930 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

It is a safe bet that the hospitality, tourism, education and whatever other industries there are favoring the female gender know what they're doing because companies who are bad at their work don't last long enough to give the rest of the industry any bad ideas. In short: natural selection.

But the most this can prove is that the market rewards certain hiring practices. The tastes of your consumers are market realities even if they're not rational.

[Mr_Q]

The reason I asked to stay away from DAI is that, ultimately, this is the ME:A board and I would think we should stay on-topic regarding the ultimate subject matter. As for the ulterior motive accusation, well, you only need to look at the political context of where a term such as "diversity character" developed to see why I would look quite sceptically on anyone who uses the term.

 

This is only by way of explanation. I do very much appreciate that you took the time and energy to write out a thoughtful post. While, ultimately, I disagree with you on the writing part of Krem (I actually also didn't find him to be interesting; I just don't think he's second rate. To me, Scout Harding is the single most boring character I've ever encountered in a video-game, but that doesn't mean I think she's "second rate" or that being boring - to me - makes a character second rate.)

 

My reply is in spoilers (and lengthy):

 

Spoiler

As Pasquale1234 points out, the IB is a companion. He's a "focal" character, who has his own arc and a great deal of resource dedicated to his development. Krem isn't mean to be a standalone character. He's meant to be a side-character in the IB's personal story. Krem isn't meant to be someone important, like Alexius or Gaspard. He's meant to be a character on the level of, say, Dagna or Scout Harding. Actually, his most comparable character is Varric's Bianace, and IMO he's a better character than her.

 

As I explained above, Krem's role - from a literary perspective - is to provide a foil to the IB. He's also a bit of an exposition machine, and that's tied with his experience with the Chargers (to give them a face, when we get to the personal quest choice for the IB) and to provide background on why he's an exile and outcast too.

 

I think, however, it's completely misreading and misappreciating Krem to say: "Krem doesn't have an unbending personal ambition of Solas where his desire is to restore the Elven people to their former glory and retain his godhood, even if it means giving an orb of power to a megalomaniac such as Corypheus." Krem - to be only person who he can be - chose to risk Tevinter prison to express his identity. This willingness to stand up to authority is the direct contrast to the IB, who - when he has doubts - surrenders himself for re-education. Krem is meant to be the brave contrast to the IB's - at least in his early part of his narrative arc - cowardice.

 

Let me put it differently: Krem is meant to provide us with a different perspective on the IB, in the same way that the IB - from a lore perspective - is meant to provide us with a different perspective on the Qun. The Qun is all about identity: who you are is what you are, everything that defines your worth without allowing you to choose that for yourself. Krem is someone who -in virtue of his gender identity - is someone who has been defined his entire life on who other people believe him to be without being allowed to choose that for himself. Identity - whether it's gender identity or something else entirely - is at the core of the IB's story and the IB is part of that arc.

 

I can't argue with you that you didn't find Krem interesting. Like I said, interesting is subjective. Though to me it sounds like you primarily find supernatural characters (you list Flemeth and Cole) interesting. My post was really confrontational, and for that I apologize. But I think Krem is a first rate character concept that - ultimately - isn't well executed in practice by PW. But he's a "first rate" character concept because of how closely he ties in thematically with the IB's personal story. Look at the final quest:

 

When the IB sacrifices the chargers, he's broken. He's never fit in with the Qun, he's always chaffed under it (see how every time he talks about the Qun coming, unlike Sten from DA:O, he looks at it like a horrible disaster, that will wash away and crush this society in Southern Thedas he's come to love). That's the opposite of the choice that Krem makes, and to make that choice he has to sacrifice Krem.

 

The problem with the execution is that Krem ends up basically being the IB's morality pet (to use the TV tropes term) and is a bit of an exposition machine, but to look at Krem as somehow being there to fill a quota misses the richness not just of his character, but the IB's own character. 

 

Yeah from that perspective I can see what you believe he is well written. I should confess, in the multiple playthroughs I've had in DAI never saw Krem in such a manner, probably because I lacked the critical eye to see it.  

