930 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

No, actually the probability a general or admiral would happen to be a woman IRL matters significantly because when you go through the game and insert a given characteristic such as "female" throughout the game for the sake of filling diversity or affirmative action quotas in numbers that are much greater than what tends to be observed in reality -- it causes the majority of players who realize how rare it is in the real world to have so many female generals/admirals to come to the realization they were put there for political "diversity" or affirmative action purposes.  When this is done repeatedly throughout the game, it detracts from the sense of immersion and realism the game has to offer its players.

 

Some will argue that many things in the Mass Effect universe are not perfectly realistic. And it's true, sometimes the physics of the universe may not always be perfectly realistic... but there's a difference between sacrificing a miniscule amount of scientific realism (that requires significant scientific knowledge to appreciate anyway) -- for purposes of advancing a story -- and sacrificing more significant amounts of everyday realism (such as realism concerning the # of women admirals in the military) which is only engaged in for political purposes.

 

Sacrificing technical/scientific realism to advance a story is unfortunate but sometimes necessary. Sacrificing basic/everyday realism for political purposes is both unnecessary and unfortunate.  That's the difference.

 

It's hard to take this sort of thing seriously when arguments predicate on the unreasonable whims of SJW's and people riding Affirmative Action's proverbial jock. 

 

In any case, the point I'm making is that such characters already exist, both in the fictional universe and in real life, and there is no reason why they absolutely couldn't find themselves wrapped up in the central plot of a fantastical story set in a time way beyond ours, beyond some dubious statistics that you assume would hold true hundreds of years in the future. A more pressing point though, is that with all the fantastical things that defy what we know of any single person capacity to solve even minor problems, among many other things, that this, of all things, should even come close to breaking one's suspension of belief. I think people have their priorities whacked. 

 

This is about as scientific and technical as Kent Hovind's "theories" on how the dinosaurs still walk among us. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Absolutely, and I've experienced it myself as a poor struggling writer But it's something an author has to do regardless. Most authors don't want their own prejudices informing their stories; I think most want to create vibrant worlds and characters that all readers will enjoy. But if, for example, you're a white person like me, you may finish the first draft of your story and realize there are no people of color in the story AT ALL.

For me, that's a problem. Yes, I rethought the world I had created. Can people of color exist in this world? If not, I want to make it so they can and that it makes sense. Can any of my main characters be people of color? Let's see how I can work that in as naturally as possible. It also forced me to self-examine why I had created a world full of white people in the first place. Clearly, on a subconscious level, white is default for me.

Writing constantly shifts between the creative and the critical. Otherwise, authors would simply spew out "spur of the moment" nonsensical bursts of creativity. The critic has to push the artist aside and examine the work with narrowed eyes, not just for content, but grammar, structure, pacing, etc. It should SEEM easy and effortless to the reader, but for the writer, it never is (unless you're a genius!)

I find it interesting that you can make an entire world of one ethnicity and not realize it. Are you not using the real world as a base? Is the real world not populated by various ethnicities and not limited to your own? How does this escape you when putting your imagination to work?

I've often wondered why in various media, one ethnicity beat out the rest and in such large numbers that it could be argued that other ethnicities were purposely excluded. The creators had to have realized what they were doing right?

I've done a little writing and world building myself and not once, NOT ONCE did I envision a world of one ethnicity. Not even alien worlds. Maybe it has something to do with me being a minority in my country and my experiences leading me to desire inclusivity in many things.

Apparently the experiences of an individual regarding their lives, their people, and their knowledge of the history of their people and their position in things has a significant psychological impact and it influences not only our behavior, but our ideas as well. I believe this may be the case for us both.

[KaiserShep]

I find it interesting that you can make an entire world of one ethnicity and not realize it. Are you not using the real world as a base? Is the real world not populated by various ethnicities and not limited to your own? How does this escape you when putting your imagination to work?

I've often wondered why in various media, one ethnicity beat out the rest and in such large numbers that it could be argued that other ethnicities were purposely excluded. The creators had to have realized what they were doing right?

