Fun fact: The US Navy has more admirals than ships.
If we want to go the realism route, we should have to deal with a bloated bureaucracy that has admirals all over the Citadel filing paperwork, attending meetings, and hanging around waiting to see Sha'ira.
You forgot prostitutes.
Sample sizes don't need to be perfectly reflective of a whole's demographics. By your logic, a female admiral having a meeting with two male admirals in the real world is over representation, even though such a thing can easily happen.
Having one out of three admirals that make a physical appearance be a woman isn't over representation, because the rest of military still exists offscreen.
Ok, if that's the case, having zero high ranking women doesn't reflect underrepresentation either "because the rest of the military still exists offscreen." So there's no point for this stupid thread.
Can you give a logical reason for why having a female admiral or general actually put in a physical appearance and being a major player in the plot is a bad thing? Or are you going to run around hysterically crying "SJW!" and calling the thread stupid like you have already?Ok, if that's the case, having zero high ranking women doesn't reflect underrepresentation either "because the rest of the military still exists offscreen." So there's no point for this stupid thread.
Funny that... actual demographic studies on gamers and their spending habits would seem to break your assertion.
I looked at the article you linked, and no, it actually does not "seem to break my assertion" that women are a small minority of gamers here.
Apparently you didn't read the article very much past the title, because it clearly says in the article that while there is a large number of female "gamers," they are "gamers" who play casual games ON PHONES, not gamers who play games on CONSOLES and DESKTOP COMPUTERS as is the case with Mass Effect here. The market of people who play games on smartphones is not the same as the market of people who play games on consoles and desktop computers, so your article doesn't provide a shred of evidence for your point.
To quote you: "So yeah... I'd say you're WRONG."
Did you bother to read David Gaider's comments on having BETTER numbers than you "Joe Fanboy" on who is playing what? Oh, it seems you conveniently skipped by that bold-typed line, didn't you?
SMH as I mute and ignore you...
I looked at the article you linked, and no, it actually does not "seem to break my assertion" that women are a small minority of gamers here.
Apparently you didn't read the article very much past the title, because it clearly says in the article that while there is a large number of female "gamers," they are "gamers" who play casual games ON PHONES, not gamers who play games on CONSOLES and DESKTOP COMPUTERS as is the case with Mass Effect here. The market of people who play games on smartphones is not the same as the market of people who play games on consoles and desktop computers, so your article doesn't provide a shred of evidence for your point.
To quote you: "So yeah... I'd say you're WRONG."
I know I've said this before, but apparently it keeps needing to be said: What does real-world demographics have to do with this discussion anyways? Around 2/3 of ME players were mostly paragon; should paragon players have gotten twice as much story content? A stunning 8% of people sabotaged the genophage, so including that option was obviously pointless. And heck, most players don't even finish the games they are playing (I've heard estimates from around 10% to 25% for completion rates); does this mean that including endings is a big waste of time?
EDIT: Included a link.
Did you bother to read David Gaider's comments on having BETTER numbers than you "Joe Fanboy" on who is playing what? Oh, it seems you conveniently skipped by that bold-typed line, didn't you?
Yup I read them, and "not insignificant" =/= the majority. So the words you're referencing don't even support your argument in this case.
Did you bother to read David Gaider's comments on having BETTER numbers than you "Joe Fanboy" on who is playing what? Oh, it seems you conveniently skipped by that bold-typed line, didn't you?
SMH as I mute and ignore you...
And still with the utmost respect to BioWare; it can be easy to do something like cast mostly men in high power positions and not realize it.
Yeah it can be easy to cast mostly men in high power positions and not realize it because its a more realistic outcome given how male dominated the military is and how having a lack of women in leadership positions makes the game more realistic and better in general.
Yeah it can be easy to cast mostly men in high power positions and not realize it because its a more realistic outcome given how male dominated the military is and how having a lack of women in leadership positions makes the game more realistic and better in general.
and actively despises his fanbase.
200 years ago in most countries, only mens of noble birth were in high ranking positions in the military. I assume they couldn´t imagine the military of today.
What's the "realistic" number of Turians, Asari, and Krogan in the IRL military?
Realism =/= "good."
Besides, during my last two years in the AF, our squadron commander was a hispanic woman. I can only imagine the sh_tstorm if someone told her how "unrealistic" it was for a hispanic woman to be leading a maintenance squadron.....
