930 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

In Exile is right social justice warrior sounds bad ass. I want a non parody television show now with an awesome metal theme song. Social Justice Warrior!!

[CuriousArtemis]

 

I find it interesting that you can make an entire world of one ethnicity and not realize it. Are you not using the real world as a base? Is the real world not populated by various ethnicities and not limited to your own? How does this escape you when putting your imagination to work?

 

Well, yes and no. What I was doing was probably using previous works of fantasy (that I had read and enjoyed) as a base. And in 98% of the fantasy I grew up with, all the characters were white. (Think Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones type stuff. There are some time dark-skinned people, but they are almost always "bad" or "savage.") Science fiction as a genre suffers from this same problem, as well as a gender and sexuality problem.

 

I've done a little writing and world building myself and not once, NOT ONCE did I envision a world of one ethnicity. Not even alien worlds. Maybe it has something to do with me being a minority in my country and my experiences leading me to desire inclusivity in many things.

 

Yes, I believe so. Because the things that I deal with on a personal level - my sex and gender identity - I did actually write into the story. I had plenty of female characters and a host of different non-heterosexual sexualities. It would simply never occur to me to write a story that consists entirely of men or straight and cis people. In fact I would find such a story boring, so why would I write it? 

 

Now imagine if you are a straight white cis male, and you live in a western country, and you are middle-class if not upper middle-class. It may be very natural to simply write the world the way YOU see it and experience it. You create a fantasy world where most of the leaders are straight white men. You don't have any non-straight romances in your story. You don't have any people of color.

 

HOPEFULLY, a lightbulb will go off over your head and you'll realize what you've done. It also helps you realize something about yourself, and I think this is just as important as the writing itself. Realizing that you exist in a privileged state is important. I'm white, and yet of course I'm a tremendous advocate for civil rights and social equality; I wholeheartedly support #BlackLivesMatter. But then I sat back and wrote this all-white fantasy world. Now this happened some three or four years ago (yes I'm still working on the same story, sigh, WRITING IS HARD), and I keep that in mind now as I think about new stories or start writing them (which I really shouldn't do until I finish this one... well, it is finished, but I'm in the editing process now). 

 

And I think that is what we ask of the ME writers. I don't hate them because they've inadvertently created a world that favors men in positions of power. But I would ask that they realize they've done such a thing, and that it is damaging to their player base (it benefits neither men nor women to play in such a world). Like me, I hope they examine the world they've created and try to make it more egalitarian - it is science fiction, after all, not a contemporary story; not only does it take place far in the future, but it contains whole new civilizations where "male" does not necessarily have to equal "more powerful." (And yet it almost always does in science fiction and fantasy).

 

Anyway I am rambling and also at work now so I'll stop here

[chessplayer209]

You keep saying same stuff about 7 % although that is just numbers for USA and people have pointed out graphs where trend has been forward lot more women joining up in military than before.

 

I don't really care about numbers from other countries, like, say, Sweden -- because knowing how Sweden is filled with radical feminists, any increase in women in the military from a country like that would quite possibly be due to some weird feminist quota system or affirmative action program they have there that wouldn't necessarily be representative of how things would be done in the USA.

 

If you create feminist policies to encourage more women to go into the military or two incentivize their promotion into higher ranks, then I would believe it might be higher than 7% who would wind up as generals or admirals, but I'd rather that kind of ridiculous policy was left out of my Mass Effect games, so I went with the USA's 7% in this case which comes from this CNN article.

 

Yeah, someone else posted some graph, but the graph shows women who are officers, not necessarily women who are generals or admirals. I don't know if "officers" means the same thing as "generals or admirals," and I also don't know where the source of the data someone else posted is, but I will go with my 7% data because my data is from CNN -- a reputable source.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Depends. I used to live in the East Village myself, and my life looked like episodes of Seinfeld, or maybe Friends. There were plenty of nonwhites around, but they were all extras.

I grew up in this city. My friends are multi ethnic and it's always been this way. It would have taken significant effort on my part for all my friends to be of my ethnicity because throughout my life, at work or at school, I was and am surrounded by multiple ethnicities.

Maybe this isn't the case for you. Somehow.

[FKA_Servo]

I have such a hard time believing that some of the posters in this thread are real people.