I've done a little writing and world building myself and not once, NOT ONCE did I envision a world of one ethnicity. Not even alien worlds. Maybe it has something to do with me being a minority in my country and my experiences leading me to desire inclusivity in many things.

Apparently the experiences of an individual regarding their lives, their people, and their knowledge of the history of their people and their position in things has a significant psychological impact and it influences not only our behavior, but our ideas as well. I believe this may be the case for us both.

 

This reminds me of a discussion I once had with my father a long time ago when we were watching Star Trek, how aliens always had some sort of homogenous culture throughout their planets, because it made them a simple, manageable faction for the story.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah.
 
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.

 

Look at Final Floptasy 15, how is this **** acceptable?

 

 

 

You can always tell who the main guy is by how much of his head is being swallowed up by his anime hair. 

[Ahglock]

Why can't the humans in ME look this good? Some human npcs look like neanderthal/human hybrids.

 

That's good?  Even the strong tough dude looks effeminate. Which if that is their goal, mission accomplished but if not oops.  Still, not really my style.

 

Though I personally think its okay to have an all X cast.  Whether its all women, men, certain ethnicity or racial group go for it. If its something I will want to read, watch, play is another matter.  But sometimes things like that help build the story the creator is going for, and that is fine. 

[X Equestris]

That's anecdotal evidence that doesn't necessarily represent the military as a whole. That said, we're talking about generals and admirals, not maintenance squad commanders.
 
Of generals and admirals, only around 7% are women according to the CNN article I linked to earlier. That means that if there's 10 admirals and generals in Mass Effect, to accurately depict reality, less than 1 of them should be a woman if we're going to prioritize concerns about realism and immersion over the social justice warrior demands for affirmative action & political correctness.
 
Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2...ance/index.html

You want to rigidly adhere to statistics and realism? Let's rigidly adhere to statistics and realism, by taking your thinking to its logical conclusion. If less than one in ten admirals can be female to maintain "realism", then about one out of every five human characters has to be Chinese, and about another one in five have to be Indian. Or do you suddenly dislike rigidly adhering to statistics?

[Battlebloodmage]

Yeah.
 
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.

 

Look at Final Floptasy 15, how is this **** acceptable?

 

 

Didn't they say that it's their vision? They want to tell a story about male bonding, and the dynamics between manhood. I like playing as females, and often switch to females if I could, but this game is not about excluding females, but it's just the kind of story they want to tell is about male bonding. It's similar to Final Fantasy X-2 is about an all girl cast. The creator was really excited about Final Fantasy 13 and Lightning as the first female protagonist (Terra and Yuna are chopped liver apparently) and even give her her own game. 

[chessplayer209]

 the idea that games are ever 'apolitical' is questionable at best. Mass Effect is shot through with all sorts of political ideas already: Cosmopolitanism vs nationalism, prejudice, the right of self-determination of peoples, etc. Writer Chris l'Etoile has come out and stated that the Geth/Quarian subplot was a thinly veiled metaphor for racial relations. So if you want politics out of the game, you're way too late to the party.

 

Seeing obviously imposed gender quotas showing up in your game's casting and realizing it's SJWs at work dictating the types of characters you'll encounter in your game is not the same thing as enjoying a tasteful story meant to provide subtle and insightful commentary on bigger ideas like cosmopolitanism vs nationalism, prejudice, right of determination of people, etc. That should be obvious.

 

One is an enjoyable way to receive commentary on new ideas... the other is seeing the telltale signs that the SJW political correctness police trying to dictate what kind of content people can have in games and ensuring it depicts women or whatever else the way they want it depicted so the game conforms to the demands of their political agenda(s).  Essentially, it's the difference between art and having PC propaganda shoved into your games, in some ways.

[Battlebloodmage]

That's good?  Even the strong tough dude looks effeminate. Which if that is their goal, mission accomplished but if not oops.  Still, not really my style.

