930 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

2) Can you name a few? And if that's true: so what? Female generals or admirals are extremely rare in real-life, and probably still somewhat rare in the MEU.

Here's a few 

[AlanC9]

1) Perhaps. Still, that does not account for women having different preferences, different priorities and make different life-choices than men. Even if somehow through bio-augmentation women would become as physically capable as men, you'll always see less female soldiers and even fewer female high-ranking officers.

This would be an argument against absolute parity. Is anyone actually pushing for absolute parity?

2) Can you name a few? And if that's true: so what? Female generals or admirals are extremely rare in real-life, and probably still somewhat rare in the MEU.

This is an argument about percentages. What percentage do you figure would be appropriate? "Somewhat rare" isn't a well-defined term.

3) How is what I said literal nonsense?

You said "women aren't capable of becoming superior officers," and defined "superior officers" to mean anyone with a rank higher than Shepard's. This means that no woman can ever attain a rank higher than Lt. Commander, unless "aren't capable of becoming" means something other than "aren't capable of becoming."

If you're going to do silly rhetorical overstatement, at least remember that you're doing it.

[shodiswe]

Sure, whatever. Doesn't really affect the game in any way except for a bit of self gratification for those with a vested interest in this. As long as it doesn't become like Inquisition where men in positions of power are more endangered than black rhinos.

Inquisition had men in positions of Power?

[Ridwan]

Oh lord......

 

1. Yes, there are female generals.

 

2. No, combat experience is not required to become a high-ranking officer.

 

3. Physical prowess is not the most important quality to have in a military leader.

 

Yes, I'm a military veteran, and clueless civilians amuse me.

 

You wouldn't get my respect as a soldier if you can't preform basic feats that's required. Every sergeant and officer I knew during my conscription was in amazing shape. And that inspired us. 

[slimgrin]

Heeere comes the entitlement threads. More burqa wearing African lesbian Asari please Bioware. I see a lack of DIVERSITY in your game here. Pls fix. 

[Wulfram]

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And here I thought mom's are women of power.

 

Anyway, more consistent at what? and better how? 

 

Supposed the game has three High female Muckity-Mucks, but storywise have only a few lines, how is that better, consistent or improves the game? And you must be on board with me when I say that ME:A is NOT the story about three High female Muckity-Mucks.

 

More consistent with the rest of the world, which generally shows women as being able to compete on an equal basis with men, and employed in considerable numbers in military and paramilitary roles.

 

The game would be better because it would be showing good, consistent world building.  Just as the game would be better if the way that Krogan reproduction and the genophage worked was consistent, or the Quarian's immune system, or FTL travel.

[Sartoz]

More consistent with the rest of the world, which generally shows women as being able to compete on an equal basis with men, and employed in considerable numbers in military and paramilitary roles.

 

The game would be better because it would be showing good, consistent world building.  Just as the game would be better if the way that Krogan reproduction and the genophage worked was consistent, or the Quarian's immune system, or FTL travel.

 

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You do realize that ME:A is an action RPGish sci-fi game and NOT a real world simulation, yes?

 

"Compete on an equal basis" is an illusion. 

 

".. consistent world building.."

The game is about exploration, combat, bonding with your squad and LIs.... "world building" it is NOT.

[Wulfram]

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You do realize that ME:A is an action RPGish sci-fi game and NOT a real world simulation, yes?

 

"Compete on an equal basis" is an illusion. 

 

".. consistent world building.."

The game is about exploration, combat, bonding with your squad and LIs.... "world building" it is NOT.

 

Then what is the codex for?

[S.W.]

ME is set in the 22nd century. Social norms have likely changed, quite drastically in some places, in the passage of 150 years or so - how much, or how little, is a matter of debate, but there is scope for statements such as "sexism is no longer a problem" to be fairly realistic. I think it doesn't make sense, therefore, to hold ME's levels of gender equality rigorously in comparison to current standards. Whilst high-ranking political representation of women may still be lacking in many high-GDP European countries, it is quite likely that might have changed by 2173. Female presidents, leaders, MPs, ambassadors, etc.

 

(I'm not touching the military. Not my area of expertise, and I also don't care.)