[Fixers0]

And I think that is what we ask of the ME writers. I don't hate them because they've inadvertently created a world that favors men in positions of power. But I would ask that they realize they've done such a thing, and that it is damaging to their player base (it benefits neither men nor women to play in such a world). Like me, I hope they examine the world they've created and try to make it more egalitarian - it is science fiction, after all, not a contemporary story; not only does it take place far in the future, but it contains whole new civilizations where "male" does not necessarily have to equal "more powerful." (And yet it almost always does in science fiction and fantasy).

 

This has to be a joke, right, Beceause IMO it's really an outlanids statement, If you truely feel this way then I am very sorry for you. I very much doubt that  99% of Bioware's fanbase is going to be upset by some minor demografic  thing that is hardly worth calling an issue.

 

Outside this thread I don't think i've ever heard anybody make the claim that the Mass Effect universe inherently favours men or that men in Mass Effect are inherently more powerful, because it's just not the case. Regardless, I'd rather have creative freedom than faux egalitarianism.

[AlanC9]

I grew up in this city. My friends are multi ethnic and it's always been this way. It would have taken significant effort on my part for all my friends to be of my ethnicity because throughout my life, at work or at school, I was and am surrounded by multiple ethnicities.
Maybe this isn't the case for you. Somehow.

That's the way it happens to be, yep. My RW social life's been mostly spent in the indie rock (nerdy subset) and beer geek scenes, and people of color are awfully rare in both. Throw in the cinephile and fine art events and it gets even whiter.

Work's different, of course.

[FKA_Servo]

Regardless, I'd rather have creative freedom than faux egalitarianism.

 

Ok, but... let's say they do exercise their creative freedom, and it results (as it inevitably will) in accusations of faux egalitarianism. What then?

 

I think we're back to what, now, page 2 of this thread? Probably got a good 50-100 pages in it, though. I'm sure plenty of posters here will continue to produce startlingly insightful and original thoughts on the topic.

[X Equestris]

but I'd rather that kind of ridiculous policy was left out of my Mass Effect games, so I went with the USA's 7%

Did you really just say "my Mass Effect games"?

[AlanC9]

If you create feminist policies to encourage more women to go into the military or two incentivize their promotion into higher ranks, then I would believe it might be higher than 7% who would wind up as generals or admirals, but I'd rather that kind of ridiculous policy was left out of my Mass Effect games, so I went with the USA's 7% in this case which comes from this CNN article.

Where are you going with this? ME should aim for 7%, because US statistics right at this moment are going to be the norm for all future time?

[KaiserShep]

Where are you going with this? ME should aim for 7%, because US statistics right at this moment are going to be the norm for all future time?

Won't someone please think of Canadian statistics?

[Treacherous J Slither]

Well, yes and no. What I was doing was probably using previous works of fantasy (that I had read and enjoyed) as a base. And in 98% of the fantasy I grew up with, all the characters were white. (Think Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones type stuff. There are some time dark-skinned people, but they are almost always "bad" or "savage.") Science fiction as a genre suffers from this same problem, as well as a gender and sexuality problem.


Yes, I believe so. Because the things that I deal with on a personal level - my sex and gender identity - I did actually write into the story. I had plenty of female characters and a host of different non-heterosexual sexualities. It would simply never occur to me to write a story that consists entirely of men or straight and cis people. In fact I would find such a story boring, so why would I write it?

Now imagine if you are a straight white cis male, and you live in a western country, and you are middle-class if not upper middle-class. It may be very natural to simply write the world the way YOU see it and experience it. You create a fantasy world where most of the leaders are straight white men. You don't have any non-straight romances in your story. You don't have any people of color.

HOPEFULLY, a lightbulb will go off over your head and you'll realize what you've done. It also helps you realize something about yourself, and I think this is just as important as the writing itself. Realizing that you exist in a privileged state is important. I'm white, and yet of course I'm a tremendous advocate for civil rights and social equality; I wholeheartedly support #BlackLivesMatter. But then I sat back and wrote this all-white fantasy world. Now this happened some three or four years ago (yes I'm still working on the same story, sigh, WRITING IS HARD), and I keep that in mind now as I think about new stories or start writing them (which I really shouldn't do until I finish this one... well, it is finished, but I'm in the editing process now).

And I think that is what we ask of the ME writers. I don't hate them because they've inadvertently created a world that favors men in positions of power. But I would ask that they realize they've done such a thing, and that it is damaging to their player base (it benefits neither men nor women to play in such a world). Like me, I hope they examine the world they've created and try to make it more egalitarian - it is science fiction, after all, not a contemporary story; not only does it take place far in the future, but it contains whole new civilizations where "male" does not necessarily have to equal "more powerful." (And yet it almost always does in science fiction and fantasy).