 

Though I personally think its okay to have an all X cast.  Whether its all women, men, certain ethnicity or racial group go for it. If its something I will want to read, watch, play is another matter.  But sometimes things like that help build the story the creator is going for, and that is fine. 

Square-Enix is a Japanese company. The standard of beauty can be different from the West. Look up J-pop bands and how they look. These characters adhere to those looks. Toned body and more soft face actually a lot more desirable in Asia rather than muscular scruffy look in the West. 

[Wolfryck]

                                                                         <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

How does this suggestion make the game better ?

 

Just wondering.

 

I have zero clue.

[Panda]

I find it interesting that you can make an entire world of one ethnicity and not realize it. Are you not using the real world as a base? Is the real world not populated by various ethnicities and not limited to your own? How does this escape you when putting your imagination to work?

I've often wondered why in various media, one ethnicity beat out the rest and in such large numbers that it could be argued that other ethnicities were purposely excluded. The creators had to have realized what they were doing right?

I've done a little writing and world building myself and not once, NOT ONCE did I envision a world of one ethnicity. Not even alien worlds. Maybe it has something to do with me being a minority in my country and my experiences leading me to desire inclusivity in many things.

Apparently the experiences of an individual regarding their lives, their people, and their knowledge of the history of their people and their position in things has a significant psychological impact and it influences not only our behavior, but our ideas as well. I believe this may be the case for us both.

 

Well at least fiction from my own country usually does have only ethnically Finnish people in it if the fiction is located to real world and Finland. I think it's mostly due to how heterogenous Finland is as country (more than Japan for example) and how there isn't that many immigrants around. So most of finnish books I have read do not have many ethnicities in it, especially if the book is historical fantasy. I guess fiction written today and about current age is more multicultural than fiction before here also, but I wouldn't still find it weird to find new book or movie from Finland to only include ethnically finnish characters either.

 

For this reason I didn't quite agree with people who were mad at Witcher not having PoC characters. Because it's based on Polish mythology and historical Poland and if such game was done from Finnish mythology it would be very hard to include PoC characters in it in the way that would make sense. It's quite same with historical and mythological pieces of different continents, I wouldn't expect fiction based african mythology to have white and asians characters around and not expect fiction based on asian mythology/history to have white and black characters in it depending on time period of course.

[Helios969]

So if the "strong tough dude looks effeminate", then these actors are really women in disguise, right?

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Guess you only look manly if you look like this...

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

...beefy, stoic, rugged and worn...possibly constipated.

Lol, constipated.  I gotta say the latter 3 do look more "manly" to me, (but I bet the former get laid more...if they were all regular joes instead of what they are.)

[chessplayer209]

So the SJWs want equal numbers of women in military leadership positions even though in reality only around 7% of them are in such positions so that feminists are happy with how women are portrayed in the game, even if it's totally unrealistic.

 

What next? Will the SJWs demand there's an equal number of male streetwalkers in GTA even though that is also totally unrealistic?

 

And then when mainstream GTA players see that and say "well hey, that's totally unrealistic! Don't spoil the immersion for us with your complete disregard for realism!" the SJWs will say "well there's a few other unrealistic things in GTA I can think of, so you should just have to deal this other unrealistic addition to the game as well to keep us SJWs happy!"

 

What's that? ​You resent having your GTA reduced to Saints Row 3 realism levels? Too bad, it's necessary to make the 8% of women who play the game happy even if it irritates 40% of the men. How reasonable!

[AlanC9]

So the SJWs want equal numbers of women in military leadership positions

No one asked for exactly equal numbers. You'd have noticed that if you actually read the thread instead of just shouting "SJWs are coming!"

It'd probably be helpful if we put down our ideal targets. Matching today's 7% would be really silly, of course. How about, say, 30%?

[AlanC9]

I find it interesting that you can make an entire world of one ethnicity and not realize it. Are you not using the real world as a base? Is the real world not populated by various ethnicities and not limited to your own? How does this escape you when putting your imagination to work?