 

That said, I think BW are mostly ok on human women, mainly due to the very small amount of high-ranking officials you do meet - just Anderson, Hackett, and Udina, really. Doesn't need to be 100% representative of the entire human race with so few people. There are plenty of prominent women who aren't as up-there. I'd like it to be something for writers to keep in mind, though.

 

What I think is weirder, though, story-wise, is the lack of female aliens. There's not as much reason why alien species - especially ones which have been in space for a while, and are supposedly "more advanced" - would hold onto archaic gender norms, or even have them in place in the first instance. I understand the technical reasons behind this - designing and coding a new character model is work. It's still annoying. At least come up with a decent excuse in lore if you can't be bothered - have more monogendered species, like the asari, or make it so that men & women are so close in appearance that a secondary model isn't necessary, like the salarians (although the lack of dalatrasses on the presidium is weird, like isn't politics dominated by women for salarians?).

 

At the end of the day, BW have their artistic freedom to do what they what with characters blah etc blah. I think most people don't want token representation, but rather, just would like to encourage BW to think outside of the box now and again - because in a futuristic setting with loads of aliens, why would human gender norms always apply? Be creative with what you do with other species. If you're restricted by technical constraints, do something different rather than just implying all women never leave their planet for some weird reason.

[Han Shot First]

I'm not talking strictly military.  Look at my first post, I'm talking mostly talking about people like Anderson, Udina, TIM and Hackett.

 

Even if I was talking military, I don't think Ash and Kaidan really count.  Their role in the game is essentially to follow orders not give them, and they're not Admirals.  At best they'd command a ship, not a fleet.

 

Let me try a list, though odds are I'll forget someone particularly among the minor characters

 

Military

 

Men:

Admiral Hackett

Admiral Anderson

Admiral Kahoku (minor)

Admiral Mikhailovich (minor)

General Petrovsky (Cerberus)

(unnamed Admiral who get blown up)

(other unnamed admiral who gets blown up)

 

Women:

Admiral Hannah Shepard (minor, might not exist)

(Unnamed Admiral who gets blown up)

 

Civilian

 

Men:

TIM

Udina

President Huerta (offscreen)

Ambassador Osoba (minor)

 

Women:

(Ambassador who doesn't appear in the games and so I don't know the name of)

 

Things get a lot better if you step a rank or two down below "flag rank" or equivalent, I'm not going to deny that.  Ashley, Miranda, Kahlee Sanders, Captain Riley, Doctor Chakwas, various senior mercs and security guards like Matsuo and Jedore etc etc.  But there's a sense of a glass ceiling being there, because of the make up of the very top.

 

There are a couple of high ranking Alliance female officers if you include the war assets. The First Fleet, the SSV Leipzig, and the original SSV Hong Kong (one of the ships destroyed in the first battle of the Citadel) were all said to be commanded by women. 

 

None of them are characters you actually meet in the game, but there are only two high ranking Alliance characters that play a major role in the series: Anderson and Hackett. 

 

Considering you run into so few Alliance Admirals or Generals in the series of either gender, it might be unfair to criticize Bioware for the ones you do meet all being male. It is a very small sample size, and military organizations do tend to be overwhelmingly male. While women are serving in military organizations around the world in larger numbers, it is probably unlikely that there will ever be gender parity. Chalk it up to either nurture or nature (or a little of both), but its just something most women aren't interested in.

 

That being said I would have no problem with more high ranking female military characters in the next game. I'd just think it might slightly unfair to criticize Bioware for a lack of diversity in its characters. I didn't find that to be the case at all with Mass Effect, and if you look at the characters who play a major role in the series (whether or not they are military), it is roughly equal.

 

It can even be argued that after Shepard (who can potentially be a female as well), the characters who play the largest roles in defeating the Reapers are all women. Tali recovers the evidence that incriminates Saren and gets him stripped of his Spectre status, Liara is crucial in locating Ilos, recovering Shepard's body for the Lazarus Project, and recovering the plans for the Crucible, and Miranda both headed the Lazarus Project and plants the tracker on Kai Leng that leads back to Cronos. Tali, Liara, and Miranda might not be Alliance military, but they're all much more important characters than Kahoku or Mikhailovich.