Anyway I am rambling and also at work now so I'll stop here

Lord of the rings has non whites in other areas of the world. The story doesn't take place in any non white areas though and apparently people don't like to travel very far lol.

Game of thrones has non whites as well. The people of the Summer Isles in the area below Westeros are depicted as being black and not savage afaik. The exiled Prince Xalabar Xho has been at court in Kings Landing for years trying to get someone to help him raise an army and retake his position. Then there are the people Esteros and many are depicted as being middle eastern or something.

Both these settings are similar to Dragon Age in that non whites exist in other areas of the world but the stories don't involve these areas or the people of these areas in any large capacity.

Now if I were a straight white male and i'm creating a story based on the world as I see it, this imagined world would contain many if not all of the ethnicities that exist in real life that i'm aware of or at least some semblance of them. What is it about being a straight white male that you believe would cloud my eyes to the existence of other peoples? Do I not watch tv? Do I not read books? Do I not watch movies? Do i not surf the web? Do I not leave my freaking house? How can i know that i live in a world of various peoples and still largely if not altogether exclude all peoples but my own? I myself could only do that on purpose. But why would I do that? What possible reasons could I have for doing such a thing? Hrmm? Tell me.

[Ahglock]

Ok, but... let's say they do exercise their creative freedom, and it results (as it inevitably will) in accusations of faux egalitarianism. What then?

I think we're back to what, now, page 2 of this thread? Probably got a good 50-100 pages in it, though. I'm sure plenty of posters here will continue to produce startlingly insightful and original thoughts on the topic.

Almost all threads should end page 5 due to the repetitive nature of comments.

I'll repeat my basic belief on this subject. The artist shouldn't feel forced to make a decision based on these concerns. But if a race/sex/orientation is not a issue for the character why not spread the love. Being a white male had nothing to do with hacket he could easily been a Asian female and the character would have the same impact and story. So go for it. In mass effect the implied setting is such that race/sex/orientation in general have no Impact on your story. So you minds as well be inclusive.

But if not being inclusive fits or helps the story stand up for your stories integrity.

[Jaquio]

Yeah, someone else posted some graph, but the graph shows women who are officers, not necessarily women who are generals or admirals. I don't know if "officers" means the same thing as "generals or admirals," and I also don't know where the source of the data someone else posted is, but I will go with my 7% data because my data is from CNN -- a reputable source.

 

First, the source I pulled from was from the Department of Defense Military Personnel Statistics website by PBS, so your sly attempt to discredit my source is nonsense.

 

http://www.pbs.org/f...government7.htm

 

 

 

Second, your argument that "16 percent of women are officers, but only 7% of women are generals or admirals, so that's all that matters" is so silly that I don't even know where to begin.

 

It takes time to become an admiral or general.  The average length of time for someone to reach the highest echelon in the military is 30-40 years of service.  40 years of service is the cutoff because that's the when they force you to retire.

 

So, if they average is 30-40 years, then what we need to look at is the number of women in the military at that time.  So, 35 years ago (smack in the middle) was 1980.

 

Guess how many women were in the military in 1980?  Guess.

 

For those of you playing at home, it's 8.5 percent.

 

So, shock of all shocks, 8.5 percent of military officers were women in 1980, and 35 years later a little under 8 percent of generals and admirals are women.

 

So now that the number is 16 percent, I wonder how many women will be generals and admirals in 2050?

 

And before you try to undermine my statistics, they were pulled by Rutgers using the Department of Defense Personnel Statistics:

http://iwl.rutgers.e... 2009 Final.pdf

[chessplayer209]

Where are you going with this? ME should aim for 7%, because US statistics right at this moment are going to be the norm for all future time?

 

None of the feminist SJWs have posted anything but personal theories as to how the 7% figure will change over time, so it would make sense for Bioware to default to what exists today, not what exists in some SJW feminist pipe dream in a hypothetical scenario that might not ever actually happen 100 years from now.

[FKA_Servo]

Almost all threads should end page 5 due to the repetitive nature of comments.