What's the "realistic" number of Turians, Asari, and Krogan in the IRL military?
Realism =/= "good."
Besides, during my last two years in the AF, our squadron commander was a hispanic woman. I can only imagine the sh_tstorm if someone told her how "unrealistic" it was for a hispanic woman to be leading a maintenance squadron.....
That's anecdotal evidence that doesn't necessarily represent the military as a whole. That said, we're talking about generals and admirals, not maintenance squad commanders.
Of generals and admirals, only around 7% are women according to the CNN article I linked to earlier. That means that if there's 10 admirals and generals in Mass Effect, to accurately depict reality, less than 1 of them should be a woman if we're going to prioritize concerns about realism and immersion over the social justice warrior demands for affirmative action & political correctness.
Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2...ance/index.html
That's anecdotal evidence that doesn't necessarily represent the military as a whole. That said, we're talking about generals and admirals, not maintenance squad commanders.
Of generals and admirals, only around 7% are women according to the CNN article I linked to earlier. That means that if there's 10 admirals and generals in Mass Effect, to accurately depict reality, less than 1 of them should be a woman if we're going to prioritize concerns about realism and immersion over the social justice warrior demands for affirmative action & political correctness.
Mass Effect occurs in 2183. Your assumption that the percentage of women in the military will remain the same for the next 170 years is fundamentally flawed.
All these arguments about percentages and statistics don't really matter when we're talking about a central cast of just a handful of people. People can argue probability of a prominent character in a story being female 'til the cows come home, but to be perfectly frank, it don't mean dick.That's anecdotal evidence that doesn't necessarily represent the military as a whole. That said, we're talking about generals and admirals, not maintenance squad commanders.
Of generals and admirals, only around 7% are women according to the CNN article I linked to earlier. That means that if there's 10 admirals and generals in Mass Effect, to accurately depict reality, less than 1 of them should be a woman if we're going to prioritize concerns about realism and immersion over the social justice warrior demands for affirmative action & political correctness.
200 years ago in most countries, only mens of noble birth were in high ranking positions in the military. I assume they couldn´t imagine the military of today.
It has not really changed instead of "Nobles" it is now mostly people from privileged backgrounds.Same song different tune.
All these arguments about percentages and statistics don't really matter when we're talking about a central cast of just a handful of people. People can argue probability of a prominent character in a story being female 'til the cows come home, but to be perfectly frank, it don't mean dick.
Yeah.
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.
Look at Final Floptasy 15, how is this **** acceptable?
A 170 years ago it would have been more likely that Anderson would be a servant or something like that instead of being an admiral. If he was american, till the fields, slave. That we have more females in the military is a rather conservative assumption anyways. Perhaps we only have drones and commanding AIs because human reaction time is too low. Perhaps every soldier has genetic/cybernetic enhancements or is wearing powered armor, making physical differences meaningless. Perhaps we don´t have war anymore in a post scarcity society. Perhaps we hit the singularity and every human is digitized and downloads his mind in a custom grown body, if he wants to experience the physical world. perhaps humanity is gone extinct.
It has not really changed instead of "Nobles" it is now mostly people from privileged backgrounds.Same song different tune.
Still more inclusive than 1815 or so.
All these arguments about percentages and statistics don't really matter when we're talking about a central cast of just a handful of people. People can argue probability of a prominent character in a story being female 'til the cows come home, but to be perfectly frank, it don't mean dick.
No, actually the probability a general or admiral would happen to be a woman IRL matters significantly because when you go through the game and insert a given characteristic such as "female" throughout the game for the sake of filling diversity or affirmative action quotas in numbers that are much greater than what tends to be observed in reality -- it causes the majority of players who realize how rare it is in the real world to have so many female generals/admirals to come to the realization they were put there for political "diversity" or affirmative action purposes. When this is done repeatedly throughout the game, it detracts from the sense of immersion and realism the game has to offer its players.
Some will argue that many things in the Mass Effect universe are not perfectly realistic. And it's true, sometimes the physics of the universe may not always be perfectly realistic... but there's a difference between sacrificing a miniscule amount of scientific realism (that requires significant scientific knowledge to appreciate anyway) -- for purposes of advancing a story -- and sacrificing more significant amounts of everyday realism (such as realism concerning the # of women admirals in the military) which is only engaged in for political purposes.