 

Spoiler

I very much like the point you raised on how Iron Bull and Krem represent different sides of the same coin in some respects. The Iron Bull appears to be strong individual by virtue of the fact that he is a Qunari yet as you state, internally, he shows cowardice and arguably weakness as a character since he is a follower a religious doctrine that strips away all of one's individuality. Whereas Krem, who is weaker physically to Iron Bull but actually internally has the fortitude and determination to stand up and be an individual for themselves irrespective of what anyone else thinks of their sexual identity. It's symbolic, especially the aspect you mention on the sacrifice that Iron Bull makes should he side with the Qunari during his personal quest, that opportunity to become a free and independent Qunari dies with Krem something that Krem had advocated and battled for throughout their entire lifetime.

 

So after considering your analysis, you have convinced me that Krem is a character with a greater purpose and meaning to the Iron Bull's character development and as a character in their own right, no doubt about that. For that, I thank you.

[AlanC9]

I'm a published writer. I know quite a bit about the writing world. Can you say the same?

If you're going to make that claim, you should back it up. What have you published?

(It's not a very good argument anyway, but if you're going to play it you ought to play it all the way.)

[Helios969]

More high ranking human women please.

[Lady Artifice]

Gee, it seems we're right back to the idea of the only permissible thinking allowed is thinking to nod in agreement with a study, covered up by a veil of how 'perfectly entitled' people are to be ignorant to hide from the obvious flip-flop.
"It's not cool to think things unless you're here to nod in agreement with a study. But it actually is cool. But it's not cool because that's ignorant. But it's actually cool because you're 'perfectly entitled to be ignorant."

Equating independent thought with ignoring evidence. Come on, Puncher.

[DuskWanderer]

If you're going to make that claim, you should back it up. What have you published?

(It's not a very good argument anyway, but if you're going to play it you ought to play it all the way.)

 

One publication credit I have listed is an anthology known as Unclaimed Baggage. Check it out on Amazon.

[BabyPuncher]

Equating independent thought with ignoring evidence. Come on, Puncher.

Yes, if you had been paying attention, that was precisely what I was condemning. The ridiculous notion that any sort of independent thought about people or the world was 'ignoring evidence' and therefore stupid.

Thank you for your agreement that equating the two things is indeed stupid. Pity you directed it to the wrong person.

[DuskWanderer]

"Interesting" is a subjective standard, by definition. But it takes striking ignorance of the character to suggest that Krem's story is tied in with "diversity" (which, for whatever reason, you seem to be using as a pejorative), beyond the fact that this is what PW chose as his basis for being an outcast. First, to address your ignorance of the character:

Spoiler

1. I have to imagine that by "mythos" you actually mean "theme". Bull's Chargers have a simple theme: they are all social outcasts. Krem is a social outcast in the same way that the other chargers are outcasts. It's yet another reflection of how Bull struggles with his own identity: that's why, specifically, Krem is the "face" for the Chargers. Bull doesn't know who he is (which, in the Qun, is everything). Krem, no matter everything else, knows exactly who he is identity-wise. Your ignorance of the basic character theme of Iron Bull is foundantional to your criticism.
2. By "mythos", you might mean lore. Krem substantially expans the lore on Tevinter, in four ways. First, Krem provides the only human commoner perspective we have ever had on Tevinter life (apart from Fenris and his sister, both of whom were slaves and elves). Second, we are told a great deal about Tevinter military organization. Third, we learn that the Tevinter military has clear gender distictions. Fourth, we learn about Tevinter (martial) criminal law. He has a great deal to say about Tevinter society, and he's our direct contrast to Dorian's "life is great for the lower classes, or at least not much worse than here." That's his second and important role.
3. Krem's story has nothing but drama and adventure. He met the IB while fleeing from the Tevinter military, in a huge tavern brawl. He's had multiple adventures with the Chargers, tells you about all of them. He's our window into the Bull's chargers before Bull's personal quest. In fact, before his reveal, he's not but an exposition machine about the chargers. Let's recout his story:
a. We have touching memories about Krem and his dad.
b. We have his mother telling him that he has to marry, or his family will be in dire straights.
c. We have Krem following his dream to pursue military service.
d. We have the way he's demeaned and betrayed, and how he ends up on the run.

Second, as for what Weekes says, well, let me introduce a writer as great as you to a small concept from literary criticism (peons such as myself have to feel better about themselves in the presence of greatness such as yours by posting definitions): death of the author.

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of Krem. Still, he's a well-realized minor character who serves the thematic role he's chosen for, which is to be a literally contrast to the IB (someone who's identity is certain vs. someone who's identity is not, both struggling with the topic in a society that has clear views on who they should be in the end).