I'll repeat my basic belief on this subject. The artist shouldn't feel forced to make a decision based on these concerns. But if a race/sex/orientation is not a issue for the character why not spread the love. Being a white male had nothing to do with hacket he could easily been a Asian female and the character would have the same impact and story. So go for it. In mass effect the implied setting is such that race/sex/orientation in general have no Impact on your story. So you minds as well be inclusive.

But if not being inclusive fits or helps the story stand up for your stories integrity.

 

Thing is, everything's in the eye of the beholder. And there are some people here who regard the tiniest bit of diversity as outright pandering in the face of the "proper" way of things.

 

I can only imagine what the very intellectual chess enthusiast downthread would say to Hackett's character as an asian woman. Frankly, I think that that's the sort of fan who deserves to be disappointed.

[BioWareMod01]

Hello everyone. Let's keep it civil and on topic in here. Thank you.

[X Equestris]

None of the feminist SJWs have posted anything but personal theories as to how the 7% figure will change over time, so it would make sense for Bioware to default to what exists today, not what exists in some SJW feminist pipe dream in a hypothetical scenario that might not ever actually happen 100 years from now.

All you have to do is extrapolate from that graph. It's very simple.

Honestly, you sound like General Ripper right now. Replace commies with "SJW feminists" and precious bodily fluids with "my Mass Effect games", and you couldn't tell the difference.

[Jorji Costava]

None of the feminist SJWs have posted anything but personal theories as to how the 7% figure will change over time, so it would make sense for Bioware to default to what exists today, not what exists in some SJW feminist pipe dream in a hypothetical scenario that might not ever actually happen 100 years from now.

 

What is scifi other than coming up with theories about how things will be in the future? What you're doing right now is exactly equivalent to the following specious piece of reasoning: "We could all come up with personal theories about what transportation technologies will exist in the future, but the only thing we really have to go on is what we have right now, so we should all assume that people will still be using only internal combustion engines for personal transportation 200 years from now. That means all of those flying car thingies have to go--they're completely unrealistic!!" Projecting that 200 years from now, things will be exactly as they presently are seems like exactly the least interesting way to do science fiction.

[Fixers0]

All you have to do is extrapolate from that graph. It's very simple.

 

Hardly, when it comes to social movements and the like statistics seldom prove to be reliable material, because they do not take into account the myrad of factors that surround such developments. At best we can fall into conjecture on what might potentionally happen.

[X Equestris]

Hardly, when it comes to social movements and the like statistics seldom prove to be reliable material, because they do not take into account the myrad of factors that surround such developments.

A few decades ago, there were no female admirals or generals. Now they number about 7% of the admirals and generals in the US military. We may not be able to make a precise guess about what that would be by the time Mass Effect is set in, but it will almost certainly be more than seven percent. And as mentioned above, saying that "only 7% of them are women now, that's all we have to go on, so you have to keep that percentage for realism" makes no sense when talking about speculative fiction.

[In Exile]

Where are you going with this? ME should aim for 7%, because US statistics right at this moment are going to be the norm for all future time?

Why is today the ideal time, I'm tempted to ask. If Sweden is influenced by "radical feminists" (which is a stupid position because, among other things, they have one of their most right wing governments ever and have for some time), why is America today not more influenced than the America of yesterday, or the America of 30 years ago? Why should it be 7%? Why not 3%? 5%?

Engaging with this intellectually vacuous discussion hurts all of us.

[KaiserShep]

None of the feminist SJWs have posted anything but personal theories as to how the 7% figure will change over time, so it would make sense for Bioware to default to what exists today, not what exists in some SJW feminist pipe dream in a hypothetical scenario that might not ever actually happen 100 years from now.

Something something something SJW, something something something complete.

[Gramorla]

you can see many female human marines, security guards etc. all over the places in ME 1-3. So there no reasons why there are no in higher positions. We just don't see many admirals etc. in the games altogther.

 

I agree with the demand to mind a representation of both genders in the higher positions. This also applies to turians ... als high ranked female turians only appears in the books and comics.

[In Exile]

you can see many female human marines, security guards etc. all over the places in ME 1-3. So there no reasons why there are no in higher positions. We just don't see many admirals etc. in the gams altogther.

I agree with the demand to mind a representation of both genders in the higher positions. This also applies to turians ... als high ranked female turians only appears in the books and comics.

As I said upthread, we might query why Bioware chose to create new models in ME2 for, say, the drell and vorcha rather than for female Turians and female Salarians or Krogan (which, notably, they did do for male Quarians).