Sacrificing technical/scientific realism to advance a story is unfortunate but sometimes necessary. Sacrificing basic/everyday realism for political purposes is both unnecessary and unfortunate. That's the difference.
Yeah.
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.
Not wanting a sausage fest =/= we need to replace characters like Hackett and Anderson with women to make forum SJWs happy. Mass Effect games had plenty of women in them as-is. I don't think anyone would say they were a "sausage fest" just because Anderson and Hackett were males. That would be ridiculous.
Sacrificing technical/scientific realism to advance a story is unfortunate but sometimes necessary. Sacrificing basic/everyday realism for political purposes is both unnecessary and unfortunate. That's the difference.
I'm not sure you can argue that military demographics would necessarily be the same in the spacefuture as they are in 2015. Just look at the handy visual graphic Jaquio posted - there's been an exponential change in gender of the armed forces, and it's not likely to plateau at the current levels and remain the same until ME1's timeframe.
That being said, hyperbole is fun!
Guest_Mon Chat_*
Yeah.
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.
Look at Final Floptasy 15, how is this **** acceptable?
Why can't the humans in ME look this good? Some human npcs look like neanderthal/human hybrids.
No, actually the probability a general or admiral would happen to be a woman IRL matters significantly because when you go through the game and insert a given characteristic such as "female" throughout the game for the sake of filling diversity or affirmative action quotas in numbers that are much greater than what tends to be observed in reality -- it causes the majority of players who realize how rare it is in the real world to have so many female generals/admirals to come to the realization they were put there for political "diversity" or affirmative action purposes. When this is done repeatedly throughout the game, it detracts from the sense of immersion and realism the game has to offer its players.
Some will argue that many things in the Mass Effect universe are not perfectly realistic. And it's true, sometimes the physics of the universe may not always be perfectly realistic... but there's a difference between sacrificing a miniscule amount of scientific realism (that requires significant scientific knowledge to appreciate anyway) -- for purposes of advancing a story -- and sacrificing more significant amounts of everyday realism (such as realism concerning the # of women admirals in the military) which is only engaged in for political purposes.
Sacrificing technical/scientific realism to advance a story is unfortunate but sometimes necessary. Sacrificing basic/everyday realism for political purposes is both unnecessary and unfortunate. That's the difference.
There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin (starting with the idea that ME only sacrifices a "miniscule amount" of scientific realism; there's not anything in ME that would withstand even the slightest bit of scientific scrutiny). But I'll focus on this: That the only possible reason why Bioware would want to include more women characters of higher rank is because they caved into pressure from evil SJWs, the Cultural Marxist conspiracy, etc. To begin with, Bioware developers have repeatedly insisted that they themselves want to include this kind of content: They like the idea of diversity in gaming. It's not something being imposed from the outside.
Secondly, couldn't it be that including this content makes the game more fun, at least for a minority of players? If the idea of diversity increasing someone's enjoyment of a game is an utter mystery to you, it might be worth imagining a hypothetical world for a moment: In this hypothetical world, the vast majority of straight male characters in pretty much all major forms of media are portrayed roughly how they would be portrayed on either Magic Mike or a Lifetime channel TV movie: They're male dancers to be ogled, potential rapists/abusers/murderers, accessories to the way more awesome female characters, etc. (EDIT: Haven't seen Magic Mike or much of the Lifetime channel, so I don't mean to s**t on them, but hopefully the stereotype I'm relying on is apparent enough). In these circumstances, it would be very refreshing for straight male consumers every time a work came along which didn't portray them in these ways, even if in this hypothetical world, it wasn't precisely demographically realistic to do so. And it might be reasonable for them to request that there be more works like this. The request being made on this thread is of precisely this sort, except with the roles reversed.
Thirdly, the idea that games are ever 'apolitical' is questionable at best. Mass Effect is shot through with all sorts of political ideas already: Cosmopolitanism vs nationalism, prejudice, the right of self-determination of peoples, etc. Writer Chris l'Etoile has come out and stated that the Geth/Quarian subplot was a thinly veiled metaphor for racial relations. So if you want politics out of the game, you're way too late to the party.
At the end of the day, I don't get why this is a controversial request. Women in leadership positions is not a new thing in scifi; both Star Trek and Babylon 5, just to name two franchises, have had plenty of women in positions of military leadership, and these franchises are quite old already. I can get being indifferent to the OP's request, but the strong resistance I'm seeing here mystifies me.
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