If Bioware introduces more high ranking human women in the same manner they introduced and handled Krem, then it will be a victory for them and for video-game writing.
The reason I asked to stay away from DAI is that, ultimately, this is the ME:A board and I would think we should stay on-topic regarding the ultimate subject matter. As for the ulterior motive accusation, well, you only need to look at the political context of where a term such as "diversity character" developed to see why I would look quite sceptically on anyone who uses the term.

This is only by way of explanation. I do very much appreciate that you took the time and energy to write out a thoughtful post. While, ultimately, I disagree with you on the writing part of Krem (I actually also didn't find him to be interesting; I just don't think he's second rate. To me, Scout Harding is the single most boring character I've ever encountered in a video-game, but that doesn't mean I think she's "second rate" or that being boring - to me - makes a character second rate.)

My reply is in spoilers (and lengthy):

Spoiler

As Pasquale1234 points out, the IB is a companion. He's a "focal" character, who has his own arc and a great deal of resource dedicated to his development. Krem isn't mean to be a standalone character. He's meant to be a side-character in the IB's personal story. Krem isn't meant to be someone important, like Alexius or Gaspard. He's meant to be a character on the level of, say, Dagna or Scout Harding. Actually, his most comparable character is Varric's Bianca, and IMO he's a better character than her.

As I explained above, Krem's role - from a literary perspective - is to provide a foil to the IB. He's also a bit of an exposition machine, and that's tied with his experience with the Chargers (to give them a face, when we get to the personal quest choice for the IB) and to provide background on why he's an exile and outcast too.

I think, however, it's completely misreading and misappreciating Krem to say: "Krem doesn't have an unbending personal ambition of Solas where his desire is to restore the Elven people to their former glory and retain his godhood, even if it means giving an orb of power to a megalomaniac such as Corypheus." Krem - to be only person who he can be - chose to risk Tevinter prison to express his identity. This willingness to stand up to authority is the direct contrast to the IB, who - when he has doubts - surrenders himself for re-education. Krem is meant to be the brave contrast to the IB's - at least in his early part of his narrative arc - cowardice.

Let me put it differently: Krem is meant to provide us with a different perspective on the IB, in the same way that the IB - from a lore perspective - is meant to provide us with a different perspective on the Qun. The Qun is all about identity: who you are is what you are, everything that defines your worth without allowing you to choose that for yourself. Krem is someone who -in virtue of his gender identity - is someone who has been defined his entire life on who other people believe him to be without being allowed to choose that for himself. Identity - whether it's gender identity or something else entirely - is at the core of the IB's story and the IB is part of that arc.

I can't argue with you that you didn't find Krem interesting. Like I said, interesting is subjective. Though to me it sounds like you primarily find supernatural characters (you list Flemeth and Cole) interesting. My post was really confrontational, and for that I apologize. But I think Krem is a first rate character concept that - ultimately - isn't well executed in practice by PW. But he's a "first rate" character concept because of how closely he ties in thematically with the IB's personal story. Look at the final quest:

When the IB sacrifices the chargers, he's broken. He's never fit in with the Qun, he's always chaffed under it (see how every time he talks about the Qun coming, unlike Sten from DA:O, he looks at it like a horrible disaster, that will wash away and crush this society in Southern Thedas he's come to love). That's the opposite of the choice that Krem makes, and to make that choice he has to sacrifice Krem.

The problem with the execution is that Krem ends up basically being the IB's morality pet (to use the TV tropes term) and is a bit of an exposition machine, but to look at Krem as somehow being there to fill a quota misses the richness not just of his character, but the IB's own character.

 

There is no ignorance of the character, the character was just boring. I don't buy your argument for a second. 

 

Mythos actually refers to the setting. In a fantasy world, it's the lives, the histories, the cultures, and all the various things that make up the world. Mythos does not mean theme, but I dare say Iron Bull's "theme" is not being an outcast. It is about choices, about reflection, about realizing what a world is once you've left it, and can see it from the outside. 

 

Krem's lore contradicts the lore of the game very much. Women were never outcasts in the world, even in Tevinter. The only evidence we see of discrimination along those lines is the priesthood (something Giselle quickly points out is nothing but propaganda) and historically, through Ser Aveline. The fact that it's so different is quite jarring, and no reason is given, so it looks like it was made precisely for this (rather pathetic) reason. 