Most stories aren't trying to include the entire world they're set in.

[chessplayer209]

It'd probably be helpful if we put down our ideal targets. Matching today's 7% would be really silly, of course. How about, say, 30%?

 

I don't see why matching today's 7% would be silly. You might say there's more women going into the military, but we could debate a while about why this might be and whether or not that trend would continue or not, or even decline. The only number you have data for is the 7% figure, so if it was going to be anything it would make sense to leave it at that.

 

Since the only generals/admirals we deal with in Mass Effect are Hackett and Anderson, and given we go with the 7% figure, that means there would be no surprise they all happen to be men, and everything is fine.

[Panda]

So the SJWs want equal numbers of women in military leadership positions even though in reality only around 7% of them are in such positions so that feminists are happy with how women are portrayed in the game, even if it's totally unrealistic.

 

What next? Will the SJWs demand there's an equal number of male streetwalkers in GTA even though that is also totally unrealistic?

 

And then when mainstream GTA players see that and say "well hey, that's totally unrealistic! Don't spoil the immersion for us with your complete disregard for realism!" the SJWs will say "well there's a few other unrealistic things in GTA I can think of, so you should just have to deal this other unrealistic addition to the game as well to keep us SJWs happy!"

 

What's that? ​You resent having your GTA reduced to Saints Row 3 realism levels? Too bad, it's necessary to make the 8% of women who play the game happy even if it irritates 40% of the men. How reasonable!

 

You keep saying same stuff about 7 % although that is just numbers for USA and people have pointed out graphs where trend has been forward lot more women joining up in military than before.

 

Also the game is scifi. Realism matters in terms of making cohesive world, but why it should follow USA's current days exact %'s of how many women there is compared to men in leading positions? That makes no sense and seriously would female military leader in scifi be really something so weird that it would break anyone's immersion? Likely not.

 

I don't know where you get that only 8% of women play the game and that gender division of things enjoyed in the game would be so big that 40% of men would be irritated over things that make women happy. I seriously doubt majority of players regardless of gender would even care if more of high ranking humans was female. That's such weird topic to get irritated over really.

[Wulfram]

No one asked for exactly equal numbers. You'd have noticed that if you actually read the thread instead of just shouting "SJWs are coming!"

It'd probably be helpful if we put down our ideal targets. Matching today's 7% would be really silly, of course. How about, say, 30%?

Somewhere around 1/3 seems about right for high ranking military personnel. It fits fairly well with what we see on the Normandy in ME1 and ME3. Of course, low numbers mean that treating it as a rigid quota is likely to be silly.

High ranking non-military personnel I don't see why they shouldn't be 50-50, though again that's not a quota

[Gramorla]

many "western" countrys have long time not allowed that womans worked in more than support roles in the military. In the US Army, 2 years ago 2013 was the date who woman finaly  are allowed in units that are tasked with direkt combat. It's not a wonder that there are not so many female generals there.

As an another example: In Germany it was in 2001 where womans where allowed to work in all areas of military. The proportation of  woman in higher military ranks is constant increasingly since this date.

 

Mass Effect plays more than 150 in the future, so the statistik data of this age is worthless to determine the number of womans in high ranking military positions.

[KaiserShep]

So the SJWs want equal numbers of women in military leadership positions even though in reality only around 7% of them are in such positions so that feminists are happy with how women are portrayed in the game, even if it's totally unrealistic.

 

What next? Will the SJWs demand there's an equal number of male streetwalkers in GTA even though that is also totally unrealistic?

 

And then when mainstream GTA players see that and say "well hey, that's totally unrealistic! Don't spoil the immersion for us with your complete disregard for realism!" the SJWs will say "well there's a few other unrealistic things in GTA I can think of, so you should just have to deal this other unrealistic addition to the game as well to keep us SJWs happy!"