[General TSAR]

We need a female Like Tela Vasir, Preferably Asari

 

The only Asari besides Samara and Detective Anaya worth a damn, wish we had her as a squadmate. 

[FKA_Servo]

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You do realize that ME:A is an action RPGish sci-fi game and NOT a real world simulation, yes?

 

"Compete on an equal basis" is an illusion. 

 

".. consistent world building.."

The game is about exploration, combat, bonding with your squad and LIs.... "world building" it is NOT>

 

Strange, because seriously, of all the things you list there, the world building is the one thing that the series manages to do very well. Miles better than any of the other stuff.

[Sartoz]

Then what is the codex for?

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Think of it as a dynamic encyclopedia. It's there for reference if you need to look up something.  Also, it may work like in DAI. Some Codex entries are empty, until you discover them.... a character, race, weapon or tech for example.

[Sartoz]

Strange, because seriously, of all the things you list there, the world building is the one thing that the series manages to do very well. Miles better than any of the other stuff.

 

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What is world building?  I've played many a 4x game and in the context of the OP about consistence and equality there is no such thing. If world building = territorial expansion, then again it has nothing to do with the OP's suggestion about more female  in position of Power.

 

Now, in the DA game worlds, women are in powerful postions and are in the military and no one bats an eye about that. Equally, the ME game worlds have women in powerful positions. Now, we may not see many, but hey, there is a limited word budget = limited dialogue = limited # of characters that support the story.

 

So, I think it comes down to the meaning of world building, as Shep and co. did no such thing in my eyes and neither did the Quizzie.

 

To further this discussion, I need a definition of world building in this context.

[Heathen Oxman]

You wouldn't get my respect as a soldier if you can't preform basic feats that's required. Every sergeant and officer I knew during my conscription was in amazing shape. And that inspired us.

And I served under many fat@$$es.

And being able to pass basic military standards is not the same thing as being in amazing shape.

[The Heretic of Time]

Here's a few 

 

That page is completely empty. xD

 

Are you deliberately trying to prove my point or...?

[Ridwan]

And I served under many fat@$$es.

And being able to pass basic military standards is not the same thing as being in amazing shape.

What kind of army has fat asses? I never saw a single fat officer in the Danish army, all of them were built as tanks, or lean machines.

[Seboist]

And I served under many fat@$$es.

And being able to pass basic military standards is not the same thing as being in amazing shape.

 

Which further shows how unsuited women are for soldiering when the vast majority can't even meet the basic physical standards as men.

[Former_Fiend]

That page is completely empty. xD

 

Are you deliberately trying to prove my point or...?

 

Did you miss the links? It was a template, not a list. Has links to 24 different female generals.

[Heathen Oxman]

What kind of army has fat asses? I never saw a single fat officer in the Danish army, all of them were built as tanks, or lean machines.

 

I wasn't in the army.

[Heathen Oxman]

Which further shows how unsuited women are for soldiering when the vast majority can't even meet the basic physical standards as men.

 

Men who can pass basic military standards aren't necessarily in "amazing shape."

 

Which was my point.

[Heathen Oxman]

1. No one denied that. But they are in the vast, vast, vast minority.

2. Maybe not real combat experience, but training and doing lots of practice missions (and succeeding those) is definitely required.

3. Physical prowess is still very important though and as a leader of a squad you're expected to be in top physical shape.


Funny though, in the transgender discussion you claimed to be transgender. When we were talking about autism you claimed to be autistic. When we were talking about depression you claimed to be depressed. Now we're talking about the military and you claim to be a military veteran.

How convenient that you always seem to be the thing that the discussion is about.

 

1. The OP isn't asking for a majority of the high-ranking officers to be female.

 

2. Combat training is not a requirement for being a high-ranking officer.

 

3. Uh-huh. Sure.

 

And I respond to things that I find interesting and are relevant to me. 

[Ridwan]

I wasn't in the army.

What branch were you in that had fat asses?

[Heathen Oxman]

What branch were you in that had fat asses?

 

The Air Force.

[KaiserShep]

Men who can pass basic military standards aren't necessarily in "amazing shape."

Which was my point.

The Air Force is a fair example.

Edit: lol you beat me.