 

Krem never talks anything about life in Tevinter other than the fact that Krem ran away when the lie was discovered. That's...actually really boring. Krem's personal story is actually quite boring. I never said it didn't exist, but it's cliche and predictable. It's Mulan without the fun Eddie Murphy parts. 

 

Nothing you have said makes the character interesting or important. The War Tables missions are forgettable (if one could GO on the missions, I might agree. But we don't) 

 

As for "political context", I'll introduce you to a concept: It's something that many "oppressed" people like to do in order to silence dissenting opinion. 

[chessplayer209]

If they want more women characters in Mass Effect, they could have the chef in the Normandy kitchen be a woman... or they could put some more "dancers" on the tables in Chora's Den.

[chessplayer209]

I've always thought the Mass Effect universe could benefit from having prostitutes in the game. Prostitutes are just a reality of life... they've always existed, and they always will. Having an open-world game where they aren't found anywhere isn't very realistic.

[Hadeedak]

Maybe I just go to too many small towns, but it's not like hookers are a part of scenery I expect to see...

[Wulfram]

Bakers are a reality of life, yet we haven't encountered any of them in Mass Effect.

[Hadeedak]

More shortbread for MEA.

[Sartoz]

Yeah from that perspective I can see what you believe he is well written. I should confess, in the multiple playthroughs I've had in DAI never saw Krem in such a manner, probably because I lacked the critical eye to see it.  

 

 Snip

 

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Speaking of Krem.

What was the purpose of the character,  other than to annouce the existence of Bull? Why even bother assigning more dialogue lines?

 

What a waste of the Word Budget.

[chessplayer209]

Bakers are a reality of life, yet we haven't encountered any of them in Mass Effect.

 

Streetwalkers/prostitutes walk around city streets in such a way as to draw attention to themselves so they get noticed by lots of people in the real world. Bakers don't. And anyway, there were a lot of places in the Mass Effect games on the citadel where food was being bought and sold, so your argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

[Hadeedak]

Streetwalkers/prostitutes walk around city streets in such a way as to draw attention to themselves so they get noticed by lots of people in the real world. Bakers don't. And anyway, there were a lot of places in the Mass Effect games on the citadel where food was being bought and sold, so your argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

 

I have literally never seen someone I could point to with any certainty as a streetwalker. Again, I'm generally in fairly rural areas, but I have been to several large cities. I have, however, seen many specialty bakeries as well as noodle shops and cooking supply stores. 

[chessplayer209]

Prostitutes can also be male, don't care about the percentages, it's a reality!

 

Yeah well, the percentages matter if we're putting them in for the sake of realism. You generally don't see male streetwalkers walking around in public. Lets get real: nearly all the time... they're women. Open world games should do their best to reflect reality, not some kind of politically correct fantasy of the forum's social justice warriors.

[Hadeedak]

I am being fairly real here: I don't think prostitutes are necessary windowdressing for a game. Certainly less reflective of my reality than bakeries. That's not a master agenda. It's a fact.

 

At any rate, unless they're highly ranked, prostitutes of either gender aren't terribly relevant to the topic. Annnnnnd... Now I'm going to make some bread.

[Battlebloodmage]

I've never seen a prostitute before in my life.

[chessplayer209]

I am being fairly real here: I don't think prostitutes are necessary windowdressing for a game. Certainly less reflective of my reality than bakeries. That's not a master agenda. It's a fact.

 

Yeah well not all parts of the world are like the rural area you say you live in. Think outside of your rural American bubble for a second.

 

I would agree with you that you wouldn't expect to see prostitutes in random places all around upper class areas of the citadel -- but to suggest you wouldn't find any prostitutes in areas where criminality is common such as Chora's Den or Omega in particular -- would be unrealistic.

[Hadeedak]

While my bread's rising: for all we know, we saw plenty of them. It's not like we got the lifestory of every NPC. Heck, we saw a grand total of one person smoking. 

 

But I don't know that having prostitutes around (and obvious) is a key step to 'realism'. In my experience (which isn't limited to the US -- my 'rural American bubble' extends to around all three Americas , including a few large cities), it's not. It's generally kind of a hokey shorthand in games for 'this place is kind of dubious', and personally I'd rather see passed out drunks to convey the iffiness. Because that's MY experience, in reality.

 

Again, I'm not actually against prositutes in the game. I do, however, take umbrage to the suggestion that they're necessary to convey reality.