 

What's that? ​You resent having your GTA reduced to Saints Row 3 realism levels? Too bad, it's necessary to make the 8% of women who play the game happy even if it irritates 40% of the men. How reasonable!

 

So which argument is it? You first said that their low numbers makes it improbable that they'd be part of the main plot, to the point of breaking suspension of belief, but now you're saying that the bad ol' SJW's are asking for them to have equal numbers among them in the military, the latter of which is patently false anyway. 

 

Who are these people that would be irritated by it? Didn't any of these slack-jawed yahoos grow up on Star Trek? 

[X Equestris]

So the SJWs want equal numbers of women in military leadership positions even though in reality only around 7% of them are in such positions so that feminists are happy with how women are portrayed in the game, even if it's totally unrealistic.
 
What next? Will the SJWs demand there's an equal number of male streetwalkers in GTA even though that is also totally unrealistic?
 
And then when mainstream GTA players see that and say "well hey, that's totally unrealistic! Don't spoil the immersion for us with your complete disregard for realism!" the SJWs will say "well there's a few other unrealistic things in GTA I can think of, so you should just have to deal this other unrealistic addition to the game as well to keep us SJWs happy!"
 
What's that? ​You resent having your GTA reduced to Saints Row 3 realism levels? Too bad, it's necessary to make the 8% of women who play the game happy even if it irritates 40% of the men. How reasonable!

You've erected a giant strawman. No one here is saying anything like what you're arguing against.

I seriously doubt 40% of men would be irritated by the minor changes we're talking about in this thread. Of course, you know what they say about statistics on the Internet.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Well at least fiction from my own country usually does have only ethnically Finnish people in it if the fiction is located to real world and Finland. I think it's mostly due to how heterogenous Finland is as country (more than Japan for example) and how there isn't that many immigrants around. So most of finnish books I have read do not have many ethnicities in it, especially if the book is historical fantasy. I guess fiction written today and about current age is more multicultural than fiction before here also, but I wouldn't still find it weird to find new book or movie from Finland to only include ethnically finnish characters either.

For this reason I didn't quite agree with people who were mad at Witcher not having PoC characters. Because it's based on Polish mythology and historical Poland and if such game was done from Finnish mythology it would be very hard to include PoC characters in it in the way that would make sense. It's quite same with historical and mythological pieces of different continents, I wouldn't expect fiction based african mythology to have white and asians characters around and not expect fiction based on asian mythology/history to have white and black characters in it depending on time period of course.

I completely agree with you. I'm a huge fan of the Avatar series and expect to only see Asians depicted in it as it's based off of their mythology.

However, something like the Wheel Of Time series by Robert Jordan is completely made from imagination and not from any mythology that i'm aware of and yet everyone is white the world over. Throughout history, no matter the climate, everyone always has been and always will be white. Elements may be borrowed from real world non white cultures, but the people portraying these elements in the series are all white. I haven't gotten very far into the series and may have misinterpreted some things so please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

The Drenai series by David Gemmell is also completely made up and yet the world contains many various peoples and ethnicities with many of them being prominent figures and main characters.

I believe the reasons for these differences lie with the creators and their influences and also their desires. The Wheel Of Time series was recommended to me by a huge fan of it. He was a white guy. It never entered his mind that the complete lack of non whites in a fantasy setting with no discernable reason for it might alienate someone who is not white. Many years later I was discussing Game Of Thrones and fantasy novels with a small group of very amicable white folk. The Wheel Of Time series came up. I expressed my displeasure for the series and detailed my reasons why. All I got were puzzled looks. The things I mentioned never even occurred to them.

[WildOrchid]

Yeah.
 
I am going to be blunt, I don't really care about statistics about combat capable operatives, I just don't want a sausage fest.

 

Look at Final Floptasy 15, how is this **** acceptable?

 

 

snip sausage fest pic

 

Well, the ladies and gay dudes appreciate it so let them have their fanservice.

But tbh, it's the reason why I didn't bother with this game. I might youtube it to see how it is one day, though.