's where you get into the issue. Again, I point to Act 2 of TW2 (on Iorveth's path). That is a setting that's sexist. But Act 2 spends a fair amount of time on women, who are central to the plot.

 

Feel free to disagree with me that how much time we spend on a character matters. And feel free to disagree, that ME3 does spend enough time. But listing characters isn't a response to my post. Or even to the thread topic, which is about the number of human women (hence your shifting the goalposts, I'd wager).

[Battlebloodmage]

It's not about who is a leader, like I've said many times. In fact, in every single post on this page. It's about how often we see that leader. We see Councilor Telos for, what, 3 minutes? 4? Compared to Anderson, Udina, or Hackett? We see the Dalatress for, what 2 minutes? Shepard's mom - even when she appears - doesn't even have a character model.

 

What about Wrex? Mordin? The Salarian Councilor, who we see more than the Dalatress? All the Turian Generals? The Illusive Man? (As mentioned, Anderson/Udina/Hackett?)

 

ME doesn't feature a lot of women, but it doesn't want to portray a particularly gender segregated world. That's where you get into the issue. Again, I point to Act 2 of TW2 (on Iorveth's path). That is a setting that's sexist. But Act 2 spends a fair amount of time on women, who are central to the plot.

 

Feel free to disagree with me that how much time we spend on a character matters. And feel free to disagree, that ME3 does spend enough time. But listing characters isn't a response to my post. Or even to the thread topic, which is about the number of human women (hence your shifting the goalposts, I'd wager).

"really aren't even female aliens apart from the Quarians and Asar"

 

You were the one who mentioning female aliens, so I'm just proving you that quite a few of them are females and leaders on top of that. I'm just bringing it up because while there may not have been a lot of females, but they appear, a lot of them are leaders. As I stated before, I don't think the writers separate race and gender when writing the characters, and characters are just characters to them.

 

I thought this is about equality, not how often we see them. Seeing as how the OP wants a more equal world in the future. That was some of the point she made earlier. I would argue some of the people I mentioned had a lot of presence in the game. A lot of them are squadmates as well.

 

What's the point of mentioning those people? You said it yourself that it's not about 50/50 ratio, when there are quite a number of female leaders. Is it about number now? 

 

As I said, if there are more female humans, cool, but write the female humans because it was what they intended, not because of PC.

[KAGEHOSHI-]

I don't really agree with the idea of doing it for the sake of doing it.

 

It's the military. It's a predominantly male field. It always has been, and it likely always will be. The reason? Not nearly as many women join the military as much as men do. Hence, you're more likely to get high ranking men than you are women.

 

It seems like false egalitarianism and inclusiveness to put so many women at so many levels. It's arbitrary.

Awful excuse.

 

Mass Effect is far from realistic (the aliens for example are essentially human in terms of speech, senses, emotions, and even appearance in many cases), and it takes place in a society in the far future -- it is completely within the realm of possibility that women could become just as big a part of the military as men in such a future (especially given how tech and augmentation dwarfs the importance of physical strength).

 

Secondly, these suggested positions are not all military; politicians, and ambassadors for example are just some examples of high ranking influential positions that aren't military.

 

Not every single field needs to necessarily have an equal amount of both sexes, but terms overall (as in averaged from all fields) number of high-ranking individuals from both sexes, there is no reason not to strive for equality. 

 

EDIT: As for why it should be done. Our media effects our attitudes about many things; by showing some aspects of society and social interactions, media helps to normalize it in the minds of the consumers. Achieving that kind of equality in the game, likely won't have a large effect on social attitudes within the world (not on its own at least), but the effects won't be zero, and it wouldn't negatively impact the game to do this.

[In Exile]

"really aren't even female aliens apart from the Quarians and Asar"

 

You were the one who mentioning female aliens, so I'm just proving you that quite a few of them are females and leaders on top of that. I'm just bringing it up because while there may not have been a lot of females, but they appear, a lot of them are leaders. As I stated before, I don't think the writers separate race and gender when writing the characters, and characters are just characters to them.

 

I thought this is about equality, not how often we see them. Seeing as how the OP wants a more equal world in the future. That was some of the point she made earlier. I would argue some of the people I mentioned had a lot of presence in the game. A lot of them are squadmates as well.

 

What's the point of mentioning those people? You said it yourself that it's not about 50/50 ratio, when there are quite a number of female leaders. Is it about number now? 

 

As I said, if there are more female humans, cool, but write the female humans because it was what they intended, not because of PC.

 

First off, you brought up female aliens:  "I don't think the thought that "female aliens don't count" cross their head when making the game."

 

My point - regarding the quarians and asari - was only in response to your point. I said there weren't female aliens - as in actual models - apart from quarians and asari. It's only in ME3 when that more than doubles (in vanilla, thanks to Eve and the Dalatress). So even if they do count, well, again, we have a question as to why e.g. the developers decided we needed new races in terms of Drell and Vorcha, vs. character models for female Krogan and Turians.

 

I don't think writers separate gender and character either, but as I said repeatedly, when their non-separation leads to a male-centric cast where all the leads are men, then there's a question to be asked there: why? If there's no reason for those characters to be men, why do they find themselves writing, primarily, men?

 

The point of mentioning those people - the point of talking about screentime - is to show that, notwithstanding that ME3 more than doubled the actual existence of female aliens, it didn't do much for giving them greater screentime.

[Battlebloodmage]

I could say the same thing about DAI, but I guess your mind is made up anyway. Let's just stop here.

[Steelcan]

I kind of want to see a truly patriarchal alien culture.

 

Asari and Salarians are matriarchal (by default for one and by culture for the other), Turians and Humans are meritocracies, one with a militant focus the other as an egalitarian democracy, the Rachni are based around Queen also matriarchal, Volus are a merchant economy in which neither gender is said to have an upper hand on political power over another (same with Hanar, Vorcha and Elcor though as a theocracy based on the Protheans the Hanar are more likely to have some weird style)

 

The krogan are the closest it cuts, but ME2/3 show us that females have their own (powerful) clan structure and are also preservers of culture, then there's female battle masters such as the one killed at Canrum which wield power much like Eve says only male krogan do.

 

So that leaves krogan under Wreav with the genophage cured as the only one. 

 

Perhaps the Turian Heirarchy is more patriarchal than others due to their association with more traditionally "masculine" roles, and if so I'd like to see it in action.  And note that I don't ask this out of being sick of seeing female characters or anything,  BioWare has shown that they want to have egalitarian and matriarchal societies in the ME'verse, I just want to see what their depiction of something in the other direction might look like.

[Lady Artifice]

I kind of want to see a truly patriarchal alien culture.

 

Asari and Salarians are matriarchal (by default for one and by culture for the other), Turians and Humans are meritocracies, one with a militant focus the other as an egalitarian democracy, the Rachni are based around Queen also matriarchal, Volus are a merchant economy in which neither gender is said to have an upper hand on political power over another (same with Hanar, Vorcha and Elcor though as a theocracy based on the Protheans the Hanar are more likely to have some weird style)

 

The krogan are the closest it cuts, but ME2/3 show us that females have their own (powerful) clan structure and are also preservers of culture, then there's female battle masters such as the one killed at Canrum which wield power much like Eve says only male krogan do.

 

So that leaves krogan under Wreav with the genophage cured as the only one. 

 

Perhaps the Turian Heirarchy is more patriarchal than others due to their association with more traditionally "masculine" roles, and if so I'd like to see it in action.  And note that I don't ask this out of being sick of seeing female characters or anything,  BioWare has shown that they want to have egalitarian and matriarchal societies in the ME'verse, I just want to see what their depiction of something in the other direction might look like.

 

I might dig it, especially if they can manage to express the complicated nature of an outside society with a gender bias without needing to entirely demonize it. Bioware is usually pretty good at not oversimplifying cultural portrayals.

 

With a few exceptions. 

[SmilesJA]

In DA:I, the Inquisition council was three women and one man (Cassandra, Leliana, Morrigan* and Cullen).

 

The Divine was a woman (as always).

 

The ruler of Orlais was a woman.

 

The ruler of Thedas in vanilla (without Keep interference) is a woman.

 

Men served the story only to be power-mad villains - Corypheus, Gaspard, Lucius, Samson, Wolf-Boy, etc.  Heck, our first introduction to Lucius is him physically striking a woman.  Yes I recognize that Calpernia is a woman and a villain, but they make pains to show that she's misguided and good at heart rather than simply evil (she wants to free the slaves!).  They give none of the male villains that sort of depth.  And in the end you can get her to turn away from her evil path.

 

But you know what?  Who cares?!  It served the storyline and it was perfectly fine.  As long as the characters are well thought out, these things even out in the end.  But when you start saying "we need a character with background X to balance out our diversity" then you're making token characters to check off boxes and the quality of the narrative is what suffers in the end.

 

I disagree with you on the account of Samson because even though he did some heinous things, he did have sympathetic reasons to do so.

[Mr_Q]

I'm happy with Mass Effect as it is. What's more important is the quality of female characters, not quantity. 

[GrandioseSeagull]

Why do some of you guys automatically assume that when a character is not a straight white male they were made to fulfill some quota for diversity? Like, I get the whole "make the character interesting, not (blank) for the sake of being (blank)" but it seems to me some of you perceive that "(blank)" as a reason to not take that character seriously. "Why did they HAVE to be (blank)?"  Why not? The human race is full of diversity now and I assume in the future of mass effect it'd be the same or even more diverse. 

[Mr_Q]

Why do some of you guys automatically assume that when a character is not a straight white male they were made to fulfill some quota for diversity? Like, I get the whole "make the character interesting, not (blank) for the sake of being (blank)" but it seems to me some of you perceive that "(blank)" as a reason to not take that character seriously. "Why did they HAVE to be (blank)?"  Why not? The human race is full of diversity now and I assume in the future of mass effect it'd be the same or even more diverse. 

 

If anyone it's the Bioware writers who aren't serious about such characters. During an interview Patrick Weekes (DAI lead writer) stated that Krem from DAI was one of most 'inspiring' things he has seen in gaming because Krem is transgender. That's pretty much it. Beyond that I didn't find Krem very inspiring. Quite mediocre in my view. That's what concerns me, diversity being used as an excuse by writers to produce second rate characters that satisfy diversity advocates but, not gamers such as myself interested in intriguing characters. 

 

http://forum.bioware...patrick-weekes/

 

It's already started happening in Dragon Age, I don't want the same here. 

[SmilesJA]

That being said I don't mind having a high ranking female officers, as long as they're well developed.

[Panda]

If anyone it's the Bioware writers who aren't serious about such characters. During an interview Patrick Weekes (DAI lead writer) stated that Krem from DAI was one of most 'inspiring' things he has seen in gaming because Krem is transgender. That's pretty much it. Beyond that I didn't find Krem very inspiring. Quite mediocre in my view. That's what concerns me, diversity being used as an excuse by writers to produce second rate characters that satisfy diversity advocates but, not gamers such as myself interested in intriguing characters. 

 

http://forum.bioware...patrick-weekes/

 

It's already started happening in Dragon Age, I don't want the same here. 

 

Well I think exact quote is this: "Creation of #Krem by @Bioware was one of the most inspiring things Patrick had ever seen in gaming". Creation here can also mean the process of creating Krem that is inspiring to him than the character itself or transness of character.

 

Personally I think Krem is fine, fits to the job he's designed for, Iron Bull's lieutenant who gives some information about Tevinter. Not that mindblowing as character, but side-characters rarely are.

 

Though in general I think best is to have things like sexuality, being trans and race just as character traits than them being main point of the character unless the character's story is about sexuality, being trans or her/his race.

[In Exile]

If anyone it's the Bioware writers who aren't serious about such characters. During an interview Patrick Weekes (DAI lead writer) stated that Krem from DAI was one of most 'inspiring' things he has seen in gaming because Krem is transgender. That's pretty much it. Beyond that I didn't find Krem very inspiring. Quite mediocre in my view. That's what concerns me, diversity being used as an excuse by writers to produce second rate characters that satisfy diversity advocates but, not gamers such as myself interested in intriguing characters. 

 

http://forum.bioware...patrick-weekes/

 

It's already started happening in Dragon Age, I don't want the same here. 

 

Yeah, people who take this position don't have a leg to stand on. C'mon: offer an actual justification for why Krem is a "second rate character". Do it by comparison, with a "first rate character" who isn't a companion (or advisor, in DA:I). Use any Bioware game you want. Let's see it. Let's hear about these "intriuiging characters". Because until you actually articulate a position, I'm going to say you've got an ulterior motive for adopting it.

[Mr_Q]

Yeah, people who take this position don't have a leg to stand on. C'mon: offer an actual justification for why Krem is a "second rate character". Do it by comparison, with a "first rate character" who isn't a companion (or advisor, in DA:I). Use any Bioware game you want. Let's see it. Let's hear about these "intriuiging characters". Because until you actually articulate a position, I'm going to say you've got an ulterior motive for adopting it.

 

So you're assuming that I'm being disingenuous? That's not very nice. Quite offensive actually. Attacking my character just because you 

disapprove of my viewpoint. I'm not providing you with any justification for my opinion until you retract that disrespectful statement first. 

[Lady Artifice]

So you're assuming that I'm being disingenuous? That's not very nice. Quite offensive actually. Attacking my character just because you 

disapprove of my viewpoint. I'm not providing you with any justification for my opinion until you retract that disrespectful statement first. 

 

He was agreeing with you. 

[Wulfram]

That being said I don't mind having a high ranking female officers, as long as they're well developed.

There's room for many characters who aren't well developed in the game, both male and female.

I'm not sure even Hackett and Udina really count as a well developed, they essentially exist to serve a role in the plot, and they do that more by being archetypal than having much to their character.

[Former_Fiend]

*cough*Divine*cough*

 

This is about presence of female leaders. It shouldn't matter if the Divine or the Asari leader can only be females.

 

In theory the Divine could be a man - or the Black Divine could be a woman. It would be the kind of radical shift that would shake the Chantry to it's core, but it's possible.

 

The asari on the other hand are physically incapable of having male leadership unless they were to appoint their leadership roles to members of other species. I'd grant you an asari in command of a group that consists of multiple species would qualify as a notable female leader, but asari leaders in asari society are a situation where that is the only way it can be. 

[Mr_Q]

He was agreeing with you. 

 

Was he? My deepest apologies to In Exile if that's the case. A complete misunderstanding on my behalf if that's the case. 

[mickey111]

just like real life, they must put forward the best man for the job regardless of sex.

 

[DuskWanderer]

How boring that people could ask for brilliant dialogue and nuance and only care that they be the special group of people

[Battlebloodmage]

In theory the Divine could be a man - or the Black Divine could be a woman. It would be the kind of radical shift that would shake the Chantry to it's core, but it's possible.

 

The asari on the other hand are physically incapable of having male leadership unless they were to appoint their leadership roles to members of other species. I'd grant you an asari in command of a group that consists of multiple species would qualify as a notable female leader, but asari leaders in asari society are a situation where that is the only way it can be. 

Let's not talk about theory here. As it stands, only female leaders for the Divine. DA developers would never change the divine into a male, seeing as how the game is made as a matriarchal society, and their ideology in general. 

 

That besides the point, we're talking about female representation in high ranking roles. It's the presence of high command roles held by females. Anyway, if you don't think Asari counts then go ahead and keep thinking that. We can't all agree